Hie to Kolob Lyrics

[smac97]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

I have been asked to sing in a men's trio in an upcoming Sacrament meeting. Last night we had our first practice. We are singing the medley of "Come thou Fount" and "Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful medley that seems to have been made popular by three church member sisters.

If You could Hie to Kolob is one of my favorite hymns.  I have even thought of having portions of verses 3 and 5 as my epitaph:

Quote

The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
...
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.

Probably too verbose, tho.

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

Prior to last night I knew of "Hie to Kolob" but had never really looked at the words. I don't understand them and would appreciate some help interpreting them. We sing "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity find out the generation where Gods began to be?" Then we sing "Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?" When I got home I looked up more verses and found a series of lines - "There is no end to" . . this or that. . . .

I concur with the comments posted previously about the lyrics posting, and then answering, rhetorical questions.

I think the lyrics pertain to ideas expressed by Joseph Smith in his "Sermon in the Grove" in June 1844.  See here:

Quote

Question

Gramps,

Thanks for your wonderful site and work. As a boy I read a quote from Joseph given in answer to where God came from. He said something like.” Was there ever a father who was not first a son..or a son who cannot become as his father?” I have searched and cannot find it. Does this sound familiar to you??  God be with you,

Joel

Answer

Joel,

Your quote comes from Joseph Smith’s Sermon in the Grove. It was given June 16, 1844 in a grove of trees just east of the Nauvoo Temple. In it, Joseph establishes that each member of the Godhead is a separate and distinct God, and those who merit exaltation become gods (but we don’t worship them). His primary text is Revelation 1:6 – “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.”

In the middle of this discourse, Joseph shares this:

I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the God of heaven. “In order to do that,” said he, “suppose we have two facts: that supposes another fact may exist — two men on the earth, one wise than the other, would logically show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist. Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.”

If Abraham reasoned thus — If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

See also here.  And here.  And here.

See also this: How a Different Tune Popularized the Hymn "If You Could Hie to Kolob"

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

I found the words a bit unsettling and certainly confusing. It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. Perhaps he was writing at the height of the discussions about matter by Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? Christ didn't create . . . he organized pre-existing matter, etc?

I don't think that's the context.  And "create" and "organized pre-existing matter" are not, I think, mutually exclusive concepts.

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

I know the Seer was controversial and ultimately rejected by the leaders.  In LDS doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father as a heavenly spirit child would perhaps not be considered eternal from His beginning, is that incorrect? At the other end of time, Is there a time when Heavenly Father and exalted celestial kingdom dwellers (Gods in a different sense) will end? To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

I think the answers to the rhetorical questions is "No."

Verse 1: "If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward With that same speed to fly, Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity, Find out the generation Where Gods began to be?"

First part of Verse 2: "Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?  Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?"

The rest of Verse 2 starts the answer: "Methinks the Spirit whispers, 'No man has found "pure space," Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.'"

Verses 3-5 then recite a litany of unending things.  "There is no end to..."

For me, this if fascinating, and mystifying, stuff.  I do not think we are situated to be able to fully comprehend these things.  

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

I hope you can understand how confusing the words of the song are to someone who is more or less interacting with them for the first time.

Sure.  

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

I would appreciate your insights into the orthodoxy, etiology, and meaning (from an LDS perspective) of the lyrics to this song. Is it of a genre of a simple folk song that we aren't to try and interpret too literally?

I'm not sure what you mean here.  The melody is a folk song, but the lyrics are profoundly doctrinal.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

 

If You could Hie to Kolob is one of my favorite hymns.  I have even thought of having portions of verses 3 and 5 as my epitaph:

Quote

The works of God continue,
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
...
There is no end to glory;
There is no end to love;
There is no end to being;
There is no death above.

Probably too verbose, tho.

You’d need an engraver with the patience, if not the skill, of Mormon. 

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

So how did it go?

I forgot. 😞 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I forgot. 😞 

If you could hie to yesterday...

[Rivers]

11 hours ago, bOObOO said:

I'm glad that you have this time to think about what you will be singing.  I feel the Spirit when I sing it while I think about what those words mean.  And I substitute the word "you" for "I" when I sing it.

 Lyrics

 

 

1. If you I could hie to Kolob

   In the twinkling of an eye,

   And then continue onward

   With that same speed to fly,

   Do you I think that you I could ever,

   Through all eternity,

   Find out the generation

   Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

   Where space did not extend?

   Or view the last creation,

   Where Gods and matter end?

   Methinks the Spirit whispers,

   “No man has found ‘pure space,’

   Nor seen the outside curtains,

   Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,

   And worlds and lives abound;

   Improvement and progression

   Have one eternal round.

   There is no end to matter;

   There is no end to space;

   There is no end to spirit;

   There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

   There is no end to might;

   There is no end to wisdom;

   There is no end to light.

   There is no end to union;

   There is no end to youth;

   There is no end to priesthood;

   There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

   There is no end to love;

   There is no end to being;

   There is no death above.

   There is no end to glory;

   There is no end to love;

   There is no end to being;

   There is no death above.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872

🎶There is no end to this song …🎶

[Esrom]

This modernized version is my favorite

[theplains]

On 7/24/2021 at 10:06 AM, JLHPROF said:

It's not suggesting that Gods and matter have a beginning or an end.  It's rhetorical question with a negative response.

No, the race of the Gods have no beginning, and they'll never end.  Same with their creations.  There is no first generation and there will be no last generation.  It's a song of eternal progression.

Do you agree with Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father (of Earth) was once a man
who became a God and that he was not God from everlasting to everlasting?

[Tacenda]

Take this with a grain of salt, but someone online somewhere said they knew for a fact that the song, "Praise to Man", will no longer be in the new hymn books. It will be interesting to see what is in the new ones. What will be added and subtracted.

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you agree with Joseph Smith's teaching that Heavenly Father (of Earth) was once a man
who became a God and that he was not God from everlasting to everlasting?

Yes, 100%.
But then I see the term everlasting in not so much infinite terms.

Edited August 2, 2021 by JLHPROF

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Take this with a grain of salt, but someone online somewhere said they knew for a fact that the song, "Praise to Man", will no longer be in the new hymn books. It will be interesting to see what is in the new ones. What will be added and subtracted.

That's sad.

But hymns come and go.  And it wouldn't surprise me given our very slow but steady move towards traditional Christianity and away from our unique beliefs.
That hymn was already altered once to make it more palatable.

[Calm]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:56 AM, Tacenda said:

Take this with a grain of salt, but someone online somewhere said they knew for a fact that the song, "Praise to Man", will no longer be in the new hymn books. It will be interesting to see what is in the new ones. What will be added and subtracted.

At all or just not in the shortened worldwide hard copy?  Might it still be included in the digital library?

I would be rather surprised if it was in the hard copy and and surprised if missing from the digital.

And unless the source gave their name, the name of their source and how they knew, my response is this:  

Edited August 7, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

On 7/24/2021 at 7:08 AM, Navidad said:

It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. 

Close, it is Irish.  It is a fabulous melody that sounds so good on my mandolin.  Some argue that it is originally an English tune because of the name Kingsfold (named after an English town), but come on, that is as Irish as it gets!   Some scholars believe the melody is as old as the middle ages.  There are a variety of texts written over the melody through the years. 

Here is a popular Irish folk rendition of the melody called Star of the County Down.  This is the version most commonly played at bluegrass jam sessions that I have attended.  Absolutely fabulous rendition!

It was first made into a hymn called I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say, in 1906.  That is the hymn that inspired Phelps to write Ih you Could High to Kolob, when he first heard it while serving in England.   Interestingly, this version is performed by the Southern California Latter-day Saint Choir:

a

Edited August 4, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

I like the lyrics of the original hymn so much better.  Read these lyrics while listening to the hymn above and try not to cry.  It is so much easier to relate to these lyrics on a much deeper level, although I do enjoy If you Could Hie to Kolob for other reasons too.  The rendition above is absolutely pristinely gorgeous. 

1 I heard the voice of Jesus say, 
“Come unto me and rest.
Lay down, O weary one, 
lay down your head upon my breast.”
I came to Jesus as I was, 
so weary, worn, and sad.
I found in him a resting place,
and he has made me glad.

2 I heard the voice of Jesus say, 
“Behold, I freely give 
the living water, thirsty one; 
stoop down and drink and live.”
I came to Jesus, and I drank 
of that life-giving stream.
My thirst was quenched, my soul revived,
and now I live in him.

3 I heard the voice of Jesus say,
“I am the dawning light.
Look unto me, your morn shall rise,
and all your day be bright.”
I looked to Jesus, and I found 
in him my star, my sun,
and in that light of life I’ll walk 
till trav’ling days are done.

Edited August 4, 2021 by pogi

[USU78]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:28 PM, InCognitus said:

I had an inkling of an understanding of the meaning, but I looked it up in the 1828 Websters Dictionary anyway before I made my post, and I got a chuckle out of how it phrased its usage:

In other words, very few people use the word unless they are trying to do fancy poetry.

"Tim, Tim Benzedrine!

Hash! Boo! Valvoline!

First, Second, Neutral, Park!

Hie thee hence, you leafy narc!"

Like that?

[Scott Lloyd]

On 8/2/2021 at 8:56 AM, Tacenda said:

Take this with a grain of salt, but someone online somewhere said they knew for a fact that the song, "Praise to Man", will no longer be in the new hymn books. It will be interesting to see what is in the new ones. What will be added and subtracted.

The writer of the following blog post (see link) identifies a “core” group of hymns that have been carried forward in our hymn books through the ages and are likely to be perpetuated in the forthcoming one. “Praise to the Man” is among that core group. I submit that this is not just because of its popularity among the Latter-day Saints but because there is none better for paying homage to the beloved prophet of the Restoration and because it teaches doctrinal truths regarding him. I can’t think of a compelling, or even a persuasive, reason why it should be dropped.

 

https://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2018/06/the-new-lds-hymnbook-changes-and-possibilities/

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The writer of the following blog post (see link) identifies a “core” group of hymns that have been carried forward in our hymn books through the ages and are likely to be perpetuated in the forthcoming one. “Praise to the Man” is among that core group. I submit that this is not just because of its popularity among the Latter-day Saints but because there is none better for paying homage to the beloved prophet of the Restoration and because it teaches doctrinal truths regarding him. I can’t think of a compelling, or even a persuasive, reason why it should be dropped.

 

https://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2018/06/the-new-lds-hymnbook-changes-and-possibilities/

Well the person spreading that false rumor needs to be told. I will sure try to reach them, now need to remember where I saw the comment. 

@Scott Lloyd I read through and didn't see it, what paragraph, when or if you have time. 

 

Edited August 8, 2021 by Tacenda

[sheilauk]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

@Scott Lloyd I read through and didn't see it, what paragraph, when or if you have time. 

 

Paras 4 and 5 I think, tacenda. He refers to the core hymns and puts the list in an appendix,  you need to go to the end of the article where there is a list of hymns, which he suggests are the core hymns.  praise to the man is in that list. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by sheilauk

[Bernard Gui]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:55 PM, Stargazer said:

Here are a couple of references that might be helpful:

How a Different Tune Popularized the Hymn "If You Could Hie to Kolob" from The Tabernacle Choir Blog

History of Hymns: If You Could Hie to Kolob from the Mormon Channel

 

Which show how an excellent melody can dress up a poetic text that may be less than stellar. The best hymns combine good text with good melody.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well the person spreading that false rumor needs to be told. I will sure try to reach them, now need to remember where I saw the comment. 

In all fairness, I think both the person spreading the rumor and the writer of the post in my link are indulging in conjecture. But I happen to agree with the writer of the post in my link. 

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The writer of the following blog post (see link) identifies a “core” group of hymns that have been carried forward in our hymn books through the ages and are likely to be perpetuated in the forthcoming one. “Praise to the Man” is among that core group. I submit that this is not just because of its popularity among the Latter-day Saints but because there is none better for paying homage to the beloved prophet of the Restoration and because it teaches doctrinal truths regarding him. I can’t think of a compelling, or even a persuasive, reason why it should be dropped.

https://www.timesandseasons.org/harchive/2018/06/the-new-lds-hymnbook-changes-and-possibilities/

From the article…

Quote

Based on trends within the Church, the history of hymnbooks in Mormonism, and the statements that have been made about the forthcoming books, what might the new hymn and song books look like? There are a number of faucets to examine in considering this question, including continuity with past hymnals, new LDS music available for use, what might be removed and changed, and the hymnbook and songbook’s relationships to the general Christian tradition of music, and the tunes being used.

Committee members are anxiously plunging into the effort. Data is expected to pour forth from many sources as the committee plumbs the history of LDS hymns. They will also tap into web sources of contemporary hymn writers.  Hymns referring to the Salt Lake basin will be removed. Blessings will shower forth on the Church for decades to come. Leaking the contents of the hymnal before publication could sink the project.  The group formed a sub-committee to limit the flow of information and handle any potential drips.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Kenngo1969]

On 8/6/2021 at 7:26 PM, USU78 said:

"Tim, Tim Benzedrine!

Hash! Boo! Valvoline!

First, Second, Neutral, Park!

Hie thee hence, you leafy narc!"

Like that?

Good to Cyber-see you, My Friend.

I'm sorry for your recent loss, but I hope you take joy in the resurrection.

[Tacenda]

21 hours ago, sheilauk said:

Paras 4 and 5 I think, tacenda. He refers to the core hymns and puts the list in an appendix,  you need to go to the end of the article where there is a list of hymns, which he suggests are the core hymns.  praise to the man is in that list. 

Thanks sheilauk!

[USU78]

7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Good to Cyber-see you, My Friend.

I'm sorry for your recent loss, but I hope you take joy in the resurrection.

It's actually been just short of a year. So much kindness. Even in the manner of his death.

 

Thanks for the kind words.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/6/2021 at 6:26 PM, USU78 said:

"Tim, Tim Benzedrine!

Hash! Boo! Valvoline!

First, Second, Neutral, Park!

Hie thee hence, you leafy narc!"

Like that?

Good to see you! You have been missed!

[USU78]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good to see you! You have been missed!

Toe in the shallow end. Who's that munching?

Did you recognize the Harvard Lampoon's Bored of the Rings quote?

Edited August 10, 2021 by USU78