exvangelical Well, it has finally happened: Goodbye to theism and my mormon 'opponents' 👋

[cksalmon]

Long-time board participants may remember me as a (mostly) level-headed Evangelical Christian of the Calvinist variety who started studying Mormonism (as a cult) while at a (Southern Baptist) seminary. This farewell post is mostly for them. Others are free to move on to something more interesting. 

Farewell, you say? 

Yes, I think so. I mean, I haven't posted in many, many moons. And since that time, I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), so there's really just no reason for me to "correct" or convert you fine Mormon folks and/or stand up against Mormon attacks on my cherished theological beliefs with the most righteous indignation allowable by law. 

I think that's a win-win scenario for all concerned. 😁

You know what's interesting, though? When I now consider Mormonism vs EV Christianity vs RCC, etc., purely in terms of manmade mythologies, I actually think Mormonism is the better story (in general, that is; there are parts I don't like at all, too). It very nearly pained me to write that given the emotional muscle memory associated with this discussion board. Ha. 

AMA if there's any interest. Otherwise, to my Internet friends here (if any are still hanging about), happy trails!

Edited June 10, 2021 by cksalmon
capitalization

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, cksalmon said:

I think that's a win-win scenario for all concerned.

I respectfully disagree! But I am sincerely happy to wish you well!

[3DOP]

ck salmon...I remember you...

It has been "many moons". I am one of the RCC's. 

If you have a desire to tell your story more fully, I would be interested. I suspect others of all persuasions too.

I am not interested in being the best of man-made mythologies. I doubt that our LDS friends can be enthused with that either.

We are all on journeys, from cradle to grave. None of us are finished if we are on this forum. What, in your mind, has brought about your change of mind, attitude, opinion?

If your trails seem happy...I would not be the one to divert you from your present path. 

cksalmon...non theist...I think we will all listen to your story with interest, if you are inclined to share. Without your invitation, I would be hesitant to offer criticism about what you are thinking today, in 2021. 

Regards,

3DOP, aka Rory (I don't recall any conflict. Maybe we didn't interact. But you left a fine impression.)

All my best.

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, cksalmon said:

Otherwise, to my Internet friends here (if any are still hanging about), happy trails!

Hope your life is full and wonderful. 

[strappinglad]

Happy trials you mean. We are all in this leaky boat together. 

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

I am not interested in being the best of man-made mythologies. I doubt that our LDS friends can be enthused with that either.

I personally am pathetic enough to take such marginal wins as wins.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Happy trials you mean. We are all in this leaky boat together. 

If ck had been around more lately so I could be sure of his sense of humor, I would have added “...because if you are right, that is all you are getting (insert laughing uproariously at my own wit)...”.

I am almost certain because of my memories of him he wouldn’t be offended even if he only vaguely remembers my views, but that slight feeling of awkwardness kept me quiet...until now, of course.   

I personally think nontheists can find meaning in their life beyond their life span, so the gotcha is not what I actually think though I am very grateful and dependent on my own belief there is more for me personally and not reincarnation, but Celestialville.  If you can manage without it when life is difficult, I tend to be impressed.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, 3DOP said:

I doubt that our LDS friends can be enthused with that either.

Depends on what we are competing about or for.  

Edited June 10, 2021 by Calm

[ttribe]

@cksalmonI remember you well and I, too, have left theism behind in the intervening years.  I hope you find much happiness as you move forward. 

[Kenngo1969]

I'll chime in with an excerpt from something I wrote a few years ago.  I'm going from memory, but who cares if I get it wrong since I'm the one who wrote it in the first place?

"As hard as it is for me to envision a workable system of morality without some kind of Deity at its center, if you are an honest, upright, decent, moral, caring individual who does his or her best to love others, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and to make life as good as you can make it for family, friends, and others for as long as possible before (from your perspective) succumbing to the void, more power to you."

Best wishes.

[jkwilliams]

7 hours ago, cksalmon said:

Long-time board participants may remember me as a (mostly) level-headed Evangelical Christian of the Calvinist variety who started studying Mormonism (as a cult) while at a (Southern Baptist) seminary. This farewell post is mostly for them. Others are free to move on to something more interesting. 

Farewell, you say? 

Yes, I think so. I mean, I haven't posted in many, many moons. And since that time, I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), so there's really just no reason for me to "correct" or convert you fine Mormon folks and/or stand up against Mormon attacks on my cherished theological beliefs with the most righteous indignation allowable by law. 

I think that's a win-win scenario for all concerned. 😁

You know what's interesting, though? When I now consider Mormonism vs EV Christianity vs RCC, etc., purely in terms of manmade mythologies, I actually think Mormonism is the better story (in general, that is; there are parts I don't like at all, too). It very nearly pained me to write that given the emotional muscle memory associated with this discussion board. Ha. 

AMA if there's any interest. Otherwise, to my Internet friends here (if any are still hanging about), happy trails!

I’m sure that has been a painful journey for you. You’re a good man, and I value our friendship (and the amazing work you did designing the cover for my book). Welcome to the dark side, my friend, and give KA my best. 

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, cksalmon said:

Long-time board participants may remember me as a (mostly) level-headed Evangelical Christian of the Calvinist variety who started studying Mormonism (as a cult) while at a (Southern Baptist) seminary. This farewell post is mostly for them. Others are free to move on to something more interesting. 

Farewell, you say? 

Yes, I think so. I mean, I haven't posted in many, many moons. And since that time, I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), so there's really just no reason for me to "correct" or convert you fine Mormon folks and/or stand up against Mormon attacks on my cherished theological beliefs with the most righteous indignation allowable by law. 

I think that's a win-win scenario for all concerned. 😁

You know what's interesting, though? When I now consider Mormonism vs EV Christianity vs RCC, etc., purely in terms of manmade mythologies, I actually think Mormonism is the better story (in general, that is; there are parts I don't like at all, too). It very nearly pained me to write that given the emotional muscle memory associated with this discussion board. Ha. 

AMA if there's any interest. Otherwise, to my Internet friends here (if any are still hanging about), happy trails!

Best wishes in your journey.  Having gone through it with Mormonism I understand it is a painful journey. But there is happiness on the other side.  And you will see the world and others in a much more positive and healthy way.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

And you will see the world and others in a much more positive and healthy way.

Is this guaranteed though?  Isn’t it possible their reasoning takes them to a more negative view of life?  Know of any studies that show one way or the other?

Added:  looking for answer to own question and came across an article that might spur some conversation:

https://theconversation.com/why-atheists-are-not-as-rational-as-some-like-to-think-103563

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Is this guaranteed though?  Isn’t it possible their reasoning takes them to a more negative view of life?  Know of any studies that show one way or the other?

Added:  looking for answer to own question and came across an article that might spur some conversation:

https://theconversation.com/why-atheists-are-not-as-rational-as-some-like-to-think-103563

 

I wouldn't say it's guaranteed. Very few things in life are. I suspect some people are happier without religion, as others are happier with it. 

[Tacenda]

I'm glad to say goodbye to a satan figure. Not to a God/Divine though. But believe in an inner core that is a great driver in life if you stay in tune.

[juliann]

11 hours ago, cksalmon said:

Long-time board participants may remember me as a (mostly) level-headed Evangelical Christian of the Calvinist variety who started studying Mormonism (as a cult) while at a (Southern Baptist) seminary. This farewell post is mostly for them. Others are free to move on to something more interesting. 

Farewell, you say? 

Yes, I think so. I mean, I haven't posted in many, many moons. And since that time, I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), so there's really just no reason for me to "correct" or convert you fine Mormon folks and/or stand up against Mormon attacks on my cherished theological beliefs with the most righteous indignation allowable by law. 

I think that's a win-win scenario for all concerned. 😁

You know what's interesting, though? When I now consider Mormonism vs EV Christianity vs RCC, etc., purely in terms of manmade mythologies, I actually think Mormonism is the better story (in general, that is; there are parts I don't like at all, too). It very nearly pained me to write that given the emotional muscle memory associated with this discussion board. Ha. 

AMA if there's any interest. Otherwise, to my Internet friends here (if any are still hanging about), happy trails!

 Good to see you again! Like the others, I'd love to hear more. 

[pogi]

12 hours ago, cksalmon said:

Farewell, you say? 

Yes, I think so. I mean, I haven't posted in many, many moons. And since that time, I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), so there's really just no reason for me to "correct" or convert you fine Mormon folks and/or stand up against Mormon attacks on my cherished theological beliefs with the most righteous indignation allowable by law. 

I wish you well in your new journey!  

Please know that you don't need to say farewell just because you no longer feel an urge to correct or convert us Mormon folk.  There are many who participate on this board who are no longer theistic and are welcome participants.  I quite enjoy their company and perspective, and like others, would love to hear yours. 

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, cksalmon said:

................. Evangelical Christian of the Calvinist variety who started studying Mormonism (as a cult) while at a (Southern Baptist) seminary. ...............

.............I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), ....................

Is your story similar to that of Bart Ehrman, or at least influenced by him?

12 hours ago, cksalmon said:

You know what's interesting, though? When I now consider Mormonism vs EV Christianity vs RCC, etc., purely in terms of manmade mythologies, I actually think Mormonism is the better story (in general, that is; there are parts I don't like at all, too). .........................

There are a number of prominent scholars who have said as much, for a variety of reasons.  Eduard Meyer, Ernst Benz, Harold Bloom, etc.  Admiration from nonbelievers . . .

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

Is your story similar to that of Bart Ehrman, or at least influenced by him?

There are a number of prominent scholars who have said as much, for a variety of reasons.  Eduard Meyer, Ernst Benz, Harold Bloom, etc.  Admiration from nonbelievers . . .

I would agree with that. The mainstream Christian God seems a little capricious and unjust to me. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

...................  Having gone through it with Mormonism I understand it is a painful journey. But there is happiness on the other side.  And you will see the world and others in a much more positive and healthy way.

 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Is this guaranteed though?  Isn’t it possible their reasoning takes them to a more negative view of life?  Know of any studies that show one way or the other?

Added:  looking for answer to own question and came across an article that might spur some conversation:

https://theconversation.com/why-atheists-are-not-as-rational-as-some-like-to-think-103563

Within the animal kingdom, humans are a special case.  They are the apex predators, with that predation too frequently directed at fellow humans.  Chimps have some of those same tendencies, but are not as clever as humans in bringing themselves to potential extinction -- despite builtin sociobiological urges to cooperation and altruism.  Human technical skill makes such predation too efficient, and self-reflection makes almost any sort of murderous rationale to be justified in furtherance of rampant narcissism.

Historians of religion and culture often assert that humans have developed some very sophisticated etiologies to explain all phenomena and to forestall that apex predator self-destructive tendency.  The Bible is merely one such effort to gather human wisdom and systematize it so as to provide survival value for the human family.  Modern man is now jettisoning that magnificent heritage, believing passionately that it is utterly silly to kow tow to a manmade god, or any other sort of human creation, in favor of sterile science.  As though he is merely replacing one god with another.

Modern man considers himself "the measure of all things," and that untethered hubris is his nemesis.  We saw where that led in the 20th century, in which the most advanced ideologies of both Left and Right engaged in the reckless murder of millions.  Jordan Peterson repeatedly points this out to the enthusiasts of our "brave new world."  It is an existential warning which they tend to reject out of hand.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

... https://theconversation.com/why-atheists-are-not-as-rational-as-some-like-to-think-103563

 

'Cause they're, ummm, human, just as the rest of us are???

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

When you disagreed with the teachings of our Lord through his prophets you were wrong in your views because you should not have disagreed with our Lord then just as you should not disagree with him now.  So not much of an overall change, I think.

When you are ready to believe in our Lord and his teachings then he will be ready for you to follow him and his teachings.  Until then you will be going on in whatever way you believe is right even if it is not the way our Lord would like you to go.

I hope you will find the right way to go, and the sooner the better.

Oh, do shut up.

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

When you disagreed with the teachings of our Lord through his prophets you were wrong in your views because you should not have disagreed with our Lord then just as you should not disagree with him now.  So not much of an overall change, I think.

When you are ready to believe in our Lord and his teachings then he will be ready for you to follow him and his teachings.  Until then you will be going on in whatever way you believe is right even if it is not the way our Lord would like you to go.

I hope you will find the right way to go, and the sooner the better.

And you wonder why your accounts keep getting banned?

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

When you disagreed with the teachings of our Lord through his prophets you were wrong in your views because you should not have disagreed with our Lord then just as you should not disagree with him now.  So not much of an overall change, I think.

When you are ready to believe in our Lord and his teachings then he will be ready for you to follow him and his teachings.  Until then you will be going on in whatever way you believe is right even if it is not the way our Lord would like you to go.

I hope you will find the right way to go, and the sooner the better.

Does this make 13 accounts now, Ahab?

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Yeah, I still wonder about that.  Apparently because some people disagree with what I say, seems to me, or maybe because they don't like to see how I speak up in support of our Lord's teachings.

The problem isn't your speaking up for the Lord. But you knew that.