President Oaks Address on the Need for a Church

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Surely there is salvation in Mormonism.

Oh wait, we got rid of that word.

Well played, apostles. Well played.

I think you know what I meant.  If you want to pretend you didn't, and, thereby, possibly cause some of the uninitiated to question your intelligence, that's your business.  I'll leave you to it.

[california boy]

On 10/19/2021 at 12:02 PM, kimpearson said:

I am a bit surprised by the narrowness of the discussion.  I have talked to many people who struggle with church attendance and boredom is not the main reason.  It's something they might mention but the primary reason is that they don't feel church is a place of safety where they are fully accepted.  They often feel like their views are not strictly aligned with the vocal majority at church and if they show any part of their true feelings, they will be looked down upon.  They often mention struggling with doubts and when they express those doubts at church, they feel attacked rather than comforted.  For most LGTBQ+ members and many of their families, church attendance is a weekly reminder that they don't fit the life model the the Church champions in every lesson and most talks.  For any who sympathize with queer members it feels like any discussion of the increasing sins of the world is code for gay marriage acceptance and transgender rights acceptance.  Many are struggling in their marriages or have rebellious kids and have done everything the Church told them to do such at temple marriage, family scripture study and daily prayer.  They then attend church where person after person will testify that the Lord blesses those who do these things and will be helped with their problems.  These struggling members feel no help even after doing these things and Sunday just increases their feelings of shame and pain.  In my opinion, President Oaks was only addressing a very small minority of those who struggle with church attendance.  It was those members he could squarely place the blame on their shoulders.  Like every church leader recently, he makes no mention of things that church leaders and active members are doing themselves that discourage church attendance.  Based on the discussions above, I guess my experience must be unique and the rest of you only know bored and spoiled members who only go to church to be entertained and since they are not, they quit attending.

Welcome to the board.  And thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I was talking to my daughter who is in her 30's this weekend who is still committed to the Church.  She said something quite interesting to me.  The conflict she has with the Church is that everything is so black and white.  Everything is so black and white.  I certainly grew up in that environment.  All the sudden if you have three ear piercings, or a tattoo, or to short of dress or you support LGBT issues, or see an R rated movie or have a Starbucks, or blah, blah, blah, (the issues could fill this entire page) then you are not following the prophet and a course correction should be taken to fall more in line with what is expected. And BYU is the worse offender of these meaningless rules.  If men's hair is too long, or they grow a beard or they are gay and hold hands, or kiss or even date, then you are not living the standards expected of you.  It is as if the Church tries to clone squeaky clean image in their youth and if you don't fit into that squeaky clean clone  image, then you are out. And this doesn't even get into historical issues that one is expected to accept.  If you do something or think outside the very narrow guidelines that church correlation has defined then somehow you are failing as a member of the Church.  

The younger generation, her generation, sees things more gray and nuanced.  They are questioning what difference does ANY of those endless rules make when it comes to having a relationship with Christ.  If the only way you can have a relationship with Christ is to follow the strict black and white, follow the prophet completely, don't step outside the church correlation thinking, then perhaps this is the wrong Church for a lot of the youth.  She feels this is a major reason why so many walk away from the Church.  

 

[let’s roll]

45 minutes ago, california boy said:

Welcome to the board.  And thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I was talking to my daughter who is in her 30's this weekend who is still committed to the Church.  She said something quite interesting to me.  The conflict she has with the Church is that everything is so black and white.  Everything is so black and white.  I certainly grew up in that environment.  All the sudden if you have three ear piercings, or a tattoo, or to short of dress or you support LGBT issues, or see an R rated movie or have a Starbucks, or blah, blah, blah, (the issues could fill this entire page) then you are not following the prophet and a course correction should be taken to fall more in line with what is expected. And BYU is the worse offender of these meaningless rules.  If men's hair is too long, or they grow a beard or they are gay and hold hands, or kiss or even date, then you are not living the standards expected of you.  It is as if the Church tries to clone squeaky clean image in their youth and if you don't fit into that squeaky clean clone  image, then you are out. And this doesn't even get into historical issues that one is expected to accept.  If you do something or think outside the very narrow guidelines that church correlation has defined then somehow you are failing as a member of the Church.  

The younger generation, her generation, sees things more gray and nuanced.  They are questioning what difference does ANY of those endless rules make when it comes to having a relationship with Christ.  If the only way you can have a relationship with Christ is to follow the strict black and white, follow the prophet completely, don't step outside the church correlation thinking, then perhaps this is the wrong Church for a lot of the youth.  She feels this is a major reason why so many walk away from the Church.  

 

Your daughter’s questions aren’t asked only by her generation.  Many of us have asked those questions for years, I know I have.  But having those questions has never made me question the Gospel as defined in scripture nor caused me to want to leave the Church.

Loving all our brothers and sisters means seeking to understand, and viewing as God’s children, those modern day Pharisees among us who too often look only at our outward appearance and too seldom seek to understand our hearts.  

Jesus was prolific in his condemnation of those who elevated the law over the heart, yet we need to forgive and strive to love those of our brothers and sisters blinded by the law the same way we seek to have them forgive our weaknesses and strive to love us.

Edited October 20, 2021 by let’s roll

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think you know what I meant.  If you want to pretend you didn't, and, thereby, possibly cause some of the uninitiated to question your intelligence, that's your business.  I'll leave you to it.

 

 

[california boy]

59 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Your daughter’s questions aren’t asked only by her generation.  Many of us have asked those questions for years, I know I have.  But having those questions has never made me question the Gospel as defined in scripture nor caused me to want to leave the Church.

Loving all our brothers and sisters means seeking to understand, and viewing as God’s children, those modern day Pharisees among us who too often look only at our outward appearance and too seldom seek to understand our hearts.  

Jesus was prolific in his condemnation of those who elevated the law over the heart, yet we need to forgive and strive to love those of our brothers and sisters blinded by the law the same way we seek to have them forgive our weaknesses and strive to love us.

I agree.  But for a lot of members, they can't seem to mesh what the Church expects of them and applying that to a gospel of such black and white thinking.

[let’s roll]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I agree.  But for a lot of members, they can't seem to mesh what the Church expects of them and applying that to a gospel of such black and white thinking.

I would invite anyone struggling in the manner you describe to consider that earnestly seeking life eternal—to know God and the Christ—is a full time journey and leaves no time or energy, and dissipates the desire, to give thought to how others, inside or outside the Church, perceive us.

Edited October 21, 2021 by let’s roll

[kimpearson]

The response I hear from many of you is that Church leaders and active church members have no real responsibility toward those who don't feel welcome.  It's mostly if not entirely on the shoulders of the member who feels unwelcome to just get over it, forgive anyone who might have been unwelcoming and attend church.  This is what The Savior expects and He is pleased with all the actions of Church leaders and active members in the Church currently.  If I am misunderstanding, please clarify.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

The response I hear from many of you is that Church leaders and active church members have no real responsibility toward those who don't feel welcome.  It's mostly if not entirely on the shoulders of the member who feels unwelcome to just get over it, forgive anyone who might have been unwelcoming and attend church.  This is what The Savior expects and He is pleased with all the actions of Church leaders and active members in the Church currently.  If I am misunderstanding, please clarify.

You are misunderstanding. They are saying that while everyone has a duty to help each other the ultimate responsibility is on the individual. Most church leaders and many members try to be welcoming but if they fail and someone decides to leave it is not primarily the fault of others.

I also admit to a bit of annoyance at many of the people over the years who advance this as an excuse or complain about how no one is ever doing enough for them. Dig down and you often discover they themselves do nothing to make others feel welcome, don’t do callings, and don’t minister. I comfort myself that at least there appears to be symmetry.

[rchorse]

When I was in a position to know both sides of the story, it was most often the members that we had bent over backwards to welcome and done everything possible we could think of to help them out that would complain about how poorly they had been received and how unfriendly the ward had been. I'm not saying that doesn't happen for real in some cases, but I take most of that type of complaining with a huge grain of salt.

It's like my dad, who is always complaining that no one cares about him in his ward and no one wants to be his friend. But when I've attended church in their ward, I've seen the exact opposite. Most people are very friendly to him. But he has never really understood how normal human relationships and friendship work outside the immediate family. He has unrealistic expectations of friendships and fellowship in the ward.

[Raingirl]

10 hours ago, kimpearson said:

The response I hear from many of you is that Church leaders and active church members have no real responsibility toward those who don't feel welcome.  It's mostly if not entirely on the shoulders of the member who feels unwelcome to just get over it, forgive anyone who might have been unwelcoming and attend church.  This is what The Savior expects and He is pleased with all the actions of Church leaders and active members in the Church currently.  If I am misunderstanding, please clarify.

I understand where you’re coming from. Whenever this subject is brought up, the response that is invariably given is to place 100 percent of the responsibility on the person who feels unwelcome. I have never seen an individual member or ward accept even a small part of the responsibility. 

[Canadiandude]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Dig down and you often discover they themselves do nothing to make others feel welcome, don’t do callings, and don’t minister.

There are more and more people turning down callings these days because they don’t have confidence in the doctrine and church leadership. Each week there’s a multitude of Reddit threads by such members (PIMO, Physically in, Mentally Out, as we call em) who just can’t take it any more.

These are not lazy learners but people who’ve taken the time to investigate, and now don’t feel comfortable teaching/propagating what they’ve ultimately concluded as harmful.

I can understand where they are coming from. Such people understand that the church institutions & doctrines must change for the better  if they are gonna contribute further.

Often the only reason they even remain in is because they’re living in mixed faith households and wish to keep the familial peace.

 

[california boy]

12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

The response I hear from many of you is that Church leaders and active church members have no real responsibility toward those who don't feel welcome.  It's mostly if not entirely on the shoulders of the member who feels unwelcome to just get over it, forgive anyone who might have been unwelcoming and attend church.  This is what The Savior expects and He is pleased with all the actions of Church leaders and active members in the Church currently.  If I am misunderstanding, please clarify.

I don't think we are talking about how many smile and shake a person's hand.  I think we are talking about a single mom feeling unwelcome because she doesn't have that ideal eternal family that is presented as the "correct" path to God.  Or a gay person hearing how evil the gay community is and we must do all we can to stop it. (this happened to me the last time I attended a church meeting.}  Or the best friend of my daughter who got a CTR tattoo on her ankle and then was told that she was not following the prophet.  Or my daughter who has two earrings in one ear.  Even a person wearing a colored dress shirt may feel uncomfortable because the accepted clone is white shirts.  No amount of handshakes are going to make those kinds of situation help the person feel welcome in a religion that is so judgmental for things that should not matter AT ALL when it comes to worshiping the Savior.  

[california boy]

17 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I would invite anyone struggling in the manner you describe to consider that earnestly seeking life eternal—to know God and the Christ—is a full time journey and leaves no time or energy, and dissipates the desire, to give thought to how others, inside or outside the Church, perceive us.

I think you are kinda missing the point.  If your beliefs in the teachings and examples that Christ taught are in conflict with what the church is doing and teaching, then the Church becomes a roadblock in their relationship with Christ.  Do you follow the Church teachings which are suppose to be the will of Christ?  Or do you follow what you believe is the true message Christ taught and take the consequences that those actions may have on your membership.  

I will give you an example of what I am talking about.  I was talking with my son about some of the issues he has with the Church.  One of his big issues is the staggering amount of wealth the Church is holding.  He is feeling like he doesn't want to pay his tithing to the Church, but would rather give 10% to a local charity that spends all of their donations on caring for others.  To him, this seems more like the message the Savior taught.  But if he doesn't pay his tithing to the Church, what are the consequences.  Will he still get a temple recommend?  

Edited October 21, 2021 by california boy

[california boy]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

duplicate

Edited October 21, 2021 by california boy

[bluebell]

23 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The “tradition, culture and opinion” might fall within the category of what I characterized as “matters on which the Church has taken no formal position” and thus should not occupy time in a Church setting for protracted discussion. 

I like What Elder Bednar says about it in his new book on Revelation.

"A fundamental principle of revelation is that it is "scattered among us."...If individuals feel safe and can give voice to some of their questions, concerns, and uncertainties in a class, in a family, in a council meeting, and in a variety of other settings, then they participate in a collective expression of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that invites and entices the Holy Ghost to be the teacher."

This is what I'm trying to say.  Echo chamber wards, where people who see things a bit differently are afraid to speak, or are always quickly shot down, are not functioning properly and members of such wards suffer from cutting off their access to the revelation that is scattered in more places than just the one point of view.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I don't think we are talking about how many smile and shake a person's hand.  I think we are talking about a single mom feeling unwelcome because she doesn't have that ideal eternal family that is presented as the "correct" path to God.  Or a gay person hearing how evil the gay community is and we must do all we can to stop it. (this happened to me the last time I attended a church meeting.}  Or the best friend of my daughter who got a CTR tattoo on her ankle and then was told that she was not following the prophet.  Or my daughter who has two earrings in one ear.  Even a person wearing a colored dress shirt may feel uncomfortable because the accepted clone is white shirts.  No amount of handshakes are going to make those kinds of situation help the person feel welcome in a religion that is so judgmental for things that should not matter AT ALL when it comes to worshiping the Savior.  

I've been attending the same ward in the same building for nearly sixteen years.  I have been in the building many hundreds of times, for cumulatively some thousands of hours.

The last few weeks I have been working on a project at home.  I am converting my carport into a garage.  I hired a guy to pour the cement footings, frame the walls and install a window and a door.  I am doing the tyvek wrap, flashing, trim, siding, sealing, painting, etc.  It's taking me a while, as I'm doing it in my (limited) spare time, and I've never done it before, and I'm not very good with my hands.  However, I have been taking pains to install these things in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations and in line with YouTube tutorials I've watched.  In the process I've become, well, pretty critical of the work.  I cut some of the siding too short (these are 4 by 8 foot panels, trimmed to fit).  Some of the gaps are too wide.  Some of the cuts aren't perfectly straight.  Not all of the screws have been into the studs.  Also, the carport is about 60 years old, so its angles are not perfect.  The concrete on one corner has settled a little.  

Last Saturday morning I and my family went to the church building because it is our ward's turn to clean.  Few people showed up, so we ended up being there a while (1.5 hours, instead of the typical 20-30 minutes).  While there I found myself noticing . . . all sorts of flaws in the building.  A small crack running several inches in the masonry above the door to the library.  A small gap in the trim in one of the foyers.  A "rise" in the carpet outside the bishop's office (the subfloor is buckling up about 1/2 an inch). I had previously been aware of some odd design/construction things with the building.  For example, the "funeral door" leading out of the chapel has about a 1.5 inch concrete lip on the outside, which makes getting a casket into the chapel through that door very difficult.  Also, the Primary Room was, I've been told, added on years after the construction of the building.  It's ceiling is plenty high in the middle of the room, but it slops downward and at each end is very low (under six feet).  The fire alarm goes off fairly often, often for no apparent reason.  The heating and cooling systems don't seem to reach the classroom in the northeast corner of the building, where the young women meet.  They are often hot in the summary and sold in the winter while meeting there.

Anyway, last Saturday I began pointing these things out to my wife.  We both remarked how we had been coming to this building for years and had never noticed them.  I told her that I think I had noticed these flaws because of the work I had been doing with our carport/garage.  My wife then remarked that she had likewise not noticed the flaws in my work on the siding and such until I had specifically pointed them out to her.  Prior to that she had thought I had been doing a really good job.  She said that even after I pointed out the flaws, the overall work still looked quite good, even though she was now more cognizant of my mistakes.  She then said something like "I guess it's the same with these flaws in the church building.  They are certainly there, but you don't really notice them unless you go looking for them."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, rchorse said:

When I was in a position to know both sides of the story, it was most often the members that we had bent over backwards to welcome and done everything possible we could think of to help them out that would complain about how poorly they had been received and how unfriendly the ward had been. I'm not saying that doesn't happen for real in some cases, but I take most of that type of complaining with a huge grain of salt.

I have seen the same thing as well, with some degree of regularity.

 

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

There are more and more people turning down callings these days because they don’t have confidence in the doctrine and church leadership.

That hasn't been my experience, and I say that as someone who actually interacts with members and extends callings...a bunch.

I have seen people turn down (or find clever ways to avoid) invitations to speak in sacrament meeting, but it's rare that I've had someone turn down a calling. So rare, in fact, that I'm honestly having a hard time remembering if it has actually ever happened at all.

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Canadiandude said:

There are more and more people turning down callings these days because they don’t have confidence in the doctrine and church leadership. Each week there’s a multitude of Reddit threads by such members (PIMO, Physically in, Mentally Out, as we call em) who just can’t take it any more.

These are not lazy learners but people who’ve taken the time to investigate, and now don’t feel comfortable teaching/propagating what they’ve ultimately concluded as harmful.

I can understand where they are coming from. Such people understand that the church institutions & doctrines must change for the better  if they are gonna contribute further.

Often the only reason they even remain in is because they’re living in mixed faith households and wish to keep the familial peace.

 

Which is fine. It is where they are at. If someone is complaining that others are not making enough of an effort in areas where they themselves are making little to no effort I am going to have a hard time taking the complaint seriously.

[Canadiandude]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Which is fine. It is where they are at. If someone is complaining that others are not making enough of an effort in areas where they themselves are making little to no effort I am going to have a hard time taking the complaint seriously.

Ah, I see. These aren’t likely the same kinds of people in your experience, which is fair so long as they aren’t treated as such.

[Canadiandude]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I've been attending the same ward in the same building for nearly sixteen years.  I have been in the building many hundreds of times, for cumulatively some thousands of hours.

The last few weeks I have been working on a project at home.  I am converting my carport into a garage.  I hired a guy to pour the cement footings, frame the walls and install a window and a door.  I am doing the tyvek wrap, flashing, trim, siding, sealing, painting, etc.  It's taking me a while, as I'm doing it in my (limited) spare time, and I've never done it before, and I'm not very good with my hands.  However, I have been taking pains to install these things in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations and in line with YouTube tutorials I've watched.  In the process I've become, well, pretty critical of the work.  I cut some of the siding too short (these are 4 by 8 foot panels, trimmed to fit).  Some of the gaps are too wide.  Some of the cuts aren't perfectly straight.  Not all of the screws have been into the studs.  Also, the carport is about 60 years old, so its angles are not perfect.  The concrete on one corner has settled a little.  

Last Saturday morning I and my family went to the church building because it is our ward's turn to clean.  Few people showed up, so we ended up being there a while (1.5 hours, instead of the typical 20-30 minutes).  While there I found myself noticing . . . all sorts of flaws in the building.  A small crack running several inches in the masonry above the door to the library.  A small gap in the trim in one of the foyers.  A "rise" in the carpet outside the bishop's office (the subfloor is buckling up about 1/2 an inch). I had previously been aware of some odd design/construction things with the building.  For example, the "funeral door" leading out of the chapel has about a 1.5 inch concrete lip on the outside, which makes getting a casket into the chapel through that door very difficult.  Also, the Primary Room was, I've been told, added on years after the construction of the building.  It's ceiling is plenty high in the middle of the room, but it slops downward and at each end is very low (under six feet).  The fire alarm goes off fairly often, often for no apparent reason.  The heating and cooling systems don't seem to reach the classroom in the northeast corner of the building, where the young women meet.  They are often hot in the summary and sold in the winter while meeting there.

Anyway, last Saturday I began pointing these things out to my wife.  We both remarked how we had been coming to this building for years and had never noticed them.  I told her that I think I had noticed these flaws because of the work I had been doing with our carport/garage.  My wife then remarked that she had likewise not noticed the flaws in my work on the siding and such until I had specifically pointed them out to her.  Prior to that she had thought I had been doing a really good job.  She said that even after I pointed out the flaws, the overall work still looked quite good, even though she was now more cognizant of my mistakes.  She then said something like "I guess it's the same with these flaws in the church building.  They are certainly there, but you don't really notice them unless you go looking for them."

Thanks,

-Smac

I’m sorry but how does your case relate to the comment/issue you are responding to?

Are you really suggesting that the consequences of the small imperfections you mention re: your reno/church building are akin to the serious issues and problems experienced by marginalized people in the church??

I have a theory:

Maybe you don’t really notice these problems because they don’t really affect you all that much, as nobody who’s affected by the problems that California Boy describes has to look all that hard to notice them.

They are an impactful part of their reality as a Latter-Day Saint.

It’s about *privilege* plain ‘n simple. 

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Canadiandude

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I like What Elder Bednar says about it in his new book on Revelation.

"A fundamental principle of revelation is that it is "scattered among us."...If individuals feel safe and can give voice to some of their questions, concerns, and uncertainties in a class, in a family, in a council meeting, and in a variety of other settings, then they participate in a collective expression of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that invites and entices the Holy Ghost to be the teacher."

This is what I'm trying to say.  Echo chamber wards, where people who see things a bit differently are afraid to speak, or are always quickly shot down, are not functioning properly and members of such wards suffer from cutting off their access to the revelation that is scattered in more places than just the one point of view.

I’ll go back to what I said earlier about there possibly being a fine line between permitting what is described in the above Bednar quote and allowing advocacy of positions that contradict the authoritative doctrines and teachings of the Church. I’d be willing to look at the Bednar quote in context if I can find the book, but I would be very surprised to learn that he was expressing support for the latter. 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

That hasn't been my experience, and I say that as someone who actually interacts with members and extends callings...a bunch.

I have seen people turn down (or find clever ways to avoid) invitations to speak in sacrament meeting, but it's rare that I've had someone turn down a calling. So rare, in fact, that I'm honestly having a hard time remembering if it has actually ever happened at all.

My experience is the same as yours (nobody has turned down a calling that I can recall).  We did have one guy who accepted the assignment to give a talk in Sacrament meeting, but then suddenly had to get his gallbladder removed on the Saturday before his talk, so he couldn't give the talk on Sunday for some crazy reason (he said something about being bed ridden and in pain).  But he was telling the truth    I'd say that was a fair excuse. 

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ll go back to what I said earlier about there possibly being a fine line between permitting what is described in the above Bednar quote and allowing advocacy of positions that contradict the authoritative doctrines and teachings of the Church. I’d be willing to look at the Bednar quote in context if I can find the book, but I would be very surprised to learn that he was expressing support for the latter. 

I'd be very surprised if any active member expressed support for the latter.

The quote from Bednar is in his book The Spirit of Revelation, page 58.  In the chapter The "Scattered Among Us" Principle.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I'd be very surprised if any active member expressed support for the latter.

The quote from Bednar is in his book The Spirit of Revelation, page 58.  In the chapter The "Scattered Among Us" Principle.

Thanks. I’ll see if the library has a copy.