the gospel of change?

[Duncan]

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life?  I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

[JLHPROF]

That all depends on how you define good.

If you believe God or Christ to be the ultimate examples of good then no other organization even comes close to the improvements made by following the gospel.  It's the only way to truly become like them.

[Meerkat]

55 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life? 

Well, I suppose if a person never sinned, they wouldn't feel that desperate need for a Savior.  Having been a sinner, I can tell you I am not the same person I was when the Savior came into my life.  My burden of sorrow and care was lifted.  Sadness and confusion replaced with faith, understanding, gratitude and purpose.

Whereas one may find a sense of purpose in the Kiwanis club, I doubt that service would bring relief from sin.  The Savior does.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Meerkat

[california boy]

47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That all depends on how you define good.

If you believe God or Christ to be the ultimate examples of good then no other organization even comes close to the improvements made by following the gospel.  It's the only way to truly become like them.

How can you make this statement?  You don't have to be a member of the church to believe or follow the teachings of Christ. What does the church offer that is any different?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life?  I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

Yes of course.

If it's not, it's your fault.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Hamba Tuhan]

I've never experienced or witnessed anything as fundamentally and thoroughly life-changing as the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored through Joseph Smith and his successors.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life?  I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

I can say that a miraculous conversion changed my dad’s life, and as a result mine. Not that he was a very bad man before, but he had his problems. After his conversion and for the rest of his life, he was a new and a very good man. Joining the Retail Clerks Union did not make him a better man. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

How can you make this statement?  You don't have to be a member of the church to believe or follow the teachings of Christ. What does the church offer that is any different?

I didn't read his statement as indicating it was something one only felt in the LDS church.  He was referring to the Gospel (the Good News) in general.

It is the case, or so I believe, that only the LDS church has the authority from God to efficaciously administer saving ordinances like baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost, but it is not the case that other Christians cannot feel the Savior's love and experience the feeling of forgiveness and receive an uplift thereby.  Of course they do.

[CMZ]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life?  I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

Yes, the point of the gospel is to help people improve and reach their full potential. You know, the whole "becoming, not just doing" thing. The problem is that a lot of people don't even grasp that such a thing is possible. They either think you don't have a spirit, or if they believe you have a spirit they think it's this unknowable, distant entity that has little effect on you but that may finally be unveiled once you die. People in this latter category tend to see commandments as oddball rules that don't make sense but that you better follow so that God can give you a gift at some unspecified time and you either end up with a bunch of gifts in heaven or you don't. But each person basically is their spirit and their spirit can progress or it can regress. It actually can get better or worse. Hearkening to the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the best way to help your spirit progress. As Stargazer pointed out even the basic principles of the Gospel alone will help a person but the ordinances will help even more.

[JAHS]

 

7 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

The gospel gives us the best incentives for living a good life and becoming better, namely, eternal life with God in heaven and the reuniting of our families in the next life. 

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I didn't read his statement as indicating it was something one only felt in the LDS church.  He was referring to the Gospel (the Good News) in general.

It is the case, or so I believe, that only the LDS church has the authority from God to efficaciously administer saving ordinances like baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost, but it is not the case that other Christians cannot feel the Savior's love and experience the feeling of forgiveness and receive an uplift thereby.  Of course they do.

Of course I understand the claim of authority the church holds.  But even that makes no difference on the road to becoming more Christ-like since the work will be done for all who have lived.  

[Glenn101]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life?  I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

If the Gospel cause a "mighty change" in a person's heart, yes. I have known people that have turned their lives around by accepting Christ (not just LDS). I would hesitate to make any type of blanket statement though as to just who and what percentage has that change wrought in them since I am not authorized to judge anyone else and have no way of obtaining such information.

Glenn

[SouthernMo]

The church organization for me is helpful in my life in many, many ways.  I generally enjoy the LDS church in my life. But there’s one organization that has helped me change more than the church.

For clarity, I need to think about the gospel of Jesus Christ as separate from the church organization.  That is not to say that they are mutually exclusive. Heavens, no!

My life has emerged from an addiction that was pretty close to destroying my family, and causing me unhappiness.

But I can’t claim that the LDS church or even the ordinances have helped me the most with this massive change/recovery.

I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after being baptized. I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after receiving the Melchizedek priesthood. I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after taking out my endowments. I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after being sealed to my family in the temple.

I changed my life before (in preparation for) those ordinances. Those ordinances themselves didn’t make me one bit of a better man.

So, living the principles that Christ taught has made me better. But, I can’t say from personal experience that it was the church organization or its ordinances that drove the biggest change in my life.

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

The church organization for me is helpful in my life in many, many ways.  I generally enjoy the LDS church in my life. But there’s one organization that has helped me change more than the church.

For clarity, I need to think about the gospel of Jesus Christ as separate from the church organization.  That is not to say that they are mutually exclusive. Heavens, no!

My life has emerged from an addiction that was pretty close to destroying my family, and causing me unhappiness.

But I can’t claim that the LDS church or even the ordinances have helped me the most with this massive change/recovery.

I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after being baptized. I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after receiving the Melchizedek priesthood. I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after taking out my endowments. I didn’t feel any more desire to change or be better after being sealed to my family in the temple.

I changed my life before (in preparation for) those ordinances. Those ordinances themselves didn’t make me one bit of a better man.

So, living the principles that Christ taught has made me better. But, I can’t say from personal experience that it was the church organization or its ordinances that drove the biggest change in my life.

Wonderful, that you put Christ above the church. Sometimes people think the church is the gospel, but it's not. The gospel is Christ, only Him. ETA: But I understand that the church's requirements for temple attendance sure can get someone in ship shape! I'm happy for you, I know how hard it is to quit an addiction. Luckily, my addiction is the laptop and diet dr. pepper, bad as it is, I'm glad I don't have some addictions that some in my family have. Glad to have you on the board!!

Edited June 8, 2018 by Tacenda

[Maidservant]

I think one of the things that is amazing about the energy of Christ (power, gospel, person, paradigm, etc) is the capacity of CHRIST to walk far into the darkness, maintaining the light (CHRIST-ness) and not losing light in the darkness--and walking far into that darkness for the purpose of bringing up those souls bound in darkness, back 'out' to a more peaceful, lightful, free place.  On the basis that those souls are precious a priori, and worth finding, rescuing, teaching, loving, etc.

Obviously there is much love in the world that goes by other names (although I, myself, might also note them as being an aspect of CHRIST--my label preference): but as I've contemplated it for myself, thinking on Buddha, Allah/Muhammad, Judaism, and more, I do feel that each type of energy/paradigm has its place and gives its gift(s) and they can all work together for the blessing and raising of souls; but I think a planet devoid of CHRIST energy and ideas would be missing something very important, and that is the depth and height of possible transformation--from the lowest low to the highest high.  And there are some times and places in our lives and on the planet where only CHRIST energy "will do"--i.e. has the power of deliverance.

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Wonderful, that you put Christ above the church. Sometimes people think the church is the gospel, but it's not. The gospel is Christ, only Him. ETA: But I understand that the church's requirements for temple attendance sure can get someone in ship shape! I'm happy for you, I know how hard it is to quit an addiction. Luckily, my addiction is the laptop and diet dr. pepper, bad as it is, I'm glad I don't have some addictions that some in my family have. Glad to have you on the board!!

Fortunately the Church itself teaches that Christ is more important than the Church.

[CMZ]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

Of course I understand the claim of authority the church holds.  But even that makes no difference on the road to becoming more Christ-like since the work will be done for all who have lived.  

Each individual still has to go through their own development process.

[CMZ]

Quote

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”

https://jesuschrist.lds.org/his-life-and-teachings/articles/who-is-jesus-christ?lang=eng

 

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, Duncan said:

Change or being born again seems to me to be the point of the gospel, but is the gospel actually changing lives more better or lastingly vs. joining the Kiwanis club, AA, or your Dr. telling you to lay off with the sweets or some life altering event changing your life?  I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations?

The difference is between the degree to which we can be changed by the gospel and any change we can attain without it.  Which begs the question, I think, of what changes are possible both with and without the gospel.

So, what is the gospel?  I define it simply as what will bring us to stand before our Father in heaven to be judged by our own works, whether or not we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. 

That's the least it will do.  From there it will be a matter of whether or not and to what degree we became like our Lord and Savior, based on whether or not or to what degree we followed his example.

 

[mrmarklin]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

How can you make this statement?  You don't have to be a member of the church to believe or follow the teachings of Christ. What does the church offer that is any different?

Saving ordinances, and the opportunity to bind oneself to one's family forever.

[Duncan]

How do we account for people changing attitudes, behaviours who aren't members of the Church?

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wonderful, that you put Christ above the church. Sometimes people think the church is the gospel, but it's not. The gospel is Christ, only Him. 

Which means what exactly?  Whenever someone pulls the "only Christ" card they never seem able to define what that means in any concrete terms.

The "Church" (ie the gospel taught in the Church) IS Christ's plan and path.  He is only Christ because he followed the plan.

Creating a separation that doesn't exist between Christ and the Church is counter-productive.

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

How do we account for people changing attitudes, behaviours who aren't members of the Church?

Influences of both good and evil are all around us and each of us chooses which thoughts/attitudes/ behaviours we like best.

Consider that while also understanding that everything good is associated with God and everything evil is associated with Satan and you'll arrive at the idea that we follow one or the other in each and every detail of our own life.

Some people simply follow God/Christ more or less than some other people, and those who follow him best are the best kind of people.. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by Ahab

[california boy]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

Each individual still has to go through their own development process.

I agree. But for 99.9 percent of Gods children that happens outside of the Mormon Church. It is such a minuscule number, it can’t be that important to have that development process occur within the Church 

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

I agree. But for 99.9 percent of Gods children that happens outside of the Mormon Church. It is such a minuscule number, it can’t be that important to have that development process occur within the Church 

If that 99.9% developing outside of Mormonism never make it to the waters of baptism their development is stunted and while they may be progressing they will always be running behind.

They may spend years diligently progressing through the courses, learning, and grades of high school, but without graduation they cannot move on to university.