President Oaks Address on the Need for a Church

[rongo]

38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Apparently I missed the memo. 
What difference does the title make, do you think? 

It's more than a name change. As written, it will have the effect of far fewer disciplinary councils, and far fewer instances of formal discipline. As just one example, the high council is removed in almost all cases as part of it, despite a D&C section detailing their important role. Also, all endowed adults are "tried" (no good verb that isn't euphemistic and Orwellian) by the stake presidency, not the bishopric. 

People can disagree on whether this is a good or a bad development, but it's certain that it changes things pretty profoundly. The bishopric's role in these is going to shrink to almost nothing, since it is rare to "try" inactive or unrepentant people (other than vocal, public apostates, and they will be at the stake level ). 

[Olmec Donald]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Iirc, it is called membership withdrawal these days. Sec 26.5.9 in handbook

Thanks for posting this.  I've been a bit "out of the loop" regarding the contents of the handbook, shall we say...

 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Apparently I missed the memo. 
 

What difference does the title make, do you think? 

Maybe leadership wants to remove some emotional baggage the word carries, maybe make it easier for people to imagine returning.

Edited October 31, 2021 by Calm

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe leadership wants to remove some emotional baggage the word carries, maybe make it easier for people to imagine returning.

They should change "disfellowshiped" as well. Or maybe they have.

[Calm]

Just now, Tacenda said:

They should change "disfellowshiped" as well. Or maybe they have.

They have. Membership restriction. 

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

They have. Membership restriction. 

Good to know!

[Olmec Donald]

12 hours ago, CV75 said:

@Kenngo1969and @Olmec Donald, bumping my own post because I had an additional thought that you might be interested in.

I think that because, at some point, we realize that we have intentionally done bad things (or willfully neglected to do good things), and that we cannot possibly track down and fix every ripple effect, we make the assumption, correctly I believe, that we need the Lord’s mercy and grace to offset our deserved condemnation. 

I don't think God sees us as "deserving condemnation" even for our willful mistakes, though WE usually DO see ourselves that way, which is not necessarily a bad thing because it can push us in the right direction.

12 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think we realize we need His mercy and grace to repair the ripple effects of our ignorance and unintended harm as well. We realize our limitations in any case, and look to the Lord in His mercy and grace to save us from this condemnation. This is one way I think the term "infinite" applies: it addresses all the things we cannot possibly repair given our limited understanding and abilities.

I agree that God addresses and heals the things which we cannot possibly repair on our own.  But I think the condemnation He saves us from is our own, not His. 

I don't expect you to agree with this.  If you'd like for me to elaborate on any of this, I'll give it a shot. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[CV75]

Yes and no...

Edited October 31, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

I don't think God sees us as "deserving condemnation" even for our willful mistakes, though WE usually DO see ourselves that way, which is not necessarily a bad thing because it can push us in the right direction.

I agree that God addresses and heals the things which we cannot possibly repair on our own.  But I think the condemnation He saves us from is our own, not His. 

I don't expect you to agree with this.  If you'd like for me to elaborate on any of this, I'll give it a shot. 

I agree from a certain perspective. For example, do we deserve to die just because we were born? No and yes: No, because infants die too and they haven't done anything to deserve anything. Yet we strive to keep them alive because we love them. Yes, because we (even infants) chose beforehand to enter this second estate, where death (however momentary, given that some people are translated or changed in the twinkling of an eye) is inevitable. Yet God strives to keep us all alive according to His will and timetable because He loves us. He also resurrects us all for the same reason.

Then, for example, do we deserve to be spiritually separated from God just because we were born? No and yes: No, because this is not the case anyway (everyone is born with His light; e.g. "little children are alive in Christ").  But yes, because we chose beforehand to become accountable and tested (should we live long enough), knowing that our "aliveness" would erode as we exercise agency contrary to the light of Christ that is in us. Yet God strives to keep us all spiritually alive because He loves us, according to our willingness. 

"Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence. But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance." (Alma 12) This looks to me like we condemn ourselves, but God at some point has stopped arguing against it. The bolded descriptions describe attitudes that arise from within us, not imposed upon us by God.

Perhaps a better term than "God condemns me" -- which is not the same as "God sees us as deserving condemnation" (though maybe He sees it as a no and yes proposition as well!) -- is "God grieves at my hardness of heart" as in Moses 7. In either case, God gives us physical and spiritual life not because we deserve it (well no and yes  ), but because He loves us.

Edited October 31, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

CV75, that Alma quote is great! Let's bring in the context, because (imo) that's especially important in this instance:

Alma and his junior companion Amulek were in the middle of a discussion with a lawyer named Zeezrom in front of a “great multitude”. Amulek had just finished teaching the first concepts, and now it was Alma's turn. This part is key: Alma starts out by explaining that the “greater portion of the word”, and the “mysteries of God”, are reserved for those who do not harden their hearts; while the “lesser portion of the word” is given to those who “harden their hearts”, and eventually they “know nothing concerning the mysteries” and end up in the “chains of hell”.

Quoting from those verses, 9-11, which are prelude to the verses you quoted:

“It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

“And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

“And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.”

Given the circumstances – a public discussion with a hostile lawyer – we may logically infer that Alma is NOT going to be teaching the “greater portion of the word” nor “the mysteries of God”, but rather he is going to be teaching the “lesser portion of the word”. He pretty much just told us that.

Verse 12 makes the transition from the concepts Amulek taught to Alma's next concept, which are the verses (13-15) you quoted:

8 hours ago, CV75 said:

"Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence. But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame that all his judgments are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance." (Alma 12)

And Alma doesn't stop there – he gets pretty vivid in his description of the harsh judgments awaiting the wicked. But remember, he just got through giving us a heads-up that this was not going to be “the greater portion of the word” nor “the mysteries of God”. In other words, these harsh and frightening verses are not the highest level of truth on the subject.

God uses harsh language for deliberately heightened effect (D&C 19:6-12), and Jesus pointed out that “wisdom is justified by her children” (Luke 7:35).

Along the same lines we read in Proverbs that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”, but it would be a mistake to assume that that's the highest level of truth on the subject. From First John: “Perfect love casts out fear.” So now we can see the progression: Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it is ONLY the beginning. Perfect love is down the road, and it actually casts out fear. Thus something which served us well at the beginning no longer serves us once we have arrived at “perfect love”.

And last but not least, note what it is that differentiates those who are given “the mysteries of God” from those who are not: Whether or not we “harden our hearts”. 

In case you can't tell, I like Alma way more than any self-respecting ex-Mormon should. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

CV75, that Alma quote is great! Let's bring in the context, because (imo) that's especially important in this instance:

Alma and his junior companion Amulek were in the middle of a discussion with a lawyer named Zeezrom in front of a “great multitude”. Amulek had just finished teaching the first concepts, and now it was Alma's turn. This part is key: Alma starts out by explaining that the “greater portion of the word”, and the “mysteries of God”, are reserved for those who do not harden their hearts; while the “lesser portion of the word” is given to those who “harden their hearts”, and eventually they “know nothing concerning the mysteries” and end up in the “chains of hell”.

Quoting from those verses, 9-11, which are prelude to the verses you quoted:

“It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

“And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

“And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.”

Given the circumstances – a public discussion with a hostile lawyer – we may logically infer that Alma is NOT going to be teaching the “greater portion of the word” nor “the mysteries of God”, but rather he is going to be teaching the “lesser portion of the word”. He pretty much just told us that.

Verse 12 makes the transition from the concepts Amulek taught to Alma's next concept, which are the verses (13-15) you quoted:

And Alma doesn't stop there – he gets pretty vivid in his description of the harsh judgments awaiting the wicked. But remember, he just got through giving us a heads-up that this was not going to be “the greater portion of the word” nor “the mysteries of God”. In other words, these harsh and frightening verses are not the highest level of truth on the subject.

God uses harsh language for deliberately heightened effect (D&C 19:6-12), and Jesus pointed out that “wisdom is justified by her children” (Luke 7:35).

Along the same lines we read in Proverbs that “fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”, but it would be a mistake to assume that that's the highest level of truth on the subject. From First John: “Perfect love casts out fear.” So now we can see the progression: Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it is ONLY the beginning. Perfect love is down the road, and it actually casts out fear. Thus something which served us well at the beginning no longer serves us once we have arrived at “perfect love”.

And last but not least, note what it is that differentiates those who are given “the mysteries of God” from those who are not: Whether or not we “harden our hearts”. 

In case you can't tell, I like Alma way more than any self-respecting ex-Mormon should. 

 I would hope anyone would enjoy Alma! Happy that you do!

I do think imparting the word of God, whether through other people or in various other modes, always begins with the lesser portion and builds from there as it is received and correctly applied. This supports the idea that any condemnation (the second, spiritual death, which Alma, empathetically in my opinion, describes from his own experience -- later, in Chapter 36) is self-administered. But as to this idea of deservedness, after directing his remarks toward Zeezrom, he turns to Antoniah’s question for the rest of his speech.

Whether this part is considered to be lesser or greater knowledge, it was sufficient to entice the more receptive part of his audience to repent. It continues into Chapter 13, which to me seems like “greater knowledge”, but with the same simple message to repent. And then of course he spoke “many more words” in verse 31, which I can only guess involved a "greater portion" consisting of baptism of water and of fire and of the Holy Ghost (given what followed in Chapter 15).

Ideally, the sense of “deservedness” of the second death, going by Alma’s experience, is why people seek God’s mercy and grace. From Alma 36, he says:

“But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments. Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds… And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold …I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death. And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! …Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.”

Edited October 31, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

[Quoting Alma]"... And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold …I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death. And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! …Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

That's an absolutely incredible experience Alma describes. His story sounds a lot like some near-death experiences. Howard Storm in particular comes to mind (plenty of interview footage on YouTube), some of the similarities are remarkable.

I don't think Alma got special treatment the rest of us don't have equal access to.  So I think we can do as Nephi said and apply the Alma scriptures to ourselves. 

Of course on this side of the veil our experiences will not be nearly as vivid and undeniable, but on the other hand maybe our opportunity is even greater than Alma's in some ways: As Jesus said to Thomas, “blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Edited November 1, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

That's an absolutely incredible experience Alma describes. His story sounds a lot like some near-death experiences. Howard Storm in particular comes to mind (plenty of interview footage on YouTube), some of the similarities are remarkable.

I don't think Alma got special treatment the rest of us don't have equal access to.  So I think we can do as Nephi said and apply the Alma scriptures to ourselves. 

Of course on this side of the veil our experiences will not be nearly as vivid and undeniable, but on the other hand maybe our opportunity is even greater than Alma's in some ways: As Jesus said to Thomas, “blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

Yes, I think that is precisely why Alma shared it -- it is something we can all relate to (hopefully) to our individual extent. When we feel this condemnation, or even feel it coming, we can exercise faith in Christ and repent, move further and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, and move further and receive the temple covenants, and further on the Church of the Firstborn. I'm skipping some steps there for brevity  , plus we have teh sacrament to keep us on an even keel along the way. But I think the temple, in whatever form it took in his day, is what Alma is teaching about in Alma 13 (hinging on verse 16), whether that is considered lesser or greater knowledge.