Replacing Mormonism with . . . ?

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

If we do not have a common reference then why are we talking about it?

I don't expect a common reference. Each person must determine what is best for them. For some people, the question is what brings them closer to God. For others, it is what enlarges their soul or makes them more moral or helps them serve their neighbors. The idea that there is some universal definition of "what is best for you" is foreign to me.

[bluebell]

I think the answer to the 'where would we go' cannot be divorced from the second part of the statement (thou has the words of eternal life) without losing the context of Ballard's talk.

Most people who leave the LDS church seem to no longer believe that eternal life is even a thing, or, if they still believe it's a thing and they still seek it, they no longer believe they need to do or believe anything specific to get it. They just believe they'll get it regardless because they are a good person and God loves them and they agree that Jesus died for them (etc.).  So, when most people leave, they aren't looking for a way to receive eternal life.  They aren't even trying to get there anymore.  That means that, for people with that mindset, there are lots of options for where to go. 

Like the cheshire cat says in Alice in Wonderland, if you aren't trying to get to a specific place "it really doesn't matter" what road you take.   If a person isn't trying to receive eternal life, then there are millions of places to happily go when leaving the church.  And each destination is pretty equal regardless of where it is.

To really confront Elder Ballard's point, a person would need to still be searching for a way to receive eternal life when they left the church.  From my perspective, those are the only people who can really answer Elder Ballard's question as he asked it.

[stemelbow]

In December of last year, wife and I looked at each other and after many years of trying to make Mormonism work said, "well, that's been tough.  Looks like we're done".  Wife hasn't looked back at all, to her credit.  I show up from time to time because curiosities have gotten the best of me.  I enjoy going and saying hi to all those who have bad mouthed us for the past few.  I still like 'em (so does my wife, for the most part, but she's happiest not sitting in the pews amongst them).  Anyway, about the middle of December we asked ourselves the question of "whatever will we do without Church taking up our time?"  it was probably the last time we asked ourselves that.  There's plenty to do and get involved in.  JKwilliams summed nicely "Anywhere that works better for you than Mormonism. "

 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

In December of last year, wife and I looked at each other and after many years of trying to make Mormonism work said, "well, that's been tough.  Looks like we're done".  Wife hasn't looked back at all, to her credit.  I show up from time to time because curiosities have gotten the best of me.  I enjoy going and saying hi to all those who have bad mouthed us for the past few.  I still like 'em (so does my wife, for the most part, but she's happiest not sitting in the pews amongst them).  Anyway, about the middle of December we asked ourselves the question of "whatever will we do without Church taking up our time?"  it was probably the last time we asked ourselves that.  There's plenty to do and get involved in.  JKwilliams summed nicely "Anywhere that works better for you than Mormonism. "

I'm glad you and your wife are happy. 

[SouthernMo]

All around, Mormonism is a pretty good religion; I think it’s the best for me right now. But, if you’re looking for one aspect of a religion more than others, I offer the following list from my experience that other faiths do well that Mormons could emulate:

Sense of Community and History: Judaism

Focus on Jesus Christ: Evangelicals

Knowledge of the Bible: Baptists

Skill/Training of leaders: Methodism

Embrace Extreme & Unique Ideas: Scientology

Conservative & Moral Code: Islam

Finding Peace: Buddhism

Authority: Catholics (Mormons are arguably tied here)

Faith (despite worldly data): Christian Scientists

Answers to Eschatological Questions: Mormons or Scientologists

Missionary Work: Jehovah’s Witnesses

Service: Mormons (by a long shot - it’s been measured)

Love & Acceptance: Baha’i

I’m sure there are other great faiths out there, some of which may outperform others I’ve listed in one aspect or another.  This is just my anecdotal list of a few things that are important to me, and the faiths I admire that embody the virtue more than others.

[cinepro]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

To really confront Elder Ballard's point, a person would need to still be searching for a way to receive eternal life when they left the church.  From my perspective, those are the only people who can really answer Elder Ballard's question as he asked it.

There are plenty of LDS who leave for other Churches.  But the trend does seem to be towards agnosticism or atheism and a lack of religious attendance.  But I suspect they still do what other non-Mormons do to find meaning in life.  They serve others, donate money to worthy causes, and so on.

It's even possible that they find more fulfillment from those immediate forms of service, compared to the more abstract service the Church focuses on where we do Temple and genealogy work and find joy in imagining our dead ancestors being blessed.

[Coop]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

During the October 2016 General Conference, Elder Ballard made the following remarks:

Elder Ballard was, to some extent, asking these as rhetorical questions.  They were meant to provoke introspection within the individual.

However, as this is a message board, I would like to re-frame Elder Ballard's questions and use them to initiate an actual discussion.  This message board has participants who are frustrated/irritated with the Church, or who are estranged from it in some material sense, or who have actually left it.  I would like to hear from these folks. 

I will clarify here that this is not intended to be an attempt to dissuade you from your current position.  Rather, I would like to better understand your perspective and plans regarding a community that can replace Mormonism and is "better" than Mormonism.  One that meets or exceeds your standards and expectations.  Or is this an unfair/unreasonable inquiry?  Mormonism is a fairly high-demand community.  In stepping back from it, is there really a need to replace it with any comparable system of social interaction?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I’m not so sure that Elder Ballard was speaking to those who were actually considering leaving the Church.

 

Instead I believe that his intended audience was those who are faithful.  And I believe this because every Sunday I hear variations of this argument repeated over and over again.  I can imagine these faithful members thinking something like, “Only an idiot would leave the Church!” or “Where else can I go to go to find the words of eternal life?”  Anyone who comes to this conclusion then pats themselves on the back because they aren’t idiots who are considering leaving the Church.  It is a simple little exercise meant to buoy up the faithful.

 

What I find missing in these discussions is the part personality plays in the decision to either leave the Church or stay.  Before retiring I spent a good portion of my career administering personality tests and providing feedback.  And I can say with a high degree of confidence that those who stay with organizations for the long haul tend to be those who score high on a scale that measures the psychological need for love and belonging, all things being equal.  I would bet dollars to donuts that the same thing holds for those who stay or those who leave the Church.

 

All the best,

Bob

[CA Steve]

Until one steps out of the box it is impossible to see the opportunities that lie outside the box.

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, cinepro said:

There are plenty of LDS who leave for other Churches. 

I agree.  That's why i said many and not all.

Quote

 

But the trend does seem to be towards agnosticism or atheism and a lack of religious attendance.  But I suspect they still do what other non-Mormons do to find meaning in life.  They serve others, donate money to worthy causes, and so on.

 

I agree with this as well.  I did not mean to imply that a life without a desire for eternal life would be without meaning.  It can still have meaning, just not the same meaning as it previously had.

Quote

It's even possible that they find more fulfillment from those immediate forms of service, compared to the more abstract service the Church focuses on where we do Temple and genealogy work and find joy in imagining our dead ancestors being blessed.

May be.  People can find meaning in all sorts of things.  And I would guess that a life focused on what a person wants to do rather than outside expectations of what they should do would feel more fulfilling in some ways.

[katherine the great]

Maybe its kind of like leaving a marriage. Where does one go? If they like the idea of being married they may choose a new marriage partner.  If marriage itself made them feel too claustrophobic or dependent or expensive they may decide to stay single. If they find that they miss their partner and are unhappy without them, they may seek a reconciliation.

[katherine the great]

30 minutes ago, Coop said:

What I find missing in these discussions is the part personality plays in the decision to either leave the Church or stay.  Before retiring I spent a good portion of my career administering personality tests and providing feedback.  And I can say with a high degree of confidence that those who stay with organizations for the long haul tend to be those who score high on a scale that measures the psychological need for love and belonging, all things being equal.  I would bet dollars to donuts that the same thing holds for those who stay or those who leave the Church.

I see all kinds of personality types in the church! However, I have noticed that the majority of leadership does tend towards a particular type.

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

In short, there are many places people can go and many things they can do. Elder Ballard's talk, though I'm sure it was well intentioned, shows that he doesn't comprehend the possibility of a happy life outside of the church, yet billions have lives outside. His Good Ship Zion analogy proves that he sees the ship as the only option, otherwise people will perish and be miserable, but it doesn't appear to me that the world works that way. So people will continue to love their families, enjoy activities and socialization. They'll just do it in a way that the church isn't the epicenter of their entire lives.

I don't think Elder Ballard believes that one can not be happy outside the church at least for a  time. Surely there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who are happy and not LDS.  I think he is viewing it out of a more eternal perspective of what one should expect from his position.  It follows the idea of what profit it a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul.  Surely those that gain the whole world are very happy.  But as they say "All good things must come to an end" and when one dies, where are they at now?  The same idea can be found in Lehi dream.  Only those who hold to the iron rod, eat of the tree of life and remain are the ones that will be happy in the end. 

The real advantages of being LDS don't kick in until crossing the veil into the Spirit World where a great sifting out occurs.  Those people who have left the church and have passed away understand where Ballard is coming from.  If they had a chance to appear to those thinking of leaving the church today they would plead with them not to do it.  It is not worth it as whatever gain they got has now be wasted.  I think if we could see in the the spirit world for just 2 minutes, we would see how serious an issue this really is.

[Okrahomer]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

All around, Mormonism is a pretty good religion; I think it’s the best for me right now. But, if you’re looking for one aspect of a religion more than others, I offer the following list from my experience that other faiths do well that Mormons could emulate:

Sense of Community and History: Judaism

Focus on Jesus Christ: Evangelicals

Knowledge of the Bible: Baptists

Skill/Training of leaders: Methodism

Embrace Extreme & Unique Ideas: Scientology

Conservative & Moral Code: Islam

Finding Peace: Buddhism

Authority: Catholics (Mormons are arguably tied here)

Faith (despite worldly data): Christian Scientists

Answers to Eschatological Questions: Mormons or Scientologists

Missionary Work: Jehovah’s Witnesses

Service: Mormons (by a long shot - it’s been measured)

Love & Acceptance: Baha’i

I’m sure there are other great faiths out there, some of which may outperform others I’ve listed in one aspect or another.  This is just my anecdotal list of a few things that are important to me, and the faiths I admire that embody the virtue more than others.

Sometimes I feel "Holy Envy." as well.  You might enjoy this article/talk.

[strappinglad]

To what extent does the parable of the prodigal son apply here? I do NOT wish to imply that those who leave the church waste their lives in riotous living. They may, however,  have given up  at least part of their inheritance. If covenants exist , then I suspect the Lord takes them seriously.

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

During the October 2016 General Conference, Elder Ballard made the following remarks:

Elder Ballard was, to some extent, asking these as rhetorical questions.  They were meant to provoke introspection within the individual.

However, as this is a message board, I would like to re-frame Elder Ballard's questions and use them to initiate an actual discussion.  This message board has participants who are frustrated/irritated with the Church, or who are estranged from it in some material sense, or who have actually left it.  I would like to hear from these folks. 

I will clarify here that this is not intended to be an attempt to dissuade you from your current position.  Rather, I would like to better understand your perspective and plans regarding a community that can replace Mormonism and is "better" than Mormonism.  One that meets or exceeds your standards and expectations.  Or is this an unfair/unreasonable inquiry?  Mormonism is a fairly high-demand community.  In stepping back from it, is there really a need to replace it with any comparable system of social interaction?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Pretty close to perfect as it is, thank you.  No alternative exists.   Tweaks here and there? sure- but nothing like a "replacement"

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

To what extent does the parable of the prodigal son apply here? I do NOT wish to imply that those who leave the church waste their lives in riotous living. They may, however,  have given up  at least part of their inheritance. If covenants exist , then I suspect the Lord takes them seriously.

You are looking at this from a faithful perspective.  People who leave the church usually don't hold a faithful perspective.  As for me, I feel I have lost no inheritance.  When I left the church, I gave up things that just were not working for me.   Now this is my journey, and I am only speaking for myself.  I no longer have to deal with all the cog dis that I was experiencing trying to make the doctrine and history work.  I no longer have to deal with meeting schedule that left me bored to tears.  I no longer have to be ashamed exclusionary policies I don't agree with.

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I see all kinds of personality types in the church! However, I have noticed that the majority of leadership does tend towards a particular type.

since the subject been broached, I read an article in the Hawwwwvid University business publication and the article was about why do incompetent men get leadership jobs. One of the points was the way you get a job isn't what is needed to do a job well. If you back stab, gossip and steal your way to the top those aren't qualities to do and engage in, if you land the big job! hahahhahha! 

[Hamba Tuhan]

I definitely have some 'holy envy' of my own, from a variety of religions and faith groups ... and their practices!

7 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Knowledge of the Bible: Baptists

I find this one interesting considering that American Saints have been shown to outstrip other Christians when it comes to knowledge of both the Bible and Christianity as a faith system.

Quote

Finding Peace: Buddhism

Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience. My first housemate here (way back when I was a student) was a devout Buddhist who had a library of texts and several shrines in our home and who spent almost the entire weekend at the local temple. I've never before or since met anyone who worried as much as he did. Because everything that happened in his life was, in his mind, a direct response to something he'd done or said, he was an anxious, nervous wreck all the time. After our house was broken into and all our stuff taken, he couldn't sleep for months afterwards. (I felt the same way the first night; then I got a blessing from my home teacher, and my peace was restored.) I once told him that if my faith gave me as much peace as his gave him, I'd be looking for a new faith.

Years later, I went several times with our Sister missionaries to visit another devout Buddhist. He was similar. He lived a life of extreme caution and sought complete detachment from the world, which meant that he wasn't close to either family or friends. I remember his telling us about a family he knew whose son had been born with some kind of defect in his body and how they were wracking their memories to determine what they had done wrong to call down this act of karma. What an awful way to live!

Quote

Missionary Work: Jehovah’s Witnesses

We used to be visited regularly by Witnesses, but I haven't seen them at my door in years. (The last one to visit was an elderly gentleman who told me point-blank that God was going to destroy me for eternity. I told him that wasn't a very attractive message...) I saw a rumour online that JW leadership have stated/suggested that the time for proselyting is over. I haven't been able to verify. Has anyone heard anything similar? I do see some witnesses with their literature trolley in the city each day, but they just park it in the middle of the pedestrian mall and then sit far away from it and eat ice cream and chat with each other.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[strappinglad]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

People who leave the church usually don't hold a faithful perspective

Whether or not you BELIEVE covenants exist with God , matters not if they actually do exist.

If Hichens was right, he won't know it and neither will we. If he was wrong, " oops " may not cut it. Some philosopher once said that belief was the more rational logical position. Debatable I'm sure.

[california boy]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I don't think Elder Ballard believes that one can not be happy outside the church at least for a  time. Surely there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who are happy and not LDS.  I think he is viewing it out of a more eternal perspective of what one should expect from his position.  It follows the idea of what profit it a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul.  Surely those that gain the whole world are very happy.  But as they say "All good things must come to an end" and when one dies, where are they at now?  The same idea can be found in Lehi dream.  Only those who hold to the iron rod, eat of the tree of life and remain are the ones that will be happy in the end. 

The real advantages of being LDS don't kick in until crossing the veil into the Spirit World where a great sifting out occurs.  Those people who have left the church and have passed away understand where Ballard is coming from.  If they had a chance to appear to those thinking of leaving the church today they would plead with them not to do it.  It is not worth it as whatever gain they got has now be wasted.  I think if we could see in the the spirit world for just 2 minutes, we would see how serious an issue this really is.

You are working under the assumption that the Mormon Church has some kind of idea what will happen in the afterlife.  I think that most people who leave the church no longer think the church has any divine knowledge at all on this issue or any other.  

Even leaders of the Mormon Church can not tell you for sure what actually happens to someone who leaves the church.  Are they damned for eternity?  Can they correct their decision?  Since temple work can still be done for someone who has left the church, then what exactly is their fate?

For me, it is quite irrelevant since what is offered in the Celestial Kingdom by the Mormon Church is not something that I am interested in obtaining if being married to a woman for eternity is the only option.  This isn't really the leverage that you think it might be for someone who is no longer a believer. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The real advantages of being LDS don't kick in until crossing the veil into the Spirit World where a great sifting out occurs.

I respectfully disagree. The blessings of the Restored Gospel are available to faithful Saints, right here, right now. Whatever may come after will just be a natural extension/continuation of all the happiness, joy, peace, knowledge, etc. that are already the hallmarks of fully embracing all the Church has to offer.

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

For me, it is quite irrelevant since what is offered in the Celestial Kingdom by the Mormon Church is not something that I am interested in ...

And this really is the point. We don't all want the same thing. Those who truly love the things of God will move heaven and earth to obtain them. Those who don't, won't ... and don't even have to. It's a beautiful, just plan!

Edited August 7, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, smac97 said:

............................................ This message board has participants who are frustrated/irritated with the Church, or who are estranged from it in some material sense, or who have actually left it.  I would like to hear from these folks. 

I will clarify here that this is not intended to be an attempt to dissuade you from your current position.  Rather, I would like to better understand your perspective and plans regarding a community that can replace Mormonism and is "better" than Mormonism.  One that meets or exceeds your standards and expectations.  Or is this an unfair/unreasonable inquiry?  Mormonism is a fairly high-demand community.  In stepping back from it, is there really a need to replace it with any comparable system of social interaction?.................

According to Eric Hoffer, most people need some sort of purpose in life buttressed by belief and passion.  Perhaps modern Mormon culture is far too easy, maybe even boring.  If someone wants to find a more engaging, challenging, and fulfilling culture, I might suggest conversion to orthodox Judaism, or to find a colony of Hutterite Brethren somewhere in North America and join it.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

.................................

The real advantages of being LDS don't kick in until crossing the veil into the Spirit World where a great sifting out occurs.  ...................................

Some LDS theologians believe that there will be no great sifting, but rather that nearly all will end up in the Celestial Kingdom, and that Mormonism is actually quite universalist in purview.

[Thinking]

It became necessary to tell my parents about my disbelief when my younger brother got engaged and planned to be married in the temple. I decided to tell them and my brother asap so that my absence from the ceremony wouldn't be a surprise and a distraction. During the resulting dialogue, there were a lot of questions, one of which was, "What church are you attending now?"

Quote

If you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, where will you go? What will you do?

These questions assume that when we lose our faith, we feel some kind of emptiness that needs to be filled.

What the faithful LDS need to understand is that what is classified as a faith crisis is no crisis. For many of us it is an awakening.

Another statement/question that I have heard too many times is...

Quote

No other church promises as much as the LDS Church. Why would you want to join another church whose promised rewards are less?

Why would I stay in a church that I don't believe can deliver on the elevated promises?

IMO, questions like the ones posed by Elder Ballard are designed to distract a person from pursuing legitimate answers to difficult questions.