why me Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 2 hours ago, MustardSeed said: I’m not sure I understand why someone who is a prophet can’t be flawed. This is my theory. I think he had righteous desires but he was also human. Power (from God! So heady) can make people do some pretty odd things. I personally am positive God knows me and that I won’t be going that direction, and that my eternity will reflect my level of devotion and I’ll be at peace. The rest of you can do whatever you want. I can't disagree with you. I am of the same opinion, in regards to my own devotion. Joseph before anything else was human who spent most of his life trying to do what God desired.
why me Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 3 hours ago, JAHS said: If there is no clear answer and no revelation about it, but only speculation and opinion, what else can be done? My point. We mortals have much to be concerned with on this earth without agonizing over eternal principles that requires speculation and opinion. That being said, if I put myself in a woman's shoes in Nauvoo and in Salt Lake and my husband was asked to take another wife, I wouldn't like it. But I assume that he could always refuse. It was forced on someone at gunpoint. But it is also true, that some of Joseph's plural wives did receive a revelation that they couldn't refuse because the message was so strong.
why me Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Peacefully said: Is it possible Joseph truly believed he received revelation but got it wrong, and God magnified his efforts anyway? Maybe our Heavenly Father makes good out of man’s mistakes when done in good faith. I think it hurts the hearts of many women and men to consider sharing their beloved spouse for eternity. We should not brush off that concern. I would doubt this because of section 132. Polygamy was a test both for the woman and the man. I think that both sexes could suffer because of it as it was happening. It is not easy juggling one relationship never mind two or three at the same time. I wouldn't see polygamy through sexual eyes. If so, it would also be tough to be a man or a woman. Much better to see it with spiritual eyes.
Peacefully Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, why me said: I would doubt this because of section 132. Polygamy was a test both for the woman and the man. I think that both sexes could suffer because of it as it was happening. It is not easy juggling one relationship never mind two or three at the same time. I wouldn't see polygamy through sexual eyes. If so, it would also be tough to be a man or a woman. Much better to see it with spiritual eyes. It doesn’t have to be seen through “sexual” eyes to be tough. The majority of time spent in marriage is doing things other than having sex. Why do so many get hung up on the sexual aspects? Are they that repressed? Edited December 6, 2021 by Peacefully 2
Fether Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 3 minutes ago, Peacefully said: It doesn’t have to be seen through “sexual” eyes to be tough. The majority of time spent in marriage is doing things other than having sex. Why do so many get hung up on the sexual aspects? Are they that repressed? They get hung up on it because the only two possible reasons for plural marriage is either God commanded it or men wanting more sex. There is more history of one than the other. 1
why me Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 18 minutes ago, Peacefully said: It doesn’t have to be seen through “sexual” eyes to be tough. The majority of time spent in marriage is doing things other than having sex. Why do so many get hung up on the sexual aspects? Are they that repressed? It comes with the past on these boards. In the past, many critics equated polygamy and Joseph Smith with his libido. It was all about the sexual for the critics. But that was in the past. I haven't seen such posts here recently.
Teancum Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Peacefully said: It doesn’t have to be seen through “sexual” eyes to be tough. The majority of time spent in marriage is doing things other than having sex. Why do so many get hung up on the sexual aspects? Are they that repressed? It is not just about sex. It is about emotional intimacy, building a relationship and a family, spending time together. One man with many wives makes all of this more difficult. 2
Teancum Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fether said: They get hung up on it because the only two possible reasons for plural marriage is either God commanded it or men wanting more sex. There is more history of one than the other. There is likely only history of one. But historically it is also about power and wealth as well. Edited December 6, 2021 by Teancum
katherine the great Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Peacefully said: Why do so many get hung up on the sexual aspects? Are they that repressed? Yes. 3
rodheadlee Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 6 hours ago, Teancum said: And what of the women who married two men and loves them both? I already answered that. It's fine by me. I just used an example in my own life.
longview Posted December 6, 2021 Posted December 6, 2021 On 12/5/2021 at 4:36 PM, longview said: On 12/5/2021 at 12:39 PM, Teancum said: And what if the women does not want to just be passed to someone? What is <IF> she would prefer to remain single? That may be what the 2nd and 3rd degrees are for within the Celestial Realm. Quote So God will punish the woman? I thought your first question had to do with a woman NOT desiring to be in a marriage partnership? (see the above red-letter grammar correction) So my first answer is that 2nd and 3rd degrees in the Celestial Kingdom do NOT require a marriage sealing but is necessary for the first degree. Your followup question is confusing. If the woman does NOT want to be in a marriage partnership ("passed to someone") then it seems the lower degrees would be the next logical step. Then why would you think the lower degrees to be punishment for the woman? It would be punishment only in the sense that she would NOT have Eternal Increase. BUT she would have the privilege of being eternally in the presence Heavenly Parents. I read somewhere many years ago that Celestial Singles will minister to the new round of generation of the gods (but don't ask me for the reference).
Teancum Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, rodheadlee said: I already answered that. It's fine by me. I just used an example in my own life. Sorry I did not see it when I responded. Edited December 7, 2021 by Teancum
Teancum Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 38 minutes ago, longview said: I thought your first question had to do with a woman NOT desiring to be in a marriage partnership? (see the above red-letter grammar correction) So my first answer is that 2nd and 3rd degrees in the Celestial Kingdom do NOT require a marriage sealing but is necessary for the first degree. Your followup question is confusing. If the woman does NOT want to be in a marriage partnership ("passed to someone") then it seems the lower degrees would be the next logical step. Then why would you think the lower degrees to be punishment for the woman? Sorry for the grammar error. I am referring to say a woman who was married in this life but for whatever reason does not have an eternal marriage. Will she simply become a plural wife to someone? What if she would prefer not to? So she Celestial 1 or 2? Why is it a punishment? I don't know. Maybe it isn't. All we know is she may be a servant angel to those "worthy" of a higher glory. Does not sound appealing really. But who knows? You don't. I don't either. 38 minutes ago, longview said: It would be punishment only in the sense that she would NOT have Eternal Increase. BUT she would have the privilege of being eternally in the presence Heavenly Parents. I read somewhere many years ago that Celestial Singles will minister to the new round of generation of the gods (but don't ask me for the reference). Like I said serve those allegedly more "worthy."
Fether Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Teancum said: There is likely only history of one. Based on a secular approach, you are absolutely correct.
JLHPROF Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Teancum said: It is not just about sex. It is about emotional intimacy, building a relationship and a family, spending time together. One man with many wives makes all of this more difficult. And working through difficult things increase faith. Couldn't be a connection could there? Unless picking marigolds is the goal. Edited December 7, 2021 by JLHPROF
Calm Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Unless picking marigolds is the goal. Make it snapdragons and jasmine and I could go for that. 2
longview Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Teancum said: I am referring to say a woman who was married in this life but for whatever reason does not have an eternal marriage. Will she simply become a plural wife to someone? We are given a foreshadowing and a lot of symbolisms. You should not try to gauge Heavenly potential using the carnal things of mortal earth. Do not rely on the arm of flesh. Neither should you make it sound like it will be downer for her. In the Grand Council before the creation, Heavenly Father described to us spirit children the Plan of Happiness. From Job 48:7: When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Will she simply become a plural wife to someone? What if she would prefer not to? So she Celestial 1 or 2? Why is it a punishment? I don't know. Maybe it isn't. All we know is she may be a servant angel to those "worthy" of a higher glory. Does not sound appealing really. But who knows? You don't. I don't either. Eternity is forever. I am thinking that being given the opportunity to participate in the Work that God is doing would be mind-blowing joyful. But there will be a lot more people in the Telestial Kingdom than in the Terrestrial. And probably a lot more people in the Terrestrial than the Celestial. We are free to choose. The scriptures talk about being able to "ABIDE" in a kingdom of glory if you are able tolerate it. 3 hours ago, Teancum said: Like I said serve those allegedly more "worthy." Why say "allegedly" ? God knows what he is doing. Do not be fearful but be cheerful and have faith in the Plan of Happiness. Mortal earth is an amazing laboratory in which we are given a physical body and some incredible experiences.
rodheadlee Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 4 hours ago, Teancum said: Sorry I did not see it when I responded. No worries.
kimpearson Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 Could any of you tell me the specific good that came from polygamy? How did it improve lives? How did it strengthen relationships between a husband and his wives? How did it improve the relationship between parents and children? How did it bring families together so that all involved were happier than with monogamy? I have read my polygamist family's journals and the only thing that came out of polygamy for them was one man had so many kids he ignored most of them. His wives were constantly complaining that he didn't give them enough time. There was no increased spirituality even though my polygamist great grandfather held high positions many of his children ran with a pretty wild crowd including Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. 1
Calm Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) My great, great grandmother said living as a plural family was the closest experience in mortality to the love of God and family one would experience in the Celestial Kingdom. She also apparently felt it taught good housekeeping discipline since she claimed the women in monogamous marriages might look down on the sister wives in pity, but you could tell it was the plural wives with the quality homes because their steps were daily swept and the monogamous homes sadly neglected outside and therefore inside. So much for community sisterhood…. I am thinking the top was from a good day, the bottom not so good. She was the one who told her husband it was time to get permission and suggested a sister to join their family. Edited December 7, 2021 by Calm 3
JLHPROF Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 5 hours ago, kimpearson said: Could any of you tell me the specific good that came from polygamy? You seem to be of the opinion that because the practice was difficult, unpleasant to go through at times, feelings got hurt, people had to be more independent, that this means it couldn't be from God. Are those things in our lives not literally the things that make us turn to God, pray more, grow faith, work to overcome the natural man? I'm not going to try and convince you of anything since your mind appears completely made up. But I will say you seem to have the wrong view of trials and difficulties. Just because something is hard or unpleasant doesn't make it wrong. Conversely just because something brings constant peace doesn't make it right. Sorry, but real blessings come through rough roads, not smooth ones. Exaltation will absolutely require a willingness to sacrifice all things, including feelings, peace, and comfort. "Let us here observe that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation....When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do His Will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering and that he has not sought nor will he seek His face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life." 3
Teancum Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: And working through difficult things increase faith. Couldn't be a connection could there? Unless picking marigolds is the goal. Sure. Let's just give you all sorts of problems and suffering just to increase your faith.
Teancum Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 9 hours ago, longview said: Why say "allegedly" ? God knows what he is doing. Do not be fearful but be cheerful and have faith in the Plan of Happiness. Mortal earth is an amazing laboratory in which we are given a physical body and some incredible experiences. Allegedly because your position is based on faith and feelings.
Teancum Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 13 hours ago, Fether said: Based on a secular approach, you are absolutely correct. well LDS people approach it secularly for everyone but one person.
CA Steve Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 23 minutes ago, Teancum said: Sure. Let's just give you all sorts of problems and suffering just to increase your faith. There is a direct relationship between what a religion demands and the level of loyalty (faith if you will) adherents have for that religion. It does not, however, have any bearing on the truthfulness of the religion in question. 1
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