Cordelia Posted January 3, 2022 Posted January 3, 2022 Continuing on the validation topic: There is a really wonderful app called Love While Parenting that teaches a lot about loving and effective ways to communicate with your family. It's done a lot of good for my husband and I. 2
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 Have they taken out the footnotes in the beginnings of plural marriage essay? Sure looks like it. https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng
Calm Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Have they taken out the footnotes in the beginnings of plural marriage essay? Sure looks like it. https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/plural-marriage-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints?lang=eng Could be your settings? I couldn’t get them to work in my phone, but they work fine on my tablet…unless you are talking about something else. What footnotes are missing for you? Edited January 26, 2022 by Calm
Orthodox Christian Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 On 12/5/2021 at 4:22 PM, Navidad said: I think you have clearly and lucidly explained (in a few words) the LDS theology about life in the celestial glory and the core principles of exaltation for eternity. Just stating a point of view, and meaning no offense by it, I also believe that the vast majority of non-LDS folks in the world would simply shake their heads in disbelief at your explanation and that rational reasonable folks would or could believe such a doctrine. That may be why it is not taught to investigators prior to commitment to baptism and membership. It is also why folks are directed to the Book of Mormon and not the D&C prior to baptism. Am I correct in asserting that none of what you have explained is contained in the Book of Mormon? Are missionaries encouraged to share this doctrine with candidates? In my fifth year of faithful attendance in an LDS ward, I have never heard what you described above in a sacrament service, Sunday school (gospel doctrine), or an elder's quorum. Of course I have never been in a Women's Relief Society meeting, so I don't know if it is taught there. I will have to ask my wife. Even I, a friend of almost all things LDS, shake my head in disbelief at this vision of eternity. Jacob 2 in the BOM is my standard! Even the church seminary study manual for seminary teaching which I believe is limited to members, clearly warns in the study of this issue - "Do not speculate about whether plural marriage is a requirement for the celestial kingdom. We have no knowledge that plural marriage will be a requirement for exaltation." You seem to be implying that the "willingness" for the same is what is necessary for exaltation, not the fact of living it eternally. I appreciate what you wrote, its clarity and from my limited knowledge, its accuracy, but I am still shaking my head! I'm shaking my head
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 On 12/4/2021 at 11:48 AM, TheTanakas said: I have a few questions about D&C 132:61-63. I have a few answers for those questions. On 12/4/2021 at 11:48 AM, TheTanakas said: Why are virgin females the focus of plural marriage? (v. 61). I assume the Lord considers all women to be virgins unless they are married. On 12/4/2021 at 11:48 AM, TheTanakas said: Is 10 an ideal number of wives or just a maximum? (v. 62). The ideal number of wives for each man is one. 10 is likely the maximum number of wives one man can handle time-wise to be able to give each enough time alone with him for affection. Mortal men still need some time to sleep and there are only 7 days in a week. On 12/4/2021 at 11:48 AM, TheTanakas said: Why is polygamy necessary for exaltation? (v. 63). It seems to be a math problem. Unless there are the same number of men as there are women who would qualify for exaltation if they were married, either a woman would need to marry a man who is already married because there are no more men who qualify for exaltation, or a man would need to follow the same principle only because there are not the same number of men and women. Only so many males and females have been or will be born on this planet, and each of us will choose whether or not to qualify for exaltation. Some may choose not to be exalted because they don't want to be married or share a spouse.
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 On 1/26/2022 at 1:05 PM, Orthodox Christian said: I'm shaking my head Are you shaking your head up and down, or side to side? Or all around in a circle? Please clarify.
Calm Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, James 1 5 said: It seems to be a math problem. There are more males born than females and more males die before the age of accountability, so the Celestial Kingdom starts from an imbalance of too many males. Quote Unless there are the same number of men as there are women who would qualify for exaltation if they were married, either a woman would need to marry a man who is already married because there are no more men who qualify for exaltation, or a man would need to follow the same principle only because there are not the same number of men and women So you are thinking it is just as possible polyandry will be the method to take up worthy singles desiring marriage? Also why not allow marriage with God’s children from other worlds since there are an infinite number of them? Edited January 28, 2022 by Calm 2
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, Calm said: There are more males born than females and more males die before the age of accountability, so the Celestial Kingdom starts from an imbalance of too many males. If you are right about all of that, I am stumped. Or maybe we should not be thinking of total numbers and instead in terms of time and location. 20 years ago when I was still single there were more women than men in the singles ward I attended. If polygamy was still allowed a man could have married more than one of those women instead of those other women deciding to wait until they could find their own husbands. 6 minutes ago, Calm said: So you are thinking it is just as possible polygyny will be the method to take up worthy singles desiring marriage? I'm not sure I understand you. Polygyny is about males having more than one spouse, and yes I believe males have or may have more than one wife. 6 minutes ago, Calm said: Also why not allow marriage with God’s children from other worlds since there are an infinite number of them? I'm open to that. Or would have been before I got married. As I am I try not to think about having more than one wife and I would be perfectly satisfied with just her for all of my eternity.
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 2 hours ago, James 1 5 said: I assume the Lord considers all women to be virgins unless they are married. Given the historical precedence and the actions of those given this revelation I don't think your assumption is correct. 1
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 1 minute ago, JLHPROF said: Given the historical precedence and the actions of those given this revelation I don't think your assumption is correct. Why not? Do you know of any instance of our Lord ever saying any woman was old? My assumption may be wrong but it makes sense to me, logically.
JLHPROF Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 21 minutes ago, James 1 5 said: Why not? Do you know of any instance of our Lord ever saying any woman was old? My assumption may be wrong but it makes sense to me, logically. In my opinion (and I emphasize the my opinion part), given how many of Joseph and the Brethren's plural wives were already married I don't think you can assume that the Virgin requirement refers to women "unless they are married." Either Joseph and his peers ignored the revelation they received or they understand virgin to mean something different (perhaps not sealed to anyone else). 2
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: In my opinion (and I emphasize the my opinion part), given how many of Joseph and the Brethren's plural wives were already married I don't think you can assume that the Virgin requirement refers to women "unless they are married." Either Joseph and his peers ignored the revelation they received or they understand virgin to mean something different (perhaps not sealed to anyone else). Okay. Point taken. Our Lord used the words "have vowed to no other man" which I interpreted to mean they were not married, so I assumed that was a descriptive comment regarding those virgin (young) women. Our modern usage of the word virgin has changed from what it was in our Lord's mortal days. A virgin woman referred to a young woman. And pure indicated she had not defiled herself or had not been defiled by a man by having sexual relations before marriage. 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. 62 And if he have aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
Calm Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 3 hours ago, James 1 5 said: 3 hours ago, Calm said: I'm not sure I understand you. Polygyny is about males having more than one spouse, and yes I believe males have or may have more than one wife. Oops…I meant polyandry.
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Calm said: So you are thinking it is just as possible polyandry will be the method to take up worthy singles desiring marriage? Maybe just as possible but I don't think just as likely because I believe there will likely be more women ready for celestial glory than men even if everyone wanted to be married. I may be wrong but I believe women are generally better people than men. And I am saying this as one who is a man.
Calm Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 8 minutes ago, James 1 5 said: Maybe just as possible but I don't think just as likely because I believe there will likely be more women ready for celestial glory than men even if everyone wanted to be married. I may be wrong but I believe women are generally better people than men. And I am saying this as one who is a man. And I am saying as a woman who is aware of the sins of herself and plenty of other women sitting in the pews that I think that perception is likely based on cultural beliefs about women and what are female social behaviors in our culture (there are other cultures where men attend church more and do the things that are seen as more righteous behaviour) and behaviours that are interpreted in our culture as spiritual when they aren’t rather than actual righteousness of women compared to men (and it is more about pride and willingness to repent since any sin no matter how small that is treasured will keep someone out of the CK). I really wish men in the Church stopped thinking of themselves as somehow less capable of goodness than women. At the very least it is an insult to God who has given men the blessing of serving in offices of the Priesthood. 2
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 6 minutes ago, Calm said: And I am saying as a woman who is aware of the sins of herself and plenty of other women sitting in the pews that I think that perception is likely based on cultural beliefs about women and what are female social behaviors in our culture (there are other cultures where men attend church more and do the things that are seen as more righteous behaviour) and behaviours that are interpreted in our culture as spiritual when they aren’t rather than actual righteousness of women compared to men (and it is more about pride and willingness to repent since any sin no matter how small that is treasured will keep someone out of the CK). I really wish men in the Church stopped thinking of themselves as somehow less capable of goodness than women. At the very least it is an insult to God who has given men the blessing of serving in offices of the Priesthood. I wasn't talking about men in the church. I believe the men in the church are among the best men in all of the world. I was talking about men generally, and I didn't join the church until age 28 so I knew and still know a lot about men of the world. A good man is hard to find. Most men I have known out of the church have not been very good. Good women are not AS hard to find but yes I know that many women are not very good. And the best women inspire good men to be better men. I'll swear to that.
The Nehor Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 4 hours ago, James 1 5 said: I have a few answers for those questions. I assume the Lord considers all women to be virgins unless they are married. The ideal number of wives for each man is one. 10 is likely the maximum number of wives one man can handle time-wise to be able to give each enough time alone with him for affection. Mortal men still need some time to sleep and there are only 7 days in a week. It seems to be a math problem. Unless there are the same number of men as there are women who would qualify for exaltation if they were married, either a woman would need to marry a man who is already married because there are no more men who qualify for exaltation, or a man would need to follow the same principle only because there are not the same number of men and women. Only so many males and females have been or will be born on this planet, and each of us will choose whether or not to qualify for exaltation. Some may choose not to be exalted because they don't want to be married or share a spouse. Does ban evasion disqualify someone for exaltation? 1
Calm Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, James 1 5 said: I wasn't talking about men in the church. I believe the men in the church are among the best men in all of the world. I was talking about men generally, and I didn't join the church until age 28 so I knew and still know a lot about men of the world. A good man is hard to find. Most men I have known out of the church have not been very good. Good women are not AS hard to find but yes I know that many women are not very good. And the best women inspire good men to be better men. I'll swear to that. Again, an insult (unintentional) imo to God whose children men are, who are made in his image. Why not trust God who believes his work is to bless all men and women with immortality and eternal life? Edited January 28, 2022 by Calm 1
James 1 5 Posted January 28, 2022 Posted January 28, 2022 Just now, Calm said: Again, an insult (unintentional) imo to God whose children men are, who are made in his image. It's not God's fault when his children choose to behave badly, on a consistent basis, as if unaware that they are behaving badly when they are consistently doing bad things. God made us all good with the agency to choose how we want to be. And he still gives or tries to give us good thoughts to help us know how we ought to behave. So this isn't about God. This is about how we choose to be.
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