President Oaks Address on the Need for a Church

[nuclearfuels]

The original teaching from President Kimball:

"We do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility, and regardless of what is said from the pulpit, if one wishes to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, he may do so by attending his meetings, partaking of the sacrament, and contemplating the beauties of the gospel. If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.¹⁸"

This implies to me at least that what is stated at the pulpit is irrelevant. My connection with the Savior is up to me. I get it. That makes sense.

President Oaks:

President Spencer W. Kimball taught that “we do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility. … If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.”⁹

I'm probably misunderstanding or misreading this but it seems to suggest that I'm responsible for the behavior of others in my ward inlcuding those who speak, whose words don't really resonate with me or whose testimonies don't really touch me.

I don't believe it is healthy to blame oneself for the behavior of others and it's not something I'm willing to do anymore.

Further, I don't think one ward/branch is pretty much liek the next. Some are politcally in alignment with me/you and some are nto in aligment with your/my politics. Some are langauge branches. Some are wealthy, some are poor. All of these factors influence the degree to which the Spirit is felt cumulatively and individually. 

This is why I enjoy sitting by myself in the forest outside the church instead of attending Elder's quorum or gospel doctrine.  

 

[Canadiandude]

Ooh, there’s a lotta shame language used there alright.

Personally I think the talk is just a reaction to the growing rate of secularism in society, even within the church.

It’s not a you or me problem, but a reactionary response to inter-generational changes to values, behaviour and thinking- not necessarily bad changes either.

 

These men knew and lived in a time markedly different than the present. My father while younger than these men feels very much the same.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Canadiandude

[Calm]

I simply think when they say worship is an individual responsibility, they are separating that from the communal behaviours that are a shared responsibility.  Thus Sacrament Meeting or the other Sunday meetings may be a failure in communal ways, but the moments of pure worship that occur through the Sacrament itself need never be a failure if one is personally prepared to receive it as part of one’s worship.  And these moments of pure worship can be extended through the rest of the meetings by keeping one’s heart and mind in that sacred space while one is instructed (whether that is a failure by the teacher or others or a success or some of both) or interacts in possibly negative as well as positive ways with those who should be, but may not be our fellow worshippers. 
 

It can be compared to a good marriage, imo. The moments of love to a spouse and their love towards us can be corrupted by how others feel and act towards our loved one if we allow it or we can see our love towards our spouse as independent of how others feel or acts towards them. And we may have bad days in our lives including stuff going wrong at home so it is not the refuge it is suppose to be…perhaps the basement gets flooded or we have a break in or kids are sick, but our marriage need not be viewed as failing at those times if we stay strong and stay focused on our love for our spouse while recognizing their love for us. 
 

I don’t see it as shaming language, but rather a reminder or teaching for those who haven’t thought of church that way before that we don’t need to rely on others in order to get value out of Sabbath meetings. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm probably misunderstanding or misreading this but it seems to suggest that I'm responsible for the behavior of others in my ward inlcuding those who speak, whose words don't really resonate with me or whose testimonies don't really touch me.

I’m not seeing how one can reasonably conclude that from the message of either President Kimball or President Oaks. They each said we are individually responsible for our own spiritual edification at church (a thing you said makes sense to you), but neither man that I can see asserted or implied that we are “responsible for the behavior of others.” 
 

Can you clarify how you arrived at that inference? 

[Scott Lloyd]

It has been a typical practice among the past two or three bishoprics in our ward to introduce the administration of the sacrament by saying it is “the reason why we are here.” 
 

I think it noteworthy that they phrase it as “THE reason why we are here” rather than one of the reasons “why we are here.”

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

The original teaching from President Kimball:

"We do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility, and regardless of what is said from the pulpit, if one wishes to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, he may do so by attending his meetings, partaking of the sacrament, and contemplating the beauties of the gospel. If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.¹⁸"

This implies to me at least that what is stated at the pulpit is irrelevant. My connection with the Savior is up to me. I get it. That makes sense.

President Oaks:

President Spencer W. Kimball taught that “we do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility. … If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.”⁹

I'm probably misunderstanding or misreading this but it seems to suggest that I'm responsible for the behavior of others in my ward including those who speak, whose words don't really resonate with me or whose testimonies don't really touch me.

I don't believe it is healthy to blame oneself for the behavior of others and it's not something I'm willing to do anymore.

Further, I don't think one ward/branch is pretty much like the next. Some are politically in alignment with me/you and some are not in alignment with your/my politics. Some are language branches. Some are wealthy, some are poor. All of these factors influence the degree to which the Spirit is felt cumulatively and individually. 

This is why I enjoy sitting by myself in the forest outside the church instead of attending Elder's quorum or gospel doctrine.  

 

I don't read it as being responsible for others but being responsible for how we react to others.  I think what they are saying is that if we allow someone's weakness (such as not being prepared for the talk or lesson they were assigned to give and giving a really "bad" one) to cause us to have bad Sunday at church, then that is on us, not them.  

Ultimately what we get out of church is our responsibility, no one else's.

I agree with that, as long as it isn't used as an excuse for a ward not to improve their Sunday worship services.  I think that we can recognize that if Sister so-and-so stands up on testimony meeting and gives a 20 minute travelmony, or starts calling young parents to repentance for allowing their kids to make noise during the meeting, or outlines exactly why the Savior would have voted for Trump or Biden--that is a testimony that is likely to detract from the quality of the meeting.  Though it's our responsibility not to let it affect us negatively, I do think the ward leaders have a responsibility to work to curb those kinds of incidents so that it doesn't continue to happen as well.

And of cours ward members have a responsibility to perform their callings to the best of their ability.  If Brother so-and-so does not prepare a lesson for the class that he is supposed to teach and the lesson ends up greatly lacking, he is accountable for not fulfilling his calling.  He is not accountable for us leaving his classroom with a bad attitude because the lesson was boring or choosing not to go to church anymore because of it.

We always have a choice on how we react to something negative.  I think that's what Oaks and Kimball are teaching here:  The principles of Choice and Accountability.

[Duncan]

President Kimball also said and this goes along with what Bluebell was saying, 

"We often do vigorous enlistment work to get members to come to church but then do not adequately watch over what they receive when they do come." Oct. 1980 GC

I think he was saying to the leaders maybe don't give crazy talks or have crazy people speaking in church or teaching in classes because people may only come the one time and you don't want them to come away with weird ideas of what we believe.

Something that gets to me and I see this here once in a while. Someone gets called to be a EQP or High Council or Bishopric, and I saw this once done for a Stake Presidency, but this person no one knows or has had the opportunity to speak or teach a class or something and then they get a calling like that and shock of all shock it goes 60 ways to sunday and you say in meeting "what did you expect?" you called this person who is untested and unknown, yeah they may have a cool job buuuuuuuuuut that doesn't mean they don't have nutty ideas about life and the gospel. Basically, you deserve everything that you get if you call someone who isn't known or whatever

[bsjkki]

Honest take. We are responsible for what we get out of church and some wards make this easier and some wards make this more difficult. 
 

Maybe the difficult ward environments, if you survive them, help strip away the social/community reasons for attending church and help a person focus on Christ and their testimony of gospel truths.

[Fether]

14 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm probably misunderstanding or misreading this but it seems to suggest that I'm responsible for the behavior of others in my ward inlcuding those who speak, whose words don't really resonate with me or whose testimonies don't really touch me.

I don't believe it is healthy to blame oneself for the behavior of others and it's not something I'm willing to do anymore.

Further, I don't think one ward/branch is pretty much liek the next. Some are politcally in alignment with me/you and some are nto in aligment with your/my politics. Some are langauge branches. Some are wealthy, some are poor. All of these factors influence the degree to which the Spirit is felt cumulatively and individually. 

Maybe my experience will help a little.

I use to feel similar. I remember hearing people go up and give talks and being bored out of my mind. I use to feel a little cringe when I saw people cry in their testimony. I use to feel people would manipulate their emotions to force a faux spirit out. Once in a blue moon, someone would say a new thing or share an insight that I had never heard before and I loved it.

I was also awful I’m Sunday school, I would sit back and critique the teacher and their teaching style. I just wished they would use better teaching techniques and would say something with actual substance.

Same thing with my studies. I had read through the Book of Mormon  multiple times and could and could even tell you what was happening in every chapter of every book. I got bored of studying scripture. There was about a year time where the majority of what I would study was anti, anti rebuttels, and articles written by scholars.

I then, by happenstance, came across this scripture.

Acts: 17:21

”For all the Athenians and strangers which were there [waste] their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing”

I related deeply with the Athenians. I was only studying to be spoon fed something new. I was like a fussy baby that kept spitting out the words that were given to me. Occasionally something acceptable would enter my mouth and I would happily accept it, but most of it was nothing more than yucky mush.

Over the last couple years I have been revamping my approach to study and church. Instead of learning something new, I am focusing on my short comings and failures and when so listen to talks, I look for truths that would help me overcome. I am also trying to train myself to accept people’s testimonies where they are and to avoid putting my own skeptical spin on them. Today, I still am impatient with things people say, but I’m less bitter about it and I am actually having take a ways from most talks.

I enjoy church now that it is less about me expecting yummy food and more about me finding the nutrients in the food that will help me become more Christlike.

 

Side note: we have been asked multiple times to keep politics out of church. If people are bringing it up and you disagree with their views. Make a scene and remind everyone why we aren’t supposed to have politics. I have done this before. Politics are often brought up Where I am at. I find some of it agreeable, some of it based in ignorance, and some of it plain false. One day I decided to counter a comment someone made. Immediately, another person reminded us that we aren’t supposed to bring politics into the conversation, I then pointed out that politics are always being brought up here, and the only reason he said that was because this was the first time someone disagreed with the political viewpoint of the room.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm probably misunderstanding or misreading this but it seems to suggest that I'm responsible for the behavior of others in my ward inlcuding those who speak, whose words don't really resonate with me or whose testimonies don't really touch me.

Yes, it seems you are misunderstanding. President Oaks also suggested, by relating another person's experience, that we attend to find a way to minister to someone or otherwise edify others. What better way to seek the Spirit and worship God?

[nuclearfuels]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:37 PM, Calm said:

Sunday meetings may be a failure in communal ways, but the moments of pure worship that occur through the Sacrament itself need never be a failure if one is personally prepared to receive it as part of one’s worship.  And these moments of pure worship can be extended through the rest of the meetings by keeping one’s heart and mind in that sacred space while one is instructed (whether that is a failure by the teacher or others or a success or some of both) or interacts in possibly negative as well as positive ways with those who should be, but may not be our fellow worshippers. 
 

I don’t see it as shaming language, but rather a reminder or teaching for those who haven’t thought of church that way before that we don’t need to rely on others in order to get value out of Sabbath meetings. 

Well said, Calm.

Perhaps attending online would/could in fact become more communal

[nuclearfuels]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:10 PM, Canadiandude said:

a reactionary response to inter-generational changes to values, behaviour and thinking

Agreed

[nuclearfuels]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

it's our responsibility not to let it affect us negatively

We should attend church with a sovereign mentality. 

Interesting. 

I think I'll start doing that.

[nuclearfuels]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

we have been asked multiple times to keep politics out of church. If people are bringing it up and you disagree with their views. Make a scene and remind everyone why we aren’t supposed to have politics. I have done this before. Politics are often brought up Where I am at. I find some of it agreeable, some of it based in ignorance, and some of it plain false. One day I decided to counter a comment someone made. Immediately, another person reminded us that we aren’t supposed to bring politics into the conversation, I then pointed out that politics are always being brought up here, and the only reason he said that was because this was the first time someone disagreed with the political viewpoint of the room.

This is why I no longer attend Elder's Quorum

Not that I attended it much during the past 10 years. 

Even without a calling, I'm not going back to purgatory. 

[Fether]

8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

This is why I no longer attend Elder's Quorum

Not that I attended it much during the past 10 years. 

Even without a calling, I'm not going back to purgatory. 

Why is elders quorum such an awful experience for you, but for so few others?

[Teancum]

I am not sure telling people if you get nothing out of church attendance you are the failure.  It does not seem to really drill into the core issues as to why people are not going. I doubt that this talk will motivate many non attenders to go back.

[ksfisher]

22 hours ago, Fether said:

Side note: we have been asked multiple times to keep politics out of church. If people are bringing it up and you disagree with their views. Make a scene and remind everyone why we aren’t supposed to have politics. I have done this before. Politics are often brought up Where I am at. I find some of it agreeable, some of it based in ignorance, and some of it plain false. One day I decided to counter a comment someone made. Immediately, another person reminded us that we aren’t supposed to bring politics into the conversation, I then pointed out that politics are always being brought up here, and the only reason he said that was because this was the first time someone disagreed with the political viewpoint of the room.

Have you spoken to the quorum president about this?  We rarely (almost never) have anything political brought up.  I think everyone is aware that if they do bring up anything of the sort that the conversation will very quickly get interrupted and put back on track.  The only time I can recall anything recently was a conversation between two people before the meeting started, which as soon as I heard it begin I started making a couple announcements. 

[ksfisher]

On 10/17/2021 at 7:25 AM, bluebell said:

I think that we can recognize that if Sister so-and-so stands up on testimony meeting and gives a 20 minute travelmony,

I've always tried to be very patient with these kind of people.  I think for some of them it's the only time during the month when people listen to them. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Why is elders quorum such an awful experience for you, but for so few others?

Maybe why I never enjoyed RS, but I blame that on the guilt that women so often feel. I loved callings in Primary to keep me out of RS. Too bad I had two callings in RS presidencies that kept me going to RS. Oops, I see that my comment has nothing to do with politics. I've only had politics brought up in Gospel Doctrine or over the pulpit from speakers.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I've always tried to be very patient with these kind of people.  I think for some of them it's the only time during the month when people listen to them. 

Though I would guard against engaging in it myself, I think I can understand the motivation behind the “travelmony,” having visited a few Church historic sites in my time. Encountering the power of place, and perhaps even having had a spiritual experience there, one feels a sense of obligation to share it with others who have not had such an opportunity and maybe never will. It is very easy to forget that a good many people find such a thing annoying. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

I am a Zoom watcher in my ward, and it's working out well. But I've noticed that every F&T mtg. there are 2 or 3 older ladies that will speak each time and take up the majority of time, and it's all about the BoM being true and more like a lesson. I feel for the members that don't get time for their testimonies. It use to always irritate me, when members get up and try to teach/preach rather than share their testimony of something, w/o taking up like 15 min. I would understand if it was a rare thing but each week. I can almost see from the body language of the bishopric on the stand that they are super worried that it's going to suck up a lot of time. 

[Maestrophil]

I go to church with the mentality that I can serve and fellowship by being kind and creating a positive environment.  So as long as I can take the the sacrament, and then have positive interactions with my ward family where I feel I am giving the best of myself - I feel fulfilled and like my Heavenly Father is happy with me.

 

Conversely, if I go expecting others to be good to me or to get some kind of motivation from others, I am often let down.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 10/16/2021 at 8:59 PM, nuclearfuels said:

The original teaching from President Kimball:

"We do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility, and regardless of what is said from the pulpit, if one wishes to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, he may do so by attending his meetings, partaking of the sacrament, and contemplating the beauties of the gospel. If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.¹⁸"

This implies to me at least that what is stated at the pulpit is irrelevant. My connection with the Savior is up to me. I get it. That makes sense.

President Oaks:

President Spencer W. Kimball taught that “we do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility. … If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. 

 

I think the word “failure”, might be misunderstood. Every Sacrament meeting has all that is needed. It has an opening prayer, given in the name of “Jesus Christ”, the Sacrament prayers, which must be given verbatim, both the bread and water, also asking a blessing in the name of “Jesus Christ”, where we are asked to remember his ‘Son” (Jesus Christ) in every sentence. The only possible “failure”, might occur is someone takes the opportunity to not speak of, “Jesus Christ”. But seldom would the second or third. But on the off chance this might occur, the Bishop, or a member of the Bishopric, will steer the ship back on course, then the meeting will end with a prayer, end with,,,”in the name of Jesus Christ”. All of this to insure that the “Spirit of God”, (the Holy Ghost, or Spirit) will be present for any “honest soul, or seeker” will receive it. This is where it is our responsibility to be ready to hear the message, even if the message was not what was being addressed. In this, it has always been our sole responsibility. The same way we learn different lessons n Temple Attendance, even though the sessions are always, word for word the same. 

[Scott Lloyd]

54 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I go to church with the mentality that I can serve and fellowship by being kind and creating a positive environment.  So as long as I can take the the sacrament, and then have positive interactions with my ward family where I feel I am giving the best of myself - I feel fulfilled and like my Heavenly Father is happy with me.

 

Conversely, if I go expecting others to be good to me or to get some kind of motivation from others, I am often let down.

Even on days when I never hear anything particularly stimulating at church, I’m blessed just from the warmth of being in that place of refuge with likeminded people who share my beliefs about things of the Spirit. Which is why I don’t much like it when politics enters into discourses or discussions, thereby encroaching or infringing on that sanctuary. Or when people hijack a sacred occasion as a personal platform for declaring their sexual orientation or advocacy for controversial positions on social issues — a rare occurrence, certainly, but we all know it has happened and will likely happen again. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Amulek]

21 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

All of this to insure that the “Spirit of God”, (the Holy Ghost, or Spirit) will be present for any “honest soul, or seeker” will receive it. This is where it is our responsibility to be ready to hear the message, even if the message was not what was being addressed.

This.

The message communicated by the Spirit is much more valuable than (and sometimes not even remotely related to) the message delivered by the speaker.