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Long-time board participants may remember me as a (mostly) level-headed Evangelical Christian of the Calvinist variety who started studying Mormonism (as a cult) while at a (Southern Baptist) seminary. This farewell post is mostly for them. Others are free to move on to something more interesting.
Farewell, you say?
Yes, I think so. I mean, I haven't posted in many, many moons. And since that time, I've left my faith-based worldview behind. I no longer consider myself a Christian in any sense of that word (or even a theist, for that matter), so there's really just no reason for me to "correct" or convert you fine Mormon folks and/or stand up against Mormon attacks on my cherished theological beliefs with the most righteous indignation allowable by law.
I think that's a win-win scenario for all concerned. 😁
You know what's interesting, though? When I now consider Mormonism vs EV Christianity vs RCC, etc., purely in terms of manmade mythologies, I actually think Mormonism is the better story (in general, that is; there are parts I don't like at all, too). It very nearly pained me to write that given the emotional muscle memory associated with this discussion board. Ha.
AMA if there's any interest. Otherwise, to my Internet friends here (if any are still hanging about), happy trails!
Why do members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe the priesthood keys and presiding priesthood were taken from the earth?
1) Not all apostles were killed, John an apostle who held Apostolic keys was granted "apower over bdeath, that I may live and bring souls unto thee. " according to D&Cov7 Joseph and Oliver use the seer stone and receive a vision of a parchment of John and given power to translate it that they may obtain an answer to their question. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/7?lang=eng
2) Paul teaches immortal church that the gospel of Christ Jesus would be upon the earth "throughout all ages, world without end." Ephesians 3:21
3) The letter of 1Clement (first century dated 80 - 140AD) says the Apostles themselves instructed the bishops and ordained them with power to call and ordain other bishops to retain succession and authority. 1Clem 44:1 And our Apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife over the name of the bishop's office. 1Clem 44:2 For this cause therefore, having received complete foreknowledge, they appointed the aforesaid persons, and afterwards they provided a continuance, that if these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed to their ministration.
4) Brigham Young teaches robust quorum succession in the event of catastrophe (see Wilford Woodruff journal July 28, 1860) that if either the first presidency or the twelve or both are killed the seventy can recreate the church and can re-organize the higher quorums - which matches the letter of Clement.
Quote: "The President of the Church holds the keys of the sealing powers & his Council act in Concert with him [in] all things. Should the Presidency die The Twelve Could organize another Presidency & should the Presidency & Twelve all be slain the Seventies being Equal in power & Authority to the Twelve or first Presidency Could organize both Quorums. He also taught that a high priest is a primal seed and can re-organize the church if all authorities are dead (nuclear holocaust, alien uprising, voyages to new planets etc). Quote: "The High Priest Could organize the Church in all its parts if all other Authorities were dead for they have the Melchizedek Priesthood out of which grow all of the Higher offices of the Church."
5) John Taylor teaches of revelations received during the time of "darkness" which coincides with Ephesians 3
John Taylor, 7-Sept 1873 "Say some—'Oh, we are so enlightened and intelligent now. In former ages, when the people were degraded and in darkness, it was necessary that he should communicate intelligence to the human family; but we live in the blaze of Gospel day, in an age of light and intelligence.' Perhaps we do; I rather doubt it. I have a great many misgivings about the intelligence that men boast so much of in this enlightened day. There were men in those dark ages who could commune with God, and who, by the power of faith, could draw aside the curtain of eternity and gaze upon the invisible world. There were men who could tell the destiny of the human family, and the events which would transpire throughout every subsequent period of time until the final winding-up scene. There were men who could gaze upon the face of God, have the ministering of angels, and unfold the future destinies of the world. If those were dark ages I pray God to give me a little darkness, and deliver me from the light and intelligence that prevail in our day;"
Just to be clear I believe in restoration - these points arose as I studied the matter more closely when I served as a ward mission leader and the update of Preach my gospel released.
Y'all know that lesson with the cups?
12 Disciples of Jesus - pics of them on one side - pics of the current 12 Apostles on the other side.
Then you build the cups up into a pyramid / tower and the cups have labels on them like priesthood, tithing, scriptures, fasting, Temple, etc.
Been wonderin' about the Sanhedrin - read somewhere that they were the literal/genealogical descendants of the quorum of the 70 from the time of Moses
Was the Sanherin apostate?
Seems like they practiced what they were supposed to / followed the rules they had in place.
If they got the Levitical priesthood from their elders (did they?), as did John the Baptist who followed his own path, clearly not the Sanhedrin's path.
Seems like if the Sanhedrin didnt have authority , then how did John?
Good morning all: I have been absent from the board for a year and a half or so. I have a question with which I hope someone here can help me. I am wrapping up a book on Anglo influence on Mexican religion and have been reading a 1968 book by Ernest Lee Tuveson a former UC Berkeley professor on the history of the United States as a millenial kingdom. To my surprise I got to around page 150 and he has a whole section on LDS millenial beliefs as epitomizing the concept of the US and the future reign of Christ. In this section he talks about the LDS concept of the apostasy. He quotes the Pratt brothers in a way that is difficult to follow. Apparently in his writings, one of the brothers used the term "a terrible silence" to refer to the apostasy. I think that is a terrific phrase; one I would like to use. Dr. Tuveson doesn't provide a source for the quote. I am wondering if any of you gurus might have heard this term before and can help me with a citation? Is there a source where the writings of the Pratts could be searched to find that term? I trust you all are doing well and that maybe someone has a way I might be able to track down this phrase?
For a long time. I have had a problem with the doctern that Joseph Smith had seen God because of 2 scriptures in the bible. John 1:18,and ex 33:20. Today by accident, well, I think it was by accident. I found Gen.32:30 where Jacob said he saw the face of God and lived. Does anyone know of other places in the bible that someone saw God directly and lived