President Oaks Address on the Need for a Church

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even on days when I never hear anything particularly stimulating at church, I’m blessed just from the warmth of being in that place of refuge with likeminded people who share my beliefs about things of the Spirit. Which is why I don’t much like it when politics enters into discourses or discussions, thereby encroaching or infringing on the sanctuary. Or when people hijack a sacred occasion as a personal platform for declaring their sexual orientation or advocacy for controversial positions on social issues — a rare occurrence, certainly, but we all know it has happened and will likely happen again. 

How does one deal with it when politics are brought to church?  How does one feel fellowship of "likeminded" people who refuse to follow the admonitions of the prophet and instead follow their political beliefs/agenda by not wearing a mask to church, or social distancing?  I have a hard time feeling loved at church anymore, honestly - as Elder Renlund suggested that wearing a mask is a sign of Christ-like love and a fulfilment of the second great commandment.  Politics has corrupted the feelings of warmth and safety in my ward. Politics has certainly encroached on the sanctuary, in my ward at least.  

Edited October 18, 2021 by pogi

[Fether]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Have you spoken to the quorum president about this?  We rarely (almost never) have anything political brought up.  I think everyone is aware that if they do bring up anything of the sort that the conversation will very quickly get interrupted and put back on track.  The only time I can recall anything recently was a conversation between two people before the meeting started, which as soon as I heard it begin I started making a couple announcements. 

We aren’t supposed to talk about politics because it can cause problems. But it can be easy to forget the rule if no problems are being had when people bring up politics. It really wasn’t an issue for me till someone made a certain comment, and me, being as vocal as I am, challenged him. The. The scene unfurled. It wasn’t something I did on purpose, but something I realized after the fact

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

I've always tried to be very patient with these kind of people.  I think for some of them it's the only time during the month when people listen to them. 

I think you are right.  

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

How does one deal with it when politics are brought to church?  How does one feel fellowship of "likeminded" people who refuse to follow the admonitions of the prophet and instead follow their political beliefs/agenda by not wearing a mask to church, or social distancing?  I have a hard time feeling loved at church anymore, honestly - as Elder Renlund suggested that wearing a mask is a sign of Christ-like love and a fulfilment of the second great commandment.  Politics has corrupted the feelings of warmth and safety in my ward. Politics has certainly encroached on the sanctuary, in my ward at least.  

That hasn’t been my experience yet. Almost everyone in my ward is masked while at church. 
 

But if it did, I think I would deal with it in the same way I would someone who showed up in casual dress or in something other than traditional Sunday best — by trying not to make an issue of it, even in my private thoughts, by recognizing that the person might have extenuating circumstances to which I’m not privy, and ultimately, it is not my place to judge and that really I would not want that burden even if I thought it was the right thing to do. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Though I would guard against engaging in it myself, I think I can understand the motivation behind the “travelmony,” having visited a few Church historic sites in my time. Encountering the power of place, and perhaps even having had a spiritual experience there, one feels a sense of obligation to share it with others who have not had such an opportunity and maybe never will. It is very easy to forget that a good many people find such a thing annoying. 

I don't think there is anything wrong--or annoying--about sharing a personal experience, such as travel, as background for the testimony that someone is going to share.  In fact, I prefer those kinds of testimonies to others. You are right in that our personal experiences are often what strengthens our testimonies and prompts us to share them.  I don't see a reason to divorce that from the testimony itself.

I think the real trouble is when people go on for too long (and use up more than their share of the meeting) and when the testimony part is an afterthought of what they are sharing, not the point.

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That hasn’t been my experience yet. Almost everyone in my ward is masked while at church. 
 

But if it did, I think I would deal with it in the same way I would someone who showed up in casual dress or in something other than traditional Sunday best — by trying not to make an issue of it, even in my private thoughts, by recognizing that the person might have extenuating circumstances to which I’m not privy, and ultimately, it is not my place to judge and that really I would not want that burden even if I thought it was the right thing to do. 

The difference is that wearing jeans to church and placing other at risk of disease are two very different things.  Wearing church dress to church has never been compared to obeying the second great commandment -wearing a mask has.

I don't make a scene.  I just don't go.  It is not safe there with around half the members not wearing a mask, not distancing, and singing right behind my head and my unvaccinated children's heads.   It is not a sanctuary anymore.  It is a place to avoid due to the politically and physically unsafe environment. 

I am really happy to hear that your ward is being good though. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by pogi

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure telling people if you get nothing out of church attendance you are the failure.  It does not seem to really drill into the core issues as to why people are not going. I doubt that this talk will motivate many non attenders to go back.

I tend to agree with you if that is the takeaway. Some people, who are really hard on themselves, will internalize this message and feel like even more of a failure than they already felt because they don’t feel the spirit every Sunday. Others will dig in their heels even more and say they will not be guilted into attending. I tend to vacillate between the two extremes and I’m trying to find a healthy balance of going to church to get closer to Jesus and my Heavenly Father, and serving others. I need to let everything else roll off my back. But I won’t consider myself a failure if I don’t agree with everything is said and done by other members. I’ve let others determine how I act in the past and it was unhealthy for me and my kids. 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

How does one deal with it when politics are brought to church?  How does one feel fellowship of "likeminded" people who refuse to follow the admonitions of the prophet and instead follow their political beliefs/agenda by not wearing a mask to church, or social distancing?  I have a hard time feeling loved at church anymore, honestly - as Elder Renlund suggested that wearing a mask is a sign of Christ-like love and a fulfilment of the second great commandment.  Politics has corrupted the feelings of warmth and safety in my ward. Politics has certainly encroached on the sanctuary, in my ward at least.  

Sometimes I think we have to stop trying to feel loved and just work on trying to love others, as really really hard as it is sometimes.  I think Christ is the perfect example of that, and also the only way that it is ever even possible, especially in some situations.

As much as we want charity from others, I think we have to remember that we also are commanded to provide that charity to others, even when we don't believe they deserve it.  Such a very hard thing to do most of the time, but I do believe that trying to do that, or at least wanting to, is what being a disciple of Christ means.

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, Fether said:

We aren’t supposed to talk about politics because it can cause problems. But it can be easy to forget the rule if no problems are being had when people bring up politics. It really wasn’t an issue for me till someone made a certain comment, and me, being as vocal as I am, challenged him. The. The scene unfurled. It wasn’t something I did on purpose, but something I realized after the fact

Personally, any mention of politics in church, even those I agree with, makes me uncomfortable. 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Fether said:

We aren’t supposed to talk about politics because it can cause problems. But it can be easy to forget the rule if no problems are being had when people bring up politics. It really wasn’t an issue for me till someone made a certain comment, and me, being as vocal as I am, challenged him. The. The scene unfurled. It wasn’t something I did on purpose, but something I realized after the fact

Wards where politics can be talked about and no one vocally disagrees so no contention happens are kind of dangerous.  Echo chambers make it way too easy for things to get out of hand or incorrect things to be taught or espoused. 

I think it's in those kinds of wards that the rules need to be more tightly enforced.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

How does one deal with it when politics are brought to church?  How does one feel fellowship of "likeminded" people who refuse to follow the admonitions of the prophet and instead follow their political beliefs/agenda by not wearing a mask to church, or social distancing?  I have a hard time feeling loved at church anymore, honestly - as Elder Renlund suggested that wearing a mask is a sign of Christ-like love and a fulfilment of the second great commandment.  Politics has corrupted the feelings of warmth and safety in my ward. Politics has certainly encroached on the sanctuary, in my ward at least.  

Sorry to hear. I mitigate my risk by sitting on the stand although I probably shouldn’t and wouldn’t outside of Covid restrictions since I trust the Bishopric, those who bless, and the Ward Executive Secretary sitting there for the same reason to wear masks. Otherwise I might not go either. My ward is better than most. We had to go back to one hour meetings though as Covid has hit the other two wards in our building hard.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think there is anything wrong--or annoying--about sharing a personal experience, such as travel, as background for the testimony that someone is going to share.  In fact, I prefer those kinds of testimonies to others. You are right in that our personal experiences are often what strengthens our testimonies and prompts us to share them.  I don't see a reason to divorce that from the testimony itself.

I think the real trouble is when people go on for too long (and use up more than their share of the meeting) and when the testimony part is an afterthought of what they are sharing, not the point.

Which is always a problem whether or not it is associated with a travelogue. 

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sometimes I think we have to stop trying to feel loved and just work on trying to love others, as really really hard as it is sometimes.  I think Christ is the perfect example of that, and also the only way that it is ever even possible, especially in some situations.

As much as we want charity from others, I think we have to remember that we also are commanded to provide that charity to others, even when we don't believe they deserve it.  Such a very hard thing to do most of the time, but I do believe that trying to do that, or at least wanting to, is what being a disciple of Christ means.

I think that is really good advice.  

If I could just find a way to feel safe to go to church with unmasked singers, and singing in general, all around my family.  You are right though, it is super, super hard for me to want to love those unmasked people who chose politics over the prophet's admonitions, knowing full well that it makes other members feel unsafe.  It feels like they are giving me the bird. 

Sometimes you just have to love people from a distance, I guess 

[bOObOO]

On 10/16/2021 at 5:59 PM, nuclearfuels said:

The original teaching from President Kimball:

"We do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility, and regardless of what is said from the pulpit, if one wishes to worship the Lord in spirit and in truth, he may do so by attending his meetings, partaking of the sacrament, and contemplating the beauties of the gospel. If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.¹⁸"

This implies to me at least that what is stated at the pulpit is irrelevant. My connection with the Savior is up to me. I get it. That makes sense.

President Oaks:

President Spencer W. Kimball taught that “we do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed. We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility. … If the service is a failure to you, you have failed. No one can worship for you; you must do your own waiting upon the Lord.”⁹

I'm probably misunderstanding or misreading this but it seems to suggest that I'm responsible for the behavior of others in my ward including those who speak, whose words don't really resonate with me or whose testimonies don't really touch me.

Yes, you are misunderstanding and misreading what he said.  He said "we do not go to Sabbath meetings to be entertained or even solely to be instructed" so you should not expect to be entertained or even instructed when you go.

He said 'We go to worship the Lord. It is an individual responsibility' meaning you should go to worship services to worship the Lord and that you are responsible for your own worshipping as you worship the Lord.

On 10/16/2021 at 5:59 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I don't believe it is healthy to blame oneself for the behavior of others and it's not something I'm willing to do anymore.

Good, I don't believe that either.

On 10/16/2021 at 5:59 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Further, I don't think one ward/branch is pretty much like the next. Some are politically in alignment with me/you and some are not in alignment with your/my politics. Some are language branches. Some are wealthy, some are poor. All of these factors influence the degree to which the Spirit is felt cumulatively and individually. 

True ,but none of that makes any difference when it comes to my own worship of the Lord.  Others can be however they are and however they want to be and I can still worship the Lord however I want to worship the Lord.

On 10/16/2021 at 5:59 PM, nuclearfuels said:

This is why I enjoy sitting by myself in the forest outside the church instead of attending Elder's quorum or gospel doctrine.  

 

Whatever floats your boat, I guess.  You can worship the Lord that way or any other way you want to.  And I will worship the Lord however I think is the best way to worship him too.

[The Nehor]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Wards where politics can be talked about and no one vocally disagrees so no contention happens are kind of dangerous.  Echo chambers make it way too easy for things to get out of hand or incorrect things to be taught or espoused. 

I think it's in those kinds of wards that the rules need to be more tightly enforced.

I try to mentally just take it as them testifying of their gospel truths and confessing they worship political idols.

Thinking that way makes me giggle. It probably also makes me uncharitable but at least the service succeeded at entertaining me some so it can’t be all bad.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The difference is that wearing jeans to church and placing other at risk of disease are two very different things.  Wearing church dress to church has never been compared to obeying the second great commandment -wearing a mask has.

Arguably, it could be linked to the first great commandment, as wearing one’s best to church is a matter of reverence, and reverence at its heart is showing love and respect to God. 
 

But I’m not going to get into it, as I’ve already declared my intent not to judge maskless or jeans-wearing churchgoers, especially while at church. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I try to mentally just take it as them testifying of their gospel truths and confessing they worship political idols.

Thinking that way makes me giggle. It probably also makes me uncharitable but at least the service succeeded at entertaining me some so it can’t be all bad.

As long as you are good with them believing the same way about your political ideologies I don’t think it’s a bad thing. 😂

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

As long as you are good with them believing the same way about your political ideologies I don’t think it’s a bad thing. 😂

I don’t bear testimony about my political views so I doubt it comes up.

[bluebell]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I don’t bear testimony about my political views so I doubt it comes up.

When it happens on here then. 😂

[bOObOO]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Wards where politics can be talked about and no one vocally disagrees so no contention happens are kind of dangerous.  Echo chambers make it way too easy for things to get out of hand or incorrect things to be taught or espoused. 

I think it's in those kinds of wards that the rules need to be more tightly enforced.

I think the idea behind the no politics discussed here rule is the idea that Church worship services are not a proper forum for political discussion.  We go to those meetings for religious purposes, for our own religion, not for any political purpose.

I'd love it if anytime someone had a political idea while in a Church worship services they would just say to themselves, okay, this is not the place to discuss or even think about this, and then just get themselves back in gear to worship the Lord.

I don't even want to hear a political message that I agree with when I am in a worship service to worship the Lord.  It just isn't and would not be appropriate or conducive to my worship of the Lord, so I would just tune it out or ignore it if I heard it.

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

When it happens on here then. 😂

Driving people nuts to amuse my jaded soul crusted over in anhedonia trying to get a small endorphin buzz.

If I ever do so in a testimony bearing manner though please denounce me loudly and publicly.

[nuclearfuels]

11 hours ago, Fether said:

Why is elders quorum such an awful experience for you, but for so few others?

Probably due to the 2 or 3 people who weekly bring up totally unrelated political talking points. 

[Fether]

19 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Probably due to the 2 or 3 people who weekly bring up totally unrelated political talking points. 

Why do you think some use this as a reason to not go to EQ while others go without being phased by it?

[Peacefully]

33 minutes ago, Fether said:

Why do you think some use this as a reason to not go to EQ while others go without being phased by it?

Why do the people who insist on being political get a pass while people like Nuclear are made to feel as if they are doing something wrong?

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Why do the people who insist on being political get a pass while people like Nuclear are made to feel as if they are doing something wrong?

Because the people making the comments are very fragile people.