Plural marriage, the priesthood, and exaltation

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I would think the anthropologist in you would find them fascinating.
For example, they publicly broke with the religion that led them to be polygamists and attempted to live polygamy as a "lifestyle choice" instead of a practice based in religion.

Motivations for religious practices are interesting.  Motivations for continuing difficult religious practices when you have abandoned a religion would have to be hard to come by.

I thought they still considered themselves to be members, even though they don't live near a congregation and so can't actually attend anything?

[katherine the great]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I would think the anthropologist in you would find them fascinating.

I find the women fascinating. For instance (as I just said), why would such intelligent women willingly attach themselves to a man who does not work hard to provide for them and their children? Mating with the most attractive male (eg: the one with access to the most resources or potential to provide well, aka: an alpha male) is the usual reason for females to choose polygynous relationships. Instead, Kody is not particularly intelligent, charismatic or hard working. The only asset I see is semi decent hair.

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I thought they still considered themselves to be members, even though they don't live near a congregation and so can't actually attend anything?

Nah...they got the boot a while back according to the tabloid sites

-  https://www.thelist.com/219562/the-real-reason-the-sister-wives-family-was-kicked-out-of-their-church/

- https://www.sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/1131231/kody-brown-and-wives-exiled-from-polygamist-church/

Which would explain why their fashion and appearances changed too.

 

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

Kody is a horrible husband, using any standard but I think especially as a polygamist husband.  If he has a bad relationship with one of his wives he ignores her and their problems and goes and plays house with the wives he is getting along with at the moment.  And it's practically abusive because while he can go and get his emotional, mental, and physical needs met through his other wives, the ones that he doesn't want to deal with have no way to get those needs met, yet are trapped in the relationship if they want to keep their religious beliefs.

I used to think that he was just an idiot but now I think he's despicable. 

 

 

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I’ve always seen Kody as the least of the players. The wives all seem intelligent and hard working. What in the world do they see in this mullet sporting man-child?  He does not fit the description of an alpha male at all. 

I thought you two would like this meme. I went and joined a private FB group of "Sister Wives" fans after someone mentioned it on this thread. I've been on it for a couple of weeks or so. Someone posted this meme just now that's hilarious!

[Analytics]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think you often confuse sympathy (feeling sorrow for another) with empathy (the ability to understand and share the feelings of another), but really, I think we've probably said all there is to say on it.  Probably time to agree to disagree.  

Just to give you guys a common enemy to gang up on and thereby come together in fellowship and harmony, I'll offer my perspective.

The LDS scriptures are not the word of God. They are simply writings that were made up in ancient history and in the 19th century. They were written by men (and men only) who, by 21st-century standards, simply didn't have a lot of insight into God, morality, or reality.

Once you understand that, these issues all go away and it all makes sense.

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

I thought you two would like this meme. I went and joined a private FB group of "Sister Wives" fans after someone mentioned it on this thread. I've been on it for a couple of weeks or so. Someone posted this meme just now that's hilarious!

That’s the stuff nightmares are made of. 😂

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

I thought you two would like this meme. I went and joined a private FB group of "Sister Wives" fans after someone mentioned it on this thread. I've been on it for a couple of weeks or so. Someone posted this meme just now that's hilarious!

Merri looks pretty good as a dude!

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Just to give you guys a common enemy to gang up on and thereby come together in fellowship and harmony, I'll offer my perspective.

The LDS scriptures are not the word of God. They are simply writings that were made up in ancient history and in the 19th century. They were written by men (and men only) who, by 21st-century standards, simply didn't have a lot of insight into God, morality, or reality.

Once you understand that, these issues all go away and it all makes sense.

You certainly don’t mince words. 😳

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Just to give you guys a common enemy to gang up on and thereby come together in fellowship and harmony, I'll offer my perspective.

The LDS scriptures are not the word of God. They are simply writings that were made up in ancient history and in the 19th century. They were written by men (and men only) who, by 21st-century standards, simply didn't have a lot of insight into God, morality, or reality.

Once you understand that, these issues all go away and it all makes sense.

It's a dirty job but someone's got to do it right?😀

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Nah...they got the boot a while back according to the tabloid sites

-  https://www.thelist.com/219562/the-real-reason-the-sister-wives-family-was-kicked-out-of-their-church/

- https://www.sheknows.com/entertainment/articles/1131231/kody-brown-and-wives-exiled-from-polygamist-church/

Which would explain why their fashion and appearances changed too.

 

I read the first link. I’m wary since they confused the fundamentalist church with our church. Maddie tried to get baptized in our church in 2015, not the fundamentalist one.

I’ll check out the other link. I hate She Knows as a site. They are so biased in their reporting. 

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I find the women fascinating. For instance (as I just said), why would such intelligent women willingly attach themselves to a man who does not work hard to provide for them and their children? Mating with the most attractive male (eg: the one with access to the most resources or potential to provide well, aka: an alpha male) is the usual reason for females to choose polygynous relationships. Instead, Kody is not particularly intelligent, charismatic or hard working. The only asset I see is semi decent hair.

I think you are being kind with your assessment of his hair.  The rest of the post I totally agree with. 

I was a prison guard in the early 1980's while I attended school.  Ervil LeBaron,  fundamentalist polygamist leader and murder was incarcerated while I was there.  Several times I would escort him to the visitor room. He always had visits from his many wives.  They were all young, dressed well (no prairie stuff), and looked poised and professional. LeBaron on the other hand was 30 years older, sloppy, and looked like someone's crazy uncle.  Oh, and dead eyes.  He had dead eyes.  I could never figure out why so many women wanted to be with him.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I think you are being kind with your assessment of his hair

😂

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

was a prison guard in the early 1980's while I attended school.  Ervil LeBaron,  fundamentalist polygamist leader and murder was incarcerated while I was there.  Several times I would escort him to the visitor room. He always had visits from his many wives.  They were all young, dressed well (no prairie stuff), and looked poised and professional. LeBaron on the other hand was 30 years older, sloppy, and looked like someone's crazy uncle.  Oh, and dead eyes.  He had dead eyes.  I could never figure out why so many women wanted to be with him  

Fear? Brainwashing? I think I saw an interview with one of his daughters who was very frank about the crazy shenanigans that went on in that cult. I think there was a lot of fearmongering, abuse and manipulation. I don’t get that vibe from Kody’s wives. He doesn’t seem to use those tactics and yet they flock to him. There’s no accounting for taste. 😁

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, katherine the great said:

😂

Fear? Brainwashing? I think I saw an interview with one of his daughters who was very frank about the crazy shenanigans that went on in that cult. I think there was a lot of fearmongering, abuse and manipulation. I don’t get that vibe from Kody’s wives. He doesn’t seem to use those tactics and yet they flock to him. There’s no accounting for taste. 😁

I think he used to be better.  In the beginning he had a regular job and all that.  I don't think the show has been a good for his ego.  He's from the same neck of the woods that I grew up in and lived in my hometown for a while.  He attended the same student ward that I did with the same bishop (though years before I was old enough to be there-that bishop served forever).  I think they used to be fairly normal, except for the extra wives.

Now they are a trainwreck.

[The Nehor]

On 12/28/2021 at 5:39 PM, Analytics said:

Just to give you guys a common enemy to gang up on and thereby come together in fellowship and harmony, I'll offer my perspective.

The LDS scriptures are not the word of God. They are simply writings that were made up in ancient history and in the 19th century. They were written by men (and men only) who, by 21st-century standards, simply didn't have a lot of insight into God, morality, or reality.

Once you understand that, these issues all go away and it all makes sense.

Just to undermine your attempt at fellowship and harmony I will take a nuanced centrist view and say the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Edited to add:

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by The Nehor

[Rain]

On 12/26/2021 at 3:20 PM, Stargazer said:

How do I validate their feelings?

This site does a much better job of sharing how to do it than I can.  A couple of things to keep in my is that it has to be sincere when you do it and that if a person doesn't trust you then it may be a few times before they start to trust you on it.  I just did a quick search. If you are really interested there are probably even better sites, but this describes what it is and isn't (it's not agreeing with the feelings), tells why it is important and gives a few tips how to do it.  

 

On 12/26/2021 at 3:20 PM, Stargazer said:

What if I do already understand why they have these fears? What if I already feel compassion for their dilemma? 

You and others have expressed concerns over a matter of doctrine. I have tried to answer those concerns with thoughts of my own, to try to suggest ways of thinking about it which might address the fears. You clearly find these inadequate. Fair enough. But in your quoted paragraph above, your advice for handling the concern really only works for a personal interaction, in person or via live conversation. Obviously we are not in such a situation. I can't read your emotions except from your written words, and lacking the ability to see your face or hear your voice, I can't adjust my own reactions in compensation.

If one is not seeking a solution to an emotional issue, then perhaps one should make it clear that one just wants to vent. Or perhaps it is I who should have just assumed that venting was the object of the post, and perhaps just posted a response along the lines of "That's a hard thing, sorry you're experiencing it." And then only give a substantive reply when asked to do so.

That's great if you already understand their fears!  You can still validate feelings.   But until you really listen to them you won't know if you really understand them.  

This isn't really an emotional issue thing even though we have been talking about emotions.  It's not about venting. It's putting yourself in a place where the person asking questions can trust you on the answers.    

On 12/26/2021 at 3:20 PM, Stargazer said:

You do understand that it is a typical "man thing," to want to immediately fix the thing, whatever it is?

It's not!  lol Women do it all the time too.  I have been working really hard on this with my family members and I still find I am trying to fix the problem all too often.   

On 12/26/2021 at 3:20 PM, Stargazer said:

 

Can an resurrected eternal being die? If not, then breathing, eating, and the rest of the essential life-sustaining activities we mortals must absolutely engage in to survive are not necessary, or in other words, are not needed. Obviously, an eternal being can eat. For example, Jesus ate with the Apostles after his resurrection, after all -- presumably to demonstrate to them his embodiment, that he wasn't just a spirit. 

Like I've said above, this makes sense.  This is what I've thought for ages.  It was just that the thought occurred to me "Maybe there is something more to this that I don't understand."  So I'm willing to let Heavenly Father a little more info on it just in case. 🙂  

[Rain]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:17 PM, rodheadlee said:

If you were childless, you would have a different opinion. I want to love and nurture a son to carry on my line, to teach how to build homes, to have as crew on our sailboat....Mothers don't do all the nurturing. My wife is just as much a captain on our boat/home as I am. 

Of course I would!  I felt differently when I was childless and wasn't sure I was going to be able to ever have children.  And because of that I am never going to tell you or your wife that you should feel the same as I do.  I had enough of "You should be glad you don't have a baby getting you up in the night" and leaving sacrament meeting on Mother's Day crying because of my lack of kids to know better than to tell you should feel the way I do. 

And I will never tell my mom that she should feel the way I do even though she has gone through much worse than I have with her own children.  

I know the pain of being childless (at least for a time).  

I also know that men can be wonderful nurturers as I have seen that my husband is much better at it than I am.  My thoughts are that we are both  supposed to nurture our children. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Rain

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

It's not!  lol Women do it all the time too.  I have been working really hard on this with my family members and I still find I am trying to fix the problem all too often.   

My (me as a child) family sits around and for socializing, tells each other how to solve their problems.  Both my parents interacted with us by trying to help us, which meant I didn’t see them half as much as some of my siblings because I am both very practical and competent and married a man who was as well as being very kind (so he stuck with me).  I thought it was my trait and not my husband’s until our daughter got diabetes and he weirdly tried to take over her care every time he came home without realizing it (one day I was at the counter fixing her a sandwich, he walked in, stood next to me and then with his full body, just unconsciously pushed me aside and took over making it).  It was screwing with him so much, we officially kicked him off the diabetes team and made him stay on the fun team.  I started looking closer at his family and they are all fixers as well and most married fixers.  It appears to be a very common trait, at least in Canadians and Americans.  
 

I don’t exactly try to fix my son’s family…except I keep passing on educational info and asking if they need me to buy anything now I can’t go over and help clean their house.

[MustardSeed]

Re: validation

Validation is a helpful tool mostly when two people are disagreeing with each other. 
 

Helping a child solve a problem is a completely different situation That requires less emotion and more action, IMO.  FWIW. 

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

This site does a much better job of sharing how to do it than I can.  A couple of things to keep in my is that it has to be sincere when you do it and that if a person doesn't trust you then it may be a few times before they start to trust you on it.  I just did a quick search. If you are really interested there are probably even better sites, but this describes what it is and isn't (it's not agreeing with the feelings), tells why it is important and gives a few tips how to do it.  

 

That's great if you already understand their fears!  You can still validate feelings.   But until you really listen to them you won't know if you really understand them.  

This isn't really an emotional issue thing even though we have been talking about emotions.  It's not about venting. It's putting yourself in a place where the person asking questions can trust you on the answers.    

It's not!  lol Women do it all the time too.  I have been working really hard on this with my family members and I still find I am trying to fix the problem all too often.   

Like I've said above, this makes sense.  This is what I've thought for ages.  It was just that the thought occurred to me "Maybe there is something more to this that I don't understand."  So I'm willing to let Heavenly Father a little more info on it just in case. 🙂  

I once looked up some sites on how to validate when you don't agree and it was incredibly helpful.  Especially in my marriage. 

It's so easy to get stuck in a perspective, and when those perspectives clash, then people get stuck in that clash with no end in sight.  Validating isn't necessarily a magic bullet but it's impressive how much it can accomplish with so little.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, Rain said:

It's not!  lol Women do it all the time too.  I have been working really hard on this with my family members and I still find I am trying to fix the problem all too often.

Please, I wasn't saying all men this and all women that, LOL! Nobody can say that when it comes to matters such as this. There is a continuum when it comes to characteristic tendencies. Perhaps I should say I believe that there are predominances when it comes to many male/female characteristic tendencies, and this is one of them. My late wife was one of those would try to fix things right away, and feelings were only of passing importance. This didn't always work when it came to her fellow females! My current wife is more along the prototypical feelings before fixing side of the continuum.

And thanks for the other part of your post -- it was appreciated!

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I once looked up some sites on how to validate when you don't agree and it was incredibly helpful.  Especially in my marriage. 

It's so easy to get stuck in a perspective, and when those perspectives clash, then people get stuck in that clash with no end in sight.  Validating isn't necessarily a magic bullet but it's impressive how much it can accomplish with so little.

There was a time when I was going crazy (some think I made it there in the end) because I was having all kinds of trouble in my marriage. And then in some desperation I read "Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus," which had just come out. It opened my eyes as to what I was doing wrong, and it helped immensely with our relationship.

[MustardSeed]

My husband started saying, “that makes sense” a lot.  I don’t even care if it’s sincere- it speaks to my emotional needs, which are a legit part of my humanness.  It opens both of us to what the other is saying and facilitates more communication and respect. 
 

I digress but it’s a favorite topic of mine. Perhaps I’ll begin another thread of my own.  Or not. 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

My husband started saying, “that makes sense” a lot.  I don’t even care if it’s sincere- it speaks to my emotional needs, which are a legit part of my humanness.  It opens both of us to what the other is saying and facilitates more communication and respect. 
 

I digress but it’s a favorite topic of mine. Perhaps I’ll begin another thread of my own.  Or not. 

I love that.  

I think it's so important to be able to admit that someone's perspective makes sense , even if we don't see it the same way. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

My husband started saying, “that makes sense” a lot.  I don’t even care if it’s sincere- it speaks to my emotional needs, which are a legit part of my humanness.  It opens both of us to what the other is saying and facilitates more communication and respect. 
 

I digress but it’s a favorite topic of mine. Perhaps I’ll begin another thread of my own.  Or not. 

Please do

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/12/2021 at 8:25 PM, Rain said:

The number, by itself, of women to men in the temple tells one nothing.  

Correction: these data mean nothing to you. Data is objective and interpreted generally in favor of our pre-existing views