Hie to Kolob Lyrics

[Navidad]

I have been asked to sing in a men's trio in an upcoming Sacrament meeting. Last night we had our first practice. We are singing the medley of "Come thou Fount" and "Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful medley that seems to have been made popular by three church member sisters.

Prior to last night I knew of "Hie to Kolob" but had never really looked at the words. I don't understand them and would appreciate some help interpreting them. We sing "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity find out the generation where Gods began to be?" Then we sing "Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?" When I got home I looked up more verses and found a series of lines - "There is no end to" . . this or that. . . .

I found the words a bit unsettling and certainly confusing. It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. Perhaps he was writing at the height of the discussions about matter by Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? Christ didn't create . . . he organized pre-existing matter, etc? I know the Seer was controversial and ultimately rejected by the leaders.  In LDS doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father as a heavenly spirit child would perhaps not be considered eternal from His beginning, is that incorrect? At the other end of time, Is there a time when Heavenly Father and exalted celestial kingdom dwellers (Gods in a different sense) will end? To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

I hope you can understand how confusing the words of the song are to someone who is more or less interacting with them for the first time. I would appreciate your insights into the orthodoxy, etiology, and meaning (from an LDS perspective) of the lyrics to this song. Is it of a genre of a simple folk song that we aren't to try and interpret too literally? The meter, tempo (lots of rests), harmonies, and changing time signatures (especially the  6/4) are challenging enough; I don't want to be focusing on and confused by the words at the same time! Thanks so very much.

[JLHPROF]

It's not suggesting that Gods and matter have a beginning or an end.  It's rhetorical question with a negative response.

No, the race of the Gods have no beginning, and they'll never end.  Same with their creations.  There is no first generation and there will be no last generation.  It's a song of eternal progression.

[Hamba Tuhan]

57 minutes ago, Navidad said:

To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

They're rhetorical questions. If you could travel immeasurable distances in the twinkling of an eye, do you think you could find the beginning or end?

Answer: No, there is no end to etc., etc., etc.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Duplicate.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's rhetorical question with a negative response.

Jinx.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

It's not suggesting that Gods and matter have a beginning or an end.  It's rhetorical question with a negative response.

No, the race of the Gods have no beginning, and they'll never end.  Same with their creations.  There is no first generation and there will be no last generation.  It's a song of eternal progression.

Thanks so much. Perhaps if I am understanding correctly, the first few verses ask the questions and the last few verses provide the answers, substituting the qualities of the Christian God (love, wisdom, and truth) for the personage.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I have been asked to sing in a men's trio in an upcoming Sacrament meeting. Last night we had our first practice. We are singing the medley of "Come thou Fount" and "Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful medley that seems to have been made popular by three church member sisters.

Prior to last night I knew of "Hie to Kolob" but had never really looked at the words. I don't understand them and would appreciate some help interpreting them. We sing "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity find out the generation where Gods began to be?" Then we sing "Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?" When I got home I looked up more verses and found a series of lines - "There is no end to" . . this or that. . . .

I found the words a bit unsettling and certainly confusing. It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. Perhaps he was writing at the height of the discussions about matter by Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? Christ didn't create . . . he organized pre-existing matter, etc? I know the Seer was controversial and ultimately rejected by the leaders.  In LDS doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father as a heavenly spirit child would perhaps not be considered eternal from His beginning, is that incorrect? At the other end of time, Is there a time when Heavenly Father and exalted celestial kingdom dwellers (Gods in a different sense) will end? To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

I hope you can understand how confusing the words of the song are to someone who is more or less interacting with them for the first time. I would appreciate your insights into the orthodoxy, etiology, and meaning (from an LDS perspective) of the lyrics to this song. Is it of a genre of a simple folk song that we aren't to try and interpret too literally? The meter, tempo (lots of rests), harmonies, and changing time signatures (especially the  6/4) are challenging enough; I don't want to be focusing on and confused by the words at the same time! Thanks so very much.

Forget about the words and just hum your part of the [eternal] round!

 

[Stargazer]

It must be posted in the thread. Uploaded 6 years ago, viewed now by over 17 million people.

Just read the comments to the video; these young ladies have done a great service to many people. I've listened to this many times and it still brings tears to my eyes.

One of the comments: "I’m 13 and I have had a really hard time believing in Jesus. My grandpa recently died and he was my every thing. After he died I hated the church and didn’t believe. I thought that if Jesus loved me he wouldn’t take him away. But after I herd this song I cried . I wanted to thank you so much this song made me believe again and I know you guys are a blessing. Thank you so much"

 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I have been asked to sing in a men's trio in an upcoming Sacrament meeting. Last night we had our first practice. We are singing the medley of "Come thou Fount" and "Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful medley that seems to have been made popular by three church member sisters.

Prior to last night I knew of "Hie to Kolob" but had never really looked at the words. I don't understand them and would appreciate some help interpreting them. We sing "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity find out the generation where Gods began to be?" Then we sing "Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?" When I got home I looked up more verses and found a series of lines - "There is no end to" . . this or that. . . .

I found the words a bit unsettling and certainly confusing. It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. Perhaps he was writing at the height of the discussions about matter by Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? Christ didn't create . . . he organized pre-existing matter, etc? I know the Seer was controversial and ultimately rejected by the leaders.  In LDS doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father as a heavenly spirit child would perhaps not be considered eternal from His beginning, is that incorrect? At the other end of time, Is there a time when Heavenly Father and exalted celestial kingdom dwellers (Gods in a different sense) will end? To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

I hope you can understand how confusing the words of the song are to someone who is more or less interacting with them for the first time. I would appreciate your insights into the orthodoxy, etiology, and meaning (from an LDS perspective) of the lyrics to this song. Is it of a genre of a simple folk song that we aren't to try and interpret too literally? The meter, tempo (lots of rests), harmonies, and changing time signatures (especially the  6/4) are challenging enough; I don't want to be focusing on and confused by the words at the same time! Thanks so very much.

Here are a couple of references that might be helpful:

How a Different Tune Popularized the Hymn "If You Could Hie to Kolob" from The Tabernacle Choir Blog

History of Hymns: If You Could Hie to Kolob from the Mormon Channel

 

[InCognitus]

And here I came to this thread thinking that the question was going to be about the word "hie".  How often do we use that word these days?

[Stargazer]

4 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

And here I came to this thread thinking that the question was going to be about the word "hie".  How often do we use that word these days?

The word means "hasten". See -> Dictionary.com "hie"

Well, maybe you knew that already. Others perhaps did not. I didn't until about 15 minutes ago.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Stargazer

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

And here I came to this thread thinking that the question was going to be about the word "hie".  How often do we use that word these days?

 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

The word means "hasten". See -> Dictionary.com "hie"

Well, maybe you knew that already. Others perhaps did not. I didn't until about 15 minutes ago.

Several years ago, my family and I hied to Kolob — Kolob Canyon near St. George, Utah. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

The word means "hasten". See -> Dictionary.com "hie"

Well, maybe you knew that already. Others perhaps did not. I didn't until about 15 minutes ago.

You have to find a way to use it in conversation at least three times today. 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

The word means "hasten". See -> Dictionary.com "hie"

Well, maybe you knew that already. Others perhaps did not. I didn't until about 15 minutes ago.

I had an inkling of an understanding of the meaning, but I looked it up in the 1828 Websters Dictionary anyway before I made my post, and I got a chuckle out of how it phrased its usage:

Quote

HIE, verb intransitive

1. To hasten; to move or run with haste; to go in haste; a word chiefly used in poetry.

The youth, returning to his mistress, hies.

2. With the reciprocal pronoun; as, hie thee home.

HIE, noun Haste; diligence.

In other words, very few people use the word unless they are trying to do fancy poetry.

Edited July 24, 2021 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You have to find a way to use it in conversation at least three times today. 

Hie thee to the Batmobile!

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Just read the comments to the video; these young ladies have done a great service to many people. I've listened to this many times and it still brings tears to my eyes.

I will be sure to post the video - oops no videos in Sacrament meeting! I will be sure to post the secretive audio of our performance on this thread. I am sure it will bring tears to your ears!

The name of our trio is "The Farnsworths and the Mennonite." Ha!

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You have to find a way to use it in conversation at least three times today. 

I won't be running into too many people today! Maybe tomorrow, at church...

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

And here I came to this thread thinking that the question was going to be about the word "hie".  How often do we use that word these days?

That's  just proves that we don't GET hie.

Word of wisdom and all....

 

 

Edited July 25, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I will be sure to post the video - oops no videos in Sacrament meeting! I will be sure to post the secretive audio of our performance on this thread. I am sure it will bring tears to your ears!

The name of our trio is "The Farnsworths and the Mennonite." Ha!

See? I told you that you had not been taught much of our Doctrine!

[Rivers]

I like this rendition.

[mfbukowski]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:08 AM, Navidad said:

I have been asked to sing in a men's trio in an upcoming Sacrament meeting. Last night we had our first practice. We are singing the medley of "Come thou Fount" and "Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful medley that seems to have been made popular by three church member sisters.

Prior to last night I knew of "Hie to Kolob" but had never really looked at the words. I don't understand them and would appreciate some help interpreting them. We sing "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity find out the generation where Gods began to be?" Then we sing "Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?" When I got home I looked up more verses and found a series of lines - "There is no end to" . . this or that. . . .

I found the words a bit unsettling and certainly confusing. It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. Perhaps he was writing at the height of the discussions about matter by Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? Christ didn't create . . . he organized pre-existing matter, etc? I know the Seer was controversial and ultimately rejected by the leaders.  In LDS doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father as a heavenly spirit child would perhaps not be considered eternal from His beginning, is that incorrect? At the other end of time, Is there a time when Heavenly Father and exalted celestial kingdom dwellers (Gods in a different sense) will end? To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

I hope you can understand how confusing the words of the song are to someone who is more or less interacting with them for the first time. I would appreciate your insights into the orthodoxy, etiology, and meaning (from an LDS perspective) of the lyrics to this song. Is it of a genre of a simple folk song that we aren't to try and interpret too literally? The meter, tempo (lots of rests), harmonies, and changing time signatures (especially the  6/4) are challenging enough; I don't want to be focusing on and confused by the words at the same time! Thanks so very much.

I responded on the "Hie to Kolob" thread with this same response, but I thought it was also appropriate here since I speak of the idea of "generations of Gods"

Remember - if this helps- I never think about what the "reality" of any idea is- because we cannot know that- we cannot think about a chair chair being full of space because of the distance between the atoms, but while sitting down that chair must be solid as a rock!  So what is important to me is the IDEA- the paradigm- that we need to believe for the moment.  If we really saw a chair as a swirling network of little balls we might never sit down! 

So here are some ideas- some paradigms I believe at the moment:

Quote

 

I think there ARE absolute truths- which I think will be surprising to hear from me, but they are truths of experience- like for example "You should do unto others as you would have them do unto you".  This is not something deduced but something which can be observed through experience in living in society.  It is ALWAYS THE BEST COURSE in dealing with others and has "survival value" in society.   No one wants to live in a place where crime runs rampant, where stealing and robbery and murder happen all the time.  We always want peace- that is part of what we ARE.   And so if all follow that idea, we would live in peaceful places which allow for traditional family life- without going into details, each of those prinicples which allow traditional family life to flourish are also true in the same way.

This kind of truth is not factual- it not a scientific truth like the boiling point of water, it does not "correspond to reality" but it IS a truth that allows humanity to flourish.   It "works" every single time.

"There is nothing constant but change" is I think another one of those statements which also is always true- and that goes back to a Greek philosopher named Heraclitus who taught that our personal stream of experience is like stepping into a river which is changing every second- leaves and branches flow down the river, the banks of the river pick up mud and deposit it elsewhere, etc. and he said that "You cannot step into the same river twice"

Of course that is speaking in two contexts at once- the same debris and contents of the river are never exactly the same, and yet the process of change itself is "eternal" as long as the river exists.  So in one sense, it will always be "The Mississippi River" yet from nanosecond to nanosecond the river is not the "same" as it was.

So we know what truth is when we see it, we know what true or false means, but the word has so many contexts that one cannot come up with a definition which applies to every situation at all times.   So even "eternal truth" like the eternal river flowing downstream changes and progresses.

And that I think that is a good analogy for eternal revelation.  Eternal truth can be seen as a PROCESS of revelation instead of a list of supposedly unchangeable facts which in fact change as humanity itself changes.   One can see the river without worrying about the location of sticks flowing downstream, and thereby be always developing and changing while also being constant and eternal.

And I think this also applies to the "Hie to Kolob" thread.

There will always be an Eternal Father even if the person who occupies the position changes.    OUR Father will always be OUR FATHER- but if there are other Fathers for other universes etc?  Those speculations are far beyond our ability to process.

There will always be books of scripture even if they are written by different people, for different cultures and times.  Same principle

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

On 7/24/2021 at 12:07 PM, InCognitus said:

And here I came to this thread thinking that the question was going to be about the word "hie".  How often do we use that word these days?

Hi.  

  

[The Nehor]

Heigh! Hie thee high to the mountains!

[Scott Lloyd]

On 7/24/2021 at 1:26 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

You have to find a way to use it in conversation at least three times today. 

 

On 7/24/2021 at 7:37 PM, Stargazer said:

I won't be running into too many people today! Maybe tomorrow, at church...

So how did it go?

[bOObOO]

On 7/24/2021 at 6:08 AM, Navidad said:

I have been asked to sing in a men's trio in an upcoming Sacrament meeting. Last night we had our first practice. We are singing the medley of "Come thou Fount" and "Hie to Kolob." It is a beautiful medley that seems to have been made popular by three church member sisters.

Prior to last night I knew of "Hie to Kolob" but had never really looked at the words. I don't understand them and would appreciate some help interpreting them. We sing "Do you think that you could ever, through all eternity find out the generation where Gods began to be?" Then we sing "Or view the last creation where Gods and matter end?" When I got home I looked up more verses and found a series of lines - "There is no end to" . . this or that. . . .

I found the words a bit unsettling and certainly confusing. It seems to me to be a Scottish folk song genre written by the old and popular William Phelps. Perhaps he was writing at the height of the discussions about matter by Orson Pratt or Brigham Young? Christ didn't create . . . he organized pre-existing matter, etc? I know the Seer was controversial and ultimately rejected by the leaders.  In LDS doctrine, I thought Heavenly Father as a heavenly spirit child would perhaps not be considered eternal from His beginning, is that incorrect? At the other end of time, Is there a time when Heavenly Father and exalted celestial kingdom dwellers (Gods in a different sense) will end? To answer the speculative question in the lyrics, when in LDS theology did indeed matter and God "begin to be" and when will they "end?" If there comes a time when Gods no longer exist, how can there be no end to glory, love, wisdom, and truth, as further verses declare?

I hope you can understand how confusing the words of the song are to someone who is more or less interacting with them for the first time. I would appreciate your insights into the orthodoxy, etiology, and meaning (from an LDS perspective) of the lyrics to this song. Is it of a genre of a simple folk song that we aren't to try and interpret too literally? The meter, tempo (lots of rests), harmonies, and changing time signatures (especially the  6/4) are challenging enough; I don't want to be focusing on and confused by the words at the same time! Thanks so very much.

I'm glad that you have this time to think about what you will be singing.  I feel the Spirit when I sing it while I think about what those words mean.  And I substitute the word "you" for "I" when I sing it.

 Lyrics

1. If you I could hie to Kolob

   In the twinkling of an eye,

   And then continue onward

   With that same speed to fly,

   Do you I think that you I could ever,

   Through all eternity,

   Find out the generation

   Where Gods began to be?

2. Or see the grand beginning,

   Where space did not extend?

   Or view the last creation,

   Where Gods and matter end?

   Methinks the Spirit whispers,

   “No man has found ‘pure space,’

   Nor seen the outside curtains,

   Where nothing has a place.”

3. The works of God continue,

   And worlds and lives abound;

   Improvement and progression

   Have one eternal round.

   There is no end to matter;

   There is no end to space;

   There is no end to spirit;

   There is no end to race.

4. There is no end to virtue;

   There is no end to might;

   There is no end to wisdom;

   There is no end to light.

   There is no end to union;

   There is no end to youth;

   There is no end to priesthood;

   There is no end to truth.

5. There is no end to glory;

   There is no end to love;

   There is no end to being;

   There is no death above.

   There is no end to glory;

   There is no end to love;

   There is no end to being;

   There is no death above.

Text: William W. Phelps, 1792–1872