Plural marriage, the priesthood, and exaltation

[Vanguard]

42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Anything I say with some posters here gets termed "mansplaining", I suppose because I am a man explaining my opinions.

Can't win for losing.

I suppose by that logic every comment by a woman would be... "womansplaining" I suppose.

 

Ha! Accusing a woman of 'womansplaining' is actually by definition mansplaining! The nerve! ;o

[Vanguard]

41 minutes ago, juliann said:

Let me help you out with the definition of mansplaining. Hint: it's not who a woman is. It is what she knows. It is about how you patronize women on this board who challenge your rhetoric. The next time you want to cherry pick through women's experiences, use quotes instead of giviing me links to my own organization for cryin' out loud. 

Definition of mansplain

 

transitive + intransitive

of a man

: to explain something to a woman in a condescending way that assumes she has no knowledge about the topic

I simply don't see the condescension and much less so because some are women? Eek, is that because I'm a man?! No knowledge about the topic? Who speaks to another in this way in this thread other than you? You've turned this definition upside down to suit your ends. I find both of your exchanges to be invigorating (and no, you don't have to cry and whine at that concession as it has nothing to do with your gender) though one is simply educating all of us and the other is well, just mansplaining... Way to debase the definition.

[juliann]

25 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It is simple really. It is all BS. Once you realize that you can move on.

What's with the drive bys? Not to mention you seem to realize it but obviously haven't moved on, let alone from this thread. 

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I simply don't see the condescension and much less so because some are women? Eek, is that because I'm a man?! No knowledge about the topic? Who speaks to another in this way in this thread other than you? You've turned this definition upside down to suit your ends. I find both of your exchanges to be invigorating (and no, you don't have to cry and whine at that concession as it has nothing to do with your gender) though one is simply educating all of us and the other is well, just mansplaining... Way to debase the definition.

Are you done derailing the thread now? 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Let me help you out with the definition of mansplaining. Hint: it's not who a woman is. It is what she knows. It is about how you patronize women on this board who challenge your rhetoric. The next time you want to cherry pick through women's experiences, use quotes instead of giviing me links to my own organization for cryin' out loud. 

Ah so now we get to read minds and figure out what is on one's own site or not and whether or not the woman knows what IS on her site now.

Uh huh.  Good idea.  Clear as mud.

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, juliann said:

Are you done derailing the thread now? 

He was not the first to use perjorative sexist terminology.

Sexism works both ways. 

[Vanguard]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Are you done derailing the thread now? 

You derailed it (as is typically the case) much earlier by introducing this claptrap of mansplaining. But then again, I'm a man so what do I know? Right? I tell you what, you stop with the mansplaining accusations and I'll stop calling you on it. I'm I allowed to say that, right?

[Vanguard]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

He was not the first to use perjorative sexist terminology.

Sexism works both ways. 

When are you going to figure this out, brother? You are wrong because of your gender!

[kimpearson]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

What would you accept as evidence? Wouldn't you wave away journal entries, etc. as anecodotal? 

I'm a little incredulous that you set your bar so low. Of course it worked very well "for some." My ancestors were mostly on the poor end of the polygamy spectrum, and it worked out well for most of them. The Frys, in particular, were well-known for this (husband and wives as well as the wives with each other). He was a stake president in Morgan, Utah. My grandmother was a prolific compiler of books on all branches of the family, using journals and other sources, and there is very strong handed-down family traditions of the marital harmony with all of them especially. Of course, modern critics of polygamy probably wave all of this away as propaganda.

I'm quite surprised at this assumption that it was terrible for everyone, and anyone who said differently was lying. 

Send me copies of whatever you have.  Your polygamous family sounds like mine with all the stories of how wonderful it was.  Then I read the actual journals.  Then I read the accounts of the wives that were abandoned when the Church policy changed.  Then I read the journals of the children who had almost no relationship with their dad except for the chosen son.  I then realized all the family stories were a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened.  The stories were shaped so that the family could be proud of their polygamous heritage.  So like I said, send me the actual journals of those who lived in polygamy and were very happy with it.  I don't want to hear second hand stories.  Just original sources please.  I honestly haven't found an original source document yet that is convincing in its portrayal of how wonderful polygamy was.  Either there is another wive with a very different view or a child that felt they didn't have a good relationship with their dad because of polygamy.  So give me some sources that show dad, all moms and all children who felt like polygamy was a blessing in their lives in ways other than I was obedient.  I will not be surprised if you find few because statistics alone would suggest a few successes.  I just haven't ran into them yet and would love to read about how they truly made it work in a positive way.  I have read stories of many incredible women who successfully raised children under a polygamous marriage but their stories were full of heartache about their relationship with their husbands and other wives.  They made do as best they could under the circumstances because they thought they were being obedient to God.   

I really have no idea if there were successful positive polygamous marriages for all.  Just because I don't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist.  I would just like to see some original source on the issue.  As an example, I read the testimonies of Joseph's wives in the temple plot case and the only real good I got out of them was a sense of being obedient to God and following a prophet.  There was no evidence that their relationship to Joseph was in any way shape or form something anybody would call a successful marriage.

Edited December 10, 2021 by kimpearson

[smac97]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Is there where I am supposed to shed tears and whine? I haven't taken notes when the men do it so I'm at a loss. 

BTW, do you not realize misandrous, hatred of men,  is the equivalent of misogyny, not mansplaining? 

I realize that "misandrous" is the adjectival form of misandry, yes.  And that "mansplaining" is often utilized for its pejorative and misandrous connotations.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Ah so now we get to read minds and figure out what is on one's own site or not and whether or not the woman knows what IS on her site now.

Uh huh.  Good idea.  Clear as mud.

No, you just have to pay attention to what people say. Why discuss the topic at all if you then forget the discussion?

[juliann]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

He was not the first to use perjorative sexist terminology.

Sexism works both ways. 

Use it all you want, call me anything you want,  just stop the endless testerical moaning and man tears when it doesn't go your way. That is the derail. Do you see me having a meltdown because a mansplainer thinks I hate all men because I won't put up with a very specific behavior from a few? Get over it, call me misandrous and get back on topic. 

[juliann]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Send me copies of whatever you have.  Your polygamous family sounds like mine with all the stories of how wonderful it was.  Then I read the actual journals.  Then I read the accounts of the wives that were abandoned when the Church policy changed.  Then I read the journals of the children who had almost no relationship with their dad except for the chosen son.  I then realized all the family stories were a complete misrepresentation of what actually happened.  The stories were shaped so that the family could be proud of their polygamous heritage.  So like I said, send me the actual journals of those who lived in polygamy and were very happy with it.  I don't want to hear second hand stories.  Just original sources please.  I honestly haven't found an original source document yet that is convincing in its portrayal of how wonderful polygamy was.  Either there is another wive with a very different view or a child that felt they didn't have a good relationship with their dad because of polygamy.  So give me some sources that show dad, all moms and all children who felt like polygamy was a blessing in their lives in ways other than I was obedient.  I will not be surprised if you find few because statistics alone would suggest a few successes.  I just haven't ran into them yet and would love to read about how they truly made it work in a positive way.  I have read stories of many incredible women who successfully raised children under a polygamous marriage but their stories were full of heartache about their relationship with their husbands and other wives.  They made do as best they could under the circumstances because they thought they were being obedient to God.   

I really have no idea if there were successful positive polygamous marriages for all.  Just because I don't know about them doesn't mean they didn't exist.  I would just like to see some original source on the issue.  As an example, I read the testimonies of Joseph's wives in the temple plot case and the only real good I got out of them was a sense of being obedient to God and following a prophet.  There was no evidence that their relationship to Joseph was in any way shape or form something anybody would call a successful marriage.

I can't remember the name...some major Nauvoo player who wrote a book...so take my telling of it for what it is. He wrote glowingly about the love between his wives. Only one of them had a diary and oh, my...I don't think despise is too strong of a word for how she felt about the other one. I have often wondered if he was simply presenting what he wanted the world to think or if he really had no idea because he wasn't around enough or had good enough relationships with them to know. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

So give me some sources that show dad, all moms and all children who felt like polygamy was a blessing in their lives in ways other than I was obedient. 

I think it would be more realistic to measure it like we measure monogamy, which generally doesn’t mean everyone is gung ho. In even successful marriages there can be disasters (parent is ill or dies, fire burns down a home, etc) as well as dysfunctional individual relationships. I consider my parents’ marriage very successful looking at their children and grandchildren over all, but one child has had a hard life and banned the rest of us from participating in theirs.  But it is pretty clear this at least started as a biochemical issue…something that can’t be blamed on the marriage.  My sibling has been quite successful in many ways, but their family life especially with their own children has incomprehensible to the rest of us.  The only way to take into account this type of family dysfunction as well as environmental factors independent of the number of wives is to compare like to like.

What needs to be done with the polygamous journals is to compare them to monogamous couples/families journals that occurred in the same general area and time so each family has pretty much the same environmental circumstances, not a stand alone “everyone says in most moments what a blessing it has been”.  Life was hard in some places and many of the issues that affected the polygamous families (short of resources, illnesses and deaths, etc) affected the monogamous ones.  The questions for me of whether or not polygamy was successful as practiced are if the above difficulties were made worse by the father not being able to focus on one family as well as what are the unique issues of polygyny. For example, when my sibling had difficulties after a divorce or got promoted and couldn’t be at home as much, my parents stepped in to help care for their children. But this did prevent them from helping me and mine out when my daughter got diagnosed with diabetes and we were flailing for a bit (we were capable of managing on our own, it just would have been a smoother, less painful transition if my parents could have helped with the day to day for a few weeks while we learned how to help our daughter with her self care).  If this happened in a large polygamous family, much greater chance the father wouldn’t be able to be part of the support system of a number of children or grandchildren with extraordinary needs. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Calm

[Tacenda]

I watch Sister Wives, and the way they live it is quite commendable, they don't have anything to do with Warren Jeffs, and you'd never know they were polygamist at all. Their married children are all monogamist, they have a gay daughter that they fully accept. But the innermost workings are so tough with the four wives. They mostly gang up on the husband. But recently one of the wives has left, something I thought would never happen with her, maybe another wife, that has no sexual relationship with the husband, it is not a marriage anymore, but she sticks around. 

Love their family, honestly. If I had to live polygamy, I'd want to live it like they have.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

People fretting about a practice that ended 130 years ago.  A practice they are not called upon to live.  Classic "First World Problem."

No. That is not what a “First World Problem” is.

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, juliann said:

Use it all you want, call me anything you want,  just stop the endless testerical moaning and man tears when it doesn't go your way. That is the derail. Do you see me having a meltdown because a mansplainer thinks I hate all men because I won't put up with a very specific behavior from a few? Get over it, call me misandrous and get back on topic. 

Oh my.   

Unbelievable.   I am just stunned at the irony.   I am glad you did not have a meltdown.  🙄

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I watch Sister Wives, and the way they live it is quite commendable, they don't have anything to do with Warren Jeffs, and you'd never know they were polygamist at all. Their married children are all monogamist, they have a gay daughter that they fully accept. But the innermost workings are so tough with the four wives. They mostly gang up on the husband. But recently one of the wives has left, something I thought would never happen with her, maybe another wife, that has no sexual relationship with the husband, it is not a marriage anymore, but she sticks around. 

Love their family, honestly. If I had to live polygamy, I'd want to live it like they have.

Enjoy it but it is a reality show. It is mostly lies with a bit of truth thrown in when it serves the drama.

[kimpearson]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it would be more realistic to measure it like we measure monogamy, which generally doesn’t mean everyone is gung ho. In even successful marriages there can be disasters (parent is ill or dies, fire burns down a home, etc) as well as dysfunctional individual relationships. I consider my parents’ marriage very successful looking at their children and grandchildren over all, but one child has had a hard life and banned the rest of us from participating in theirs.  But it is pretty clear this at least started as a biochemical issue…something that can’t be blamed on the marriage.  My sibling has been quite successful in many ways, but their family life especially with their own children has incomprehensible to the rest of us.  The only way to take into account this type of family dysfunction as well as environmental factors independent of the number of wives is to compare like to like.

What needs to be done with the polygamous journals is to compare them to monogamous couples/families journals that occurred in the same general area and time so each family has pretty much the same environmental circumstances, not a stand alone “everyone says in most moments what a blessing it has been”.  Life was hard in some places and many of the issues that affected the polygamous families (short of resources, illnesses and deaths, etc) affected the monogamous ones.  The questions for me of whether or not polygamy was successful as practiced are if the above difficulties were made worse by the father not being able to focus on one family as well as what are the unique issues of polygyny. For example, when my sibling had difficulties after a divorce or got promoted and couldn’t be at home as much, my parents stepped in to help care for their children. But this did prevent them from helping me and mine out when my daughter got diagnosed with diabetes and we were flailing for a bit (we were capable of managing on our own, it just would have been a smoother, less painful transition if my parents could have helped with the day to day for a few weeks while we learned how to help our daughter with her self care).  If this happened in a large polygamous family, much greater chance the father wouldn’t be able to be part of the support system of a number of children or grandchildren with extraordinary needs. 

Not talking about the typical challenges of any marriage or family.  I am talking about how polygamy specifically affected families.  Tell me how polygamy built stronger marriages rather than weaken them.  Tell me how polygamy built stronger feelings of love between parents and children, especially father child relationships and half brother/sister relationships.  Show me first hand accounts of any such benefits of polygamy from those that actually lived it.  Again I am not saying they don't exist, I would just love to read them.

[kimpearson]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I watch Sister Wives, and the way they live it is quite commendable, they don't have anything to do with Warren Jeffs, and you'd never know they were polygamist at all. Their married children are all monogamist, they have a gay daughter that they fully accept. But the innermost workings are so tough with the four wives. They mostly gang up on the husband. But recently one of the wives has left, something I thought would never happen with her, maybe another wife, that has no sexual relationship with the husband, it is not a marriage anymore, but she sticks around. 

Love their family, honestly. If I had to live polygamy, I'd want to live it like they have.

Maybe you ought to follow their lives outside of what you see on TV.  My wife follows a Facebook group that includes some of the children and I think one wife.  There is an incredible amount of hurt and dissonance with many of the children and their dad and the wives and their husband.  It all centers around the polygamist model.  The dad has been incredibly persuasive at convincing many in the family that polygamy is the will of God and their eternal salvation hinges on living it fully.  The marriages actually have very little to do with actual love and companionship. 

[juliann]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it would be more realistic to measure it like we measure monogamy, which generally doesn’t mean everyone is gung ho. In even successful marriages there can be disasters (parent is ill or dies, fire burns down a home, etc) as well as dysfunctional individual relationships. I consider my parents’ marriage very successful looking at their children and grandchildren over all, but one child has had a hard life and banned the rest of us from participating in theirs.  But it is pretty clear this at least started as a biochemical issue…something that can’t be blamed on the marriage.  My sibling has been quite successful in many ways, but their family life especially with their own children has incomprehensible to the rest of us.  The only way to take into account this type of family dysfunction as well as environmental factors independent of the number of wives is to compare like to like.

What needs to be done with the polygamous journals is to compare them to monogamous couples/families journals that occurred in the same general area and time so each family has pretty much the same environmental circumstances, not a stand alone “everyone says in most moments what a blessing it has been”.  Life was hard in some places and many of the issues that affected the polygamous families (short of resources, illnesses and deaths, etc) affected the monogamous ones.   

Life would not have been as hard through normal sorts of hardships when there were two adults present to manage it. Nor were issues the same, monogamous wives did not have to even contemplate other women moving in and using limited resources meant for their children, let alone taking over.  I don't think monogamy and polygamy are similar enough for useful comparisons. You can't control the variables.

[MustardSeed]

41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I watch Sister Wives, and the way they live it is quite commendable, they don't have anything to do with Warren Jeffs, and you'd never know they were polygamist at all. Their married children are all monogamist, they have a gay daughter that they fully accept. But the innermost workings are so tough with the four wives. They mostly gang up on the husband. But recently one of the wives has left, something I thought would never happen with her, maybe another wife, that has no sexual relationship with the husband, it is not a marriage anymore, but she sticks around. 

Love their family, honestly. If I had to live polygamy, I'd want to live it like they have.

Surely you can’t be serious.  This is reality tv! Nothing is real-

 

 

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Maybe you ought to follow their lives outside of what you see on TV.  My wife follows a Facebook group that includes some of the children and I think one wife.  There is an incredible amount of hurt and dissonance with many of the children and their dad and the wives and their husband.  It all centers around the polygamist model.  The dad has been incredibly persuasive at convincing many in the family that polygamy is the will of God and their eternal salvation hinges on living it fully.  The marriages actually have very little to do with actual love and companionship. 

I can't believe I'm defending polygamy since it's what destroyed my testimony. I've watched Sister Wives from day one. And I disagree with most of what you're saying. There is controversy over what took place because of covid. Kody is taking it very serious, whereas the children aren't nor is the wife that left him, and her daughter had surgery for scoliosis and Kody (her dad), couldn't go support her because the surgery was in another state. He was worried about taking covid back to his wife that he mainly stays with unless when they meet up with every one it's social distancing and in an outdoor area. I think that's what the kids are mad about because they think it's a bunch of bull that they can't spend time with their siblings in a closer way, and the daughter that had surgery is ticked too that her dad didn't go with for her surgery. So I'm guessing that's it. Or I will have to check out the FB group and see for myself.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Surely you can’t be serious.  This is reality tv! Nothing is real-

Well, if you haven't been watching for as long as I have, I feel you don't have a leg to stand on. Sure they keep some drama somewhat, but I don't feel like it's acting. And just like in real life there is drama.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Tacenda

[juliann]

17 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Not talking about the typical challenges of any marriage or family.  I am talking about how polygamy specifically affected families.  Tell me how polygamy built stronger marriages rather than weaken them.  Tell me how polygamy built stronger feelings of love between parents and children, especially father child relationships and half brother/sister relationships.  Show me first hand accounts of any such benefits of polygamy from those that actually lived it.  Again I am not saying they don't exist, I would just love to read them.

I don't have records of my polygamist family but there certainly was chaos after he died. My great grandmother died earlier with young children while her house was being built on the homestead, another wife raised the children with the understanding she would receive the farmhouse. My grandmother didn't have a good word to say about her childhood, she left when she was 16. She told stories about how mean the half siblings were to her (they must have felt neglected when their home turned into the equivalent of a boarding house)  I don't think any of her family stayed with the church so I think this idea that somehow these horrible situations were making good members is probably exaggerated. My father only became active because he married an active woman. Grandma's brother somehow got control and took all the property leaving the woman who raised them high and dry. She did have a happy second marriage, thank goodness. I am very grateful and proud that my great grandfather never abandoned anyone, they hid pregnancies after the Manifesto and he spent time in prison.