let’s roll Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Teancum said: Do you ever get weary of feeling like you are not a good enough disciple? It was an awful way for me to live. Before I lost my testimony I did find grace to some degree in LDS theology and I preached it quite a bit. No. With all my shortcomings I feel a steady stream of love from Deity which is motivating and invigorating. Frequently that love is felt as I earnestly inquire of God, “what lack I yet.” You’ll recall the scriptures recount the love Jesus felt for the man who made that inquiry of him. I’ve felt that love as I’ve worked to try to address the things revealed to me regarding my short-comings. My presence on mormondialogue is a product of one of those revelations. Your question reminded me of The Chosen. Don’t know if you’ve been watching but the last few episodes are the lead up to the Sermon on the Mount. They depict the squabbles and dysfunction among the disciples which cause them to be weary and doubtful. In the midst of this seeming dysfunction, Jesus sees the best in each of His disciples and uses their best qualities in fashioning the Beatitudes. Whether literal or poetic license, that depiction of Deity’s penchant for seeing the best in us in consistent with my experience as a disciple. 2
Teancum Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 12 hours ago, MustardSeed said: Why do people leave? IMO, Because conformity often rules and wins at our church and there are many people who plain don’t fit in. Fitting in is a pretty important need for humans to get met. Some may leave because of that but not all nor the majority. The reason are many. For me I simply have concluded the Church is not what it claims to be.
CV75 Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 15 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: That is an excellent question. And I sincerely thank you for the implied invitation. About twenty years ago I started regularly attending LDS church services again. I did not go back for what the Church had to offer me; I went back for what I might be able to offer here and there. I would look for who seemed to be hoping, perhaps even needing, to have their batteries recharged at church, so to speak. And this may sound like arrogance, but I tried to play that role. I tried to make coming to church a positive experience for them. Unfortunately that is not all I did; I also expressed things to people on certain topics that I should have kept my mouth shut about. I was excommunicated about nineteen years ago. I had hard feelings about it for a while. In retrospect, I do not think my short-lived return to activity was a net benefit to anyone. The path to re-baptism would require me to profess beliefs which I do not hold, so that's not going to happen. And "relatively friendly ex-member" is not a role I want to play in a church setting. But again, thank you CV75. Thank you -- so it's more involved that just understanding the implications of grace. Personally, I see no condemnation in admitting I need grace. At the very least, I cannot resurrect myself. And while there is no condemnation in good faith efforts, I cannot rise above my good faith and live with the Lord on my own terms. 2
Popular Post Kenngo1969 Posted October 28, 2021 Popular Post Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: ... In retrospect, I do not think my short-lived return to activity was a net benefit to anyone. ... Even though you went back with the goal of buoying others up, lifting up the hands that hang down, and strengthening the feeble knees? Even if you never saw the fruits of those efforts, perhaps they bore more fruit than you realized. 17 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: The path to re-baptism would require me to profess beliefs which I do not hold, so that's not going to happen. And "relatively friendly ex-member" is not a role I want to play in a church setting. ... Well, that's somewhat disappointing to hear, but, certainly, I would never require that you be true to yourself in a way that you feel, rather, is being false to yourself. (Although I would note ... and I hasten to add that this is not an indictment of you: it's simply a general observation ... that perhaps, at least in some cases, being true to oneself is overrated.) Should you ever change your mind (and your heart, perhaps), while, certainly, I cannot speak for the Saints in your neck of the woods, for my part, you would be welcomed back with open arms (or at least with a hearty handshake, if you're not comfortable with the "open arms" bit/imagery. ) Any disagreement notwithstanding, I wish you well. Edited October 28, 2021 by Kenngo1969 5
Tacenda Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 50 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Even though you went back with the goal of buoying others up, lifting up the hands that hang down, and strengthening the feeble knees? Even if you never saw the fruits of those efforts, perhaps they bore more fruit than you realized. Well, that's somewhat disappointing to hear, but, certainly, I would never require that you be true to yourself in a way that you feel, rather, is being false to yourself. (Although I would note ... and I hasten to add that this is not an indictment of you: it's simply a general observation ... that perhaps, at least in some cases, being true to oneself is overrated.) Any disagreement notwithstanding, I wish you well. You're a good man, Ken. And you're right, Olmec most likely did more than he presumes. I know it would have been a great thing to have someone like Olmec there during my hard times of going to church through my faith crisis. Someone to talk to, I believe every ward should have someone like Olmec.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: You're a good man, Ken. ... Matthew 19:17. (Sorry! Couldn't resist! ) Thank you for the compliment, though.
Olmec Donald Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Even though you went back with the goal of buoying others up, lifting up the hands that hang down, and strengthening the feeble knees? Thank you, Ken. Maybe I'm overthinking, but it seems to me that excommunication tends to retroactively discredit whatever unorthodox things the person may have said. 4 hours ago, CV75 said: Thank you -- so it's more involved that just understanding the implications of grace. Personally, I see no condemnation in admitting I need grace. At the very least, I cannot resurrect myself. And while there is no condemnation in good faith efforts, I cannot rise above my good faith and live with the Lord on my own terms. Yes, my whole paradigm has shifted. Where before I saw sins that called for punishment and broken laws that called for justice to be satisfied, I now see mistakes that call for correction and wounds that call for healing. I believe our purpose is to really become like Christ (3rd Nephi 27:27). I believe the journey will inevitably be a very long one, but that we make it not alone. Edited October 28, 2021 by Olmec Donald 3
Tacenda Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: Matthew 19:17. (Sorry! Couldn't resist! ) Thank you for the compliment, though. I just liked how you answered Olmec. And several on this board's.
Olmec Donald Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Well, that's somewhat disappointing to hear, but, certainly, I would never require that you be true to yourself in a way that you feel, rather, is being false to yourself. (Although I would note ... and I hasten to add that this is not an indictment of you: it's simply a general observation ... that perhaps, at least in some cases, being true to oneself is overrated.) Should you ever change your mind (and your heart, perhaps), while, certainly, I cannot speak for the Saints in your neck of the woods, for my part, you would be welcomed back with open arms (or at least with a hearty handshake, if you're not comfortable with the "open arms" bit/imagery. ) Any disagreement notwithstanding, I wish you well. I wanted to make a separate post about this, because I think it is amazing. Please notice four things: First, Ken does not offer me any condemnation, either overtly or veiled. Second, he gently offers me correction ("perhaps, at least in some cases, being true to oneself is overrated"). He is right! Third, he offers me healing ("... you would be welcomed back with open arms..."). Fourth, he offers me a blessing: "I wish you well." I wish you well too, my Christ-like friend. 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: I just liked how you answered Olmec. And several on this board's. And thank you Tacenda for pointing out what Ken is doing here. I can't "like" your posts for some reason, but I do. Edited October 28, 2021 by Olmec Donald 3
CV75 Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Thank you, Ken. Maybe I'm overthinking, but it seems to me that excommunication tends to retroactively discredit whatever unorthodox things the person may have said. Yes, my whole paradigm has shifted. Where before I saw sins that called for punishment and broken laws that called for justice to be satisfied, I now see mistakes that call for correction and wounds that call for healing. I believe our purpose is to really become like Christ (3rd Nephi 27:27). I believe the journey will inevitably be a very long one, but that we make it not alone. I see sins (willful rebellion against God, the light of Christ, the power and /or Gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.) as having just consequences, as does harmony with God, the light of Christ, etc. Before anyone ever committed the first sin, God prepared correction and healing for all sins by anyone through His Son. The passage from rebellion to harmony is reconciliation; the heavy labor supporting the passage is atonement (the Lord's). The misery we feel for wickedness can rightly be called punishment and justice, as the joy we feel for harmony can be called reward and mercy. Mercy satisfies the demands of justice because everyone sins and everyone falls short of the standard you mention with 3 Nephi 27:27. Mercy does not have any demands; it pleads and invites, and encircles us in the arms of safety to the degree we are willing. Whatever the semantics, mercy wins. The journey is long and we do not make it alone, but the timing is addressed in the other thread: Edited October 28, 2021 by CV75 1
The Nehor Posted October 28, 2021 Posted October 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: Thank you, Ken. Maybe I'm overthinking, but it seems to me that excommunication tends to retroactively discredit whatever unorthodox things the person may have said. Since we don’t call it excommunication anymore you are probably in the clear there.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: You're a good man, Ken. And you're right, Olmec most likely did more than he presumes. I know it would have been a great thing to have someone like Olmec there during my hard times of going to church through my faith crisis. Someone to talk to, I believe every ward should have someone like Olmec. 7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Matthew 19:17. (Sorry! Couldn't resist! ) Thank you for the compliment, though. 6 hours ago, Tacenda said: I just liked how you answered Olmec. And several on this board's. I know. I was just having a little fun with you!
Olmec Donald Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, CV75 said: Whatever the semantics, mercy wins. I agree totally with this! And with everything else you said in that post, allowing for our different semantics. 6 hours ago, The Nehor said: Since we don’t call it excommunication anymore... I don't know you well enough to tell when you're serious... could you clarify? Edited October 29, 2021 by Olmec Donald
CV75 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 7 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: I agree totally with this! And with everything else you said in that post, allowing for our different semantics. I don't know you well enough to tell when you're serious... could you clarify? What are the key areas of semantics difference? For example, when I say "mercy wins" I mean it satisfies the demands of justice without abrogating justice (i.e., people still have fair opportunity to exercise agency and choose). The implied alternative perspective is that "justice wins" because everyone is ensured a fair opportunity to exercise agency, including the choice to accept mercy, thus satisfying the invitations of mercy.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 21 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: I wanted to make a separate post about this, because I think it is amazing. Please notice four things: First, Ken does not offer me any condemnation, either overtly or veiled. Second, he gently offers me correction ("perhaps, at least in some cases, being true to oneself is overrated"). He is right! Third, he offers me healing ("... you would be welcomed back with open arms..."). Fourth, he offers me a blessing: "I wish you well." I wish you well too, my Christ-like friend. You're quite welcome. That said, I feel to quote what the Pharisees told the blind man whom Jesus healed. See John 9:24. Saying further, with that said, I do need to work on offering Olive Branches when my "Natural Man" inclination is to offer ... something else ... though I don't say that because I have, nor have I ever had, any particular beef with you: There have been times when I have been combative, and other times when my forthright, frank nature has been misinterpreted as combativeness when, rather, it is simple, unadorned (though perhaps too frank) honesty. 1
Tacenda Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 21 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: I wanted to make a separate post about this, because I think it is amazing. Please notice four things: First, Ken does not offer me any condemnation, either overtly or veiled. Second, he gently offers me correction ("perhaps, at least in some cases, being true to oneself is overrated"). He is right! Third, he offers me healing ("... you would be welcomed back with open arms..."). Fourth, he offers me a blessing: "I wish you well." I wish you well too, my Christ-like friend. And thank you Tacenda for pointing out what Ken is doing here. I can't "like" your posts for some reason, but I do. I'm on "limited", for bad behavior in some of my posting in the past, so unable to receive those likes, but no big deal really, I've lived with it for years. Nice to cyber meet you Olmec!
Olmec Donald Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, CV75 said: What are the key areas of semantics difference? I look through a different lens so I use different words. But reading through that post of yours, I didn't see any major concepts that I disagreed with. 5 hours ago, CV75 said: For example, when I say "mercy wins" I mean it satisfies the demands of justice without abrogating justice (i.e., people still have fair opportunity to exercise agency and choose). The implied alternative perspective is that "justice wins" because everyone is ensured a fair opportunity to exercise agency, including the choice to accept mercy, thus satisfying the invitations of mercy. This is a good example for us to work with. I don't normally think in terms of “justice” and “mercy”, but this is how they look through the lens I use: True justice would be the undoing of all injustice. The undoing of all injustice would be healing for everyone involved. Healing for everyone involved could only happen through the atonement. And the atonement is mercy. Therefore, true justice is actually mercy. So we both end up at “mercy wins”, though we get there via different paths. Edited October 29, 2021 by Olmec Donald 1
CV75 Posted October 29, 2021 Posted October 29, 2021 2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said: I look through a different lens so I use different words. But reading through that post of yours, I didn't see any major concepts that I disagreed with. This is a good example for us to work with. I don't normally think in terms of “justice” and “mercy”, but this is how they look through the lens I use: True justice would be the undoing of all injustice. The undoing of all injustice would be healing for everyone involved. Healing for everyone involved could only happen through the atonement. And the atonement is mercy. Therefore, true justice is actually mercy. So we both end up at “mercy wins”, though we get there via different paths. Yes, because they are reconciled, they are actually become two words for something new, but only because of the Atonement of Christ. Otherwise they would remain irreconcilably opposed. Similarly, I see faith and knowledge as two forms of the same new thing as well, as each one leads to and drives the other (Alma 32). In this way, faith is foreknowledge, and knowledge is experience, or maybe even conviction. 2
The Nehor Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 On 10/27/2021 at 4:26 PM, Teancum said: Do you ever get weary of feeling like you are not a good enough disciple? It was an awful way for me to live. Before I lost my testimony I did find grace to some degree in LDS theology and I preached it quite a bit. Not really. I know I am not a good enough disciple. 2
Olmec Donald Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: See John 9:24. See Matthew 25:40. 1
MustardSeed Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 On 10/28/2021 at 4:11 PM, The Nehor said: Since we don’t call it excommunication anymore you are probably in the clear there. Say what?
Calm Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, MustardSeed said: Say what? Iirc, it is called membership withdrawal these days. Sec 26.5.9 in handbook Edited October 30, 2021 by Calm 1
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 43 minutes ago, Calm said: Iirc, it is called membership withdrawal these days. Sec 26.5.9 in handbook That's a new one on me!
CV75 Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, CV75 said: Yes, because they are reconciled, they are actually become two words for something new, but only because of the Atonement of Christ. Otherwise they would remain irreconcilably opposed. Similarly, I see faith and knowledge as two forms of the same new thing as well, as each one leads to and drives the other (Alma 32). In this way, faith is foreknowledge, and knowledge is experience, or maybe even conviction. @Kenngo1969and @Olmec Donald, bumping my own post because I had an additional thought that you might be interested in. I think that because, at some point, we realize that we have intentionally done bad things (or willfully neglected to do good things), and that we cannot possibly track down and fix every ripple effect, we make the assumption, correctly I believe, that we need the Lord’s mercy and grace to offset our deserved condemnation. I think we realize we need His mercy and grace to repair the ripple effects of our ignorance and unintended harm as well. We realize our limitations in any case, and look to the Lord in His mercy and grace to save us from this condemnation. This is one way I think the term "infinite" applies: it addresses all the things we cannot possibly repair given our limited understanding and abilities. Edited October 30, 2021 by CV75 1
MustardSeed Posted October 30, 2021 Posted October 30, 2021 7 hours ago, Calm said: Iirc, it is called membership withdrawal these days. Sec 26.5.9 in handbook Apparently I missed the memo. What difference does the title make, do you think?
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