Thinking Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: God is good and just. And not a respecter of persons. So given the seeming inequality of life, we really only have two reasonable explanations: Either some merit from premortality carries forward or some future event will require an equalization (or both). God is perfectly just but the ultimate follower of law. Nobody gets to follow an alternative path into heaven, no matter how much he loves us. Or we take multiple tests. Yes I know this hints at reincarnation. Isn't it fun to bring up something that is so not LDS? 3
changed Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 8:09 AM, JAHS said: The gospel gives us the best incentives for living a good life and becoming better, namely, eternal life with God in heaven and the reuniting of our families in the next life. You only get to be reunited with your families if you are not a convert... you only get to be reunited with your family if they somehow convert too...
The Nehor Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 9 hours ago, CMZ said: No, not really. Brigham Young said that the majority of God's children will accept the gospel. Is that exaltation 'accept' or the Telestial every knee shall bow by the end of the Millenium 'accept'? 2
JAHS Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 39 minutes ago, changed said: You only get to be reunited with your families if you are not a convert... you only get to be reunited with your family if they somehow convert too... A lot of born in the church members (non converts)also will not be reunited with their families if they are not faithful. But converts can have their deceased relatives be baptized in the temple and if accepted in the next life they can also achieve exaltation and be reunited with their families.
The Nehor Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 7 hours ago, Eek! said: If God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons, then nobody gets cheated. And likewise nobody gets a freebie (such as, die before age 8 and you get to skip having to walk the walk). Don't worry about what the latest doctrinal fad is. The Good Shepherd never gives up on his lost sheep. Recall the story of the Prodigal Son. This son of a loving Father thought he had squandered his Father's treasure. But instead, HE was his Father's treasure, and his mistakes had not diminished his value in the slightest. Die before age 8 and you get the easier Millenium mortality. I assume that there is some fairness based on premortal differences and possibly a couple of idiots who could have opted out of hard mode opted in for various reasons. I recall the terrifying parable of the sheep and the goats. I don't think the prodigal son one trumps it somehow.
Tacenda Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 Maybe this is off topic, but thought it could work. Just saw this on a FB post. https://mormonhub.com/blog/life/latter-day-saints/church-changing/ I actually think it's a mistake to stop VT'g and HT'g. I really don't think anything is going to get done without the structure. But maybe the members can do it on their own.
strappinglad Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 I'm not sure how far one can stretch the Prodigal Son parable , but , if you recall, there was a conversation between the father and the obedient son . That son was miffed because he never got the feast etc. The father says to relax because all that he has now belongs to the obedient son. Remember the prodigal son took his portion and blew it. I wonder what his portion is now? I assume it is not a zero sum situation but ...
JLHPROF Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Is that exaltation 'accept' or the Telestial every knee shall bow by the end of the Millenium 'accept'? Exactly.
The Nehor Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 46 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Maybe this is off topic, but thought it could work. Just saw this on a FB post. https://mormonhub.com/blog/life/latter-day-saints/church-changing/ I actually think it's a mistake to stop VT'g and HT'g. I really don't think anything is going to get done without the structure. But maybe the members can do it on their own. I got my first ministering interview last Sunday. I find it to be incredibly liberating. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, The Nehor said: Die before age 8 and you get the easier Millenium mortality. I assume that there is some fairness based on premortal differences and possibly a couple of idiots who could have opted out of hard mode opted in for various reasons. Agreed 100%. We all have to follow the same path to progress in the end. Some got a head start arriving here based on premortality (like Christ for instance). And some will get a head start in the next life based on actions here. (D&C 130 again). Edited June 10, 2018 by JLHPROF
The Nehor Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Exactly. Do you know which one it is because I genuinely do not know.
CMZ Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 10 hours ago, strappinglad said: I note that one is not baptized into the Church. The baptismal prayer says nothing about the church. The confirmation, a separate ordinance, brings one into the Church. In Christ's day, John baptized Him and the HG descended upon Him after. When Alma baptized, I wonder about the confirmation. I don't think it confirmed folks into the CoJCoLDS . There is the Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. The Two Paths, pick one. In a sense you are baptized into the Church because it is a companion ordinance to confirmation and sometimes when people say "baptism" they are grouping the two ordinances together.
CMZ Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Is that exaltation 'accept' or the Telestial every knee shall bow by the end of the Millenium 'accept'? I'd lean toward exaltation 'accept' although this could lead to a big discussion. I do believe that Mormon theology is far more merciful and inclusive than people realize.
CMZ Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Maybe this is off topic, but thought it could work. Just saw this on a FB post. https://mormonhub.com/blog/life/latter-day-saints/church-changing/ I actually think it's a mistake to stop VT'g and HT'g. I really don't think anything is going to get done without the structure. But maybe the members can do it on their own. People can still minister in the same way they did VT and HT if they want and if it works for those whom they are assigned. Even when VT and HT were the thing the Church taught that V and H teachers were supposed to render individualized service to those whom they were assigned and that, yes, you were to try to visit each assignee each month and share a message with them but that the service shouldn't stop there and that a lot of individual customization should take place. 1
CMZ Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 10 hours ago, california boy said: Can I be your servant for eternity? Don't count yourself out.
JLHPROF Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Do you know which one it is because I genuinely do not know. I'd have to know exactly which Brigham quote is being referenced to say which he was referring to. But you are right they are two separate definitions of accepting the gospel.
The Nehor Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 11 hours ago, california boy said: Can I be your servant for eternity? Sure, do you want to be the one who builds nebulas or the one who designs horrific looking deep-sea life? Those are the only two openings I have at the moment. 1
Thinking Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 45 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Some got a head star... When I read this I immediately thought of the Sneetches. 2
Eek! Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: I recall the terrifying parable of the sheep and the goats. Glad you brought that up! We know from D&C 19:6-12 that "endless punishment" and "eternal punishment" and words to that effect are deliberately harsh language used to make an impression on a hard-headed audience, and don't really mean what they seem to at first glance. These punishments are not really "eternal". This principle applies to the punishment mentioned in that parable. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but that's all it is, just the beginning. Down the road we find perfect love, which casts out all fear, even the fear from that scary parable about the sheep and goats, which I will come back to in a minute. What is the First and Great Commandment? To love God. Would God give us a commandment that we cannot possibly keep? Of course not. Can you love that which you fear? Well maybe kinda sorta. Okay, let me rephrase: Can you love with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind, that which you fear? Of course not. So, the only possible way that we can keep the First and Great commandment is, if we do not fear God. And the only way we can legitimately not fear God is if we truly have no reason to fear Him. I do not know of any religion that teaches we have no reason to fear God, and I understand if you would prefer to "play it safe" and be terrified of Him, but imo you need not be, not for your own soul, nor for anyone else's. Perfect love casts out how many kinds of fear? All of them. So what then was the point of that scary parable about the sheep and goats? It is summed up in these words: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Of course nobody really believes that either, but maybe we should. (Imo the "punishment" the goats get is reincarnation, while the reward the sheep get is they graduate to the next level.) Edited June 10, 2018 by Eek!
california boy Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Sure, do you want to be the one who builds nebulas or the one who designs horrific looking deep-sea life? Those are the only two openings I have at the moment. I would LOVE that position. Seriously it sounds more awesome than creating billions of spirit children that I have to worry about and be responsible for. One question. Does my uniform have to be all white? It seems kind of, well, boring. I am thinking of something in gold Lame. And I would like it tailored. Not some drapey thing that looks like you are still deciding if you want to get out of bed. 1
california boy Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 2 hours ago, CMZ said: Don't count yourself out. I am going to give you my honest answer to your post. I used to feel like God was so unfair for making me Gay. But then I became angry at Him for not allowing me to change no matter how obedient I was, how hard I dedicated my life to him, how much I tried to magnify the callings that were given to me. When I was excommunicated from the church, I felt like the experience was a departure of love, and only kindness from those that made that judgement. I knew I had not given them any other choice. It turns out that leaving the church for me was the best thing that could have happened. I began to rely on God instead of church leaders to guide me. I began to believe more in God than men. When the church did the whole Prop 8 thing, it was like a sharp line was drawn in the. sand. The door became permanently shut for me ever going down that path again. But what came out of it all was something beautiful. I realize that being gay was the greatest gift God could give me. It has made me who I am. The church police towards Gays in the Celestial Kingdom permanently shut that door as well. No gays allowed. You must become straight. You must be eternally married to a woman. That kind of clinched the deal for me. I have no desire to be in the Celestial Kingdom any longer. It is just not the place I should be. And I now know that I can find great happiness outside of the path that you and others are on. It is not that I have counted myself out. It is that is not where God wants me. And I trust God. There are other glories for me. 1
Paiute Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, california boy said: I am going to give you my honest answer to your post. I used to feel like God was so unfair for making me Gay. But then I became angry at Him for not allowing me to change no matter how obedient I was, how hard I dedicated my life to him, how much I tried to magnify the callings that were given to me. When I was excommunicated from the church, I felt like the experience was a departure of love, and only kindness from those that made that judgement. I knew I had not given them any other choice. It turns out that leaving the church for me was the best thing that could have happened. I began to rely on God instead of church leaders to guide me. I began to believe more in God than men. When the church did the whole Prop 8 thing, it was like a sharp line was drawn in the. sand. The door became permanently shut for me ever going down that path again. But what came out of it all was something beautiful. I realize that being gay was the greatest gift God could give me. It has made me who I am. The church police towards Gays in the Celestial Kingdom permanently shut that door as well. No gays allowed. You must become straight. You must be eternally married to a woman. That kind of clinched the deal for me. I have no desire to be in the Celestial Kingdom any longer. It is just not the place I should be. And I now know that I can find great happiness outside of the path that you and others are on. It is not that I have counted myself out. It is that is not where God wants me. And I trust God. There are other glories for me. A person isn't excommunicated from the Church for merely being gay. Yet your honest answer makes it to appear. Edited June 10, 2018 by Paiute
california boy Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 6 minutes ago, Paiute said: A person isn't excommunicated from the Church for merely being gay. Yet your honest answer makes it to appear. Yes. A person is not excommunicated just for being gay. Like I said, I left them no choice. My happiness and relationship with God had to come outside of the church paradigm.
CMZ Posted June 10, 2018 Posted June 10, 2018 7 hours ago, california boy said: When I was excommunicated from the church, I felt like the experience was a departure of love, and only kindness from those that made that judgement. I knew I had not given them any other choice. It turns out that leaving the church for me was the best thing that could have happened. I began to rely on God instead of church leaders to guide me. I began to believe more in God than men. This is a good example of people in Church leadership positions who don't have all the understanding they should have causing problems for impressionable people with even less understanding. This is not the only problem that has occurred in the Church by different people thinking that Church "leaders" (and I put that in quotes not to ridicule them but because in the restored Church who is and who is not a leader is much blurrier than in other churches and is always fluctuating and rotating) stand in the way of God.
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