JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 59 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: The subject of god being fair and just is the position used in the former missionary discussions to explain the need for baptisms and ordinances for the dead. God wouldn’t be fair if he let all those people who didn’t have a chance to join the church die and not have a chance to be baptized. I understand your point, but why would God let everyone have a chance to accept the gospel on the one hand, but on the other, have some arbitrary ‘deadline’ for repentance? Just is not the same as "fair" is usually applied - meaning the same, equal. God will be perfectly "fair" and "just". That doesn't mean everyone gets the same trials, the same callings, or the same amount of time before and after death to work towards their final judgement. When the earth is celestialized, we either will be able to abide with Celestial bodies or we won't. After that D&C 76:112 would seem to apply. So yes, a time limit. I believe in eternal progression so I still believe that non-Celestial beings may one day in the distant eternities be able to be celestialized but by then those who start with Celestial glory and their kingdom will have moved on ahead. Just as those who accept more here will be ahead of those who don't. D&C 130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. 19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: I can say that a miraculous conversion changed my dad’s life, and as a result mine. Not that he was a very bad man before, but he had his problems. After his conversion and for the rest of his life, he was a new and a very good man. Joining the Retail Clerks Union did not make him a better man. I also had a miraculous conversion This stuff is real 1
strappinglad Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 Some political types today insist that " fairness " means equality of outcome not equality of opportunity. I think we are under similar thinking if we insist that all will want to be in the Celestial Kingdom. Agency is a top priority for God. We are told in the scriptures that the Spirit will not always strive with man. We are also told that people reach a ' ripeness of iniquity ' .Apparently there is a point of no return sometime, if not now in this life, then at some point in the future. Why are we all not concert pianists? 1
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Yes, there is a time limit. The end of the Millennium. That's why they call it the "final judgement". D&C 76:112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end So anyone who does not join the church in this life is just not going to have enough time to rectify it in the1000 years of the millennium? This is a new twist to the whole concept of doing work for the dead. Why bother? You seem to be sticking with the idea that being a member in this life is essential to your eternal salvation and that only .1% of God's children will be lucky enough too have the time needed to repent and come to Christ. Does everyone else agree with this? Only baptized Mormons will qualify for the Celestial Kingdom? The rest will run out of time before the final judgement? 1
The Nehor Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 40 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Some political types today insist that " fairness " means equality of outcome not equality of opportunity. I think we are under similar thinking if we insist that all will want to be in the Celestial Kingdom. Agency is a top priority for God. We are told in the scriptures that the Spirit will not always strive with man. We are also told that people reach a ' ripeness of iniquity ' .Apparently there is a point of no return sometime, if not now in this life, then at some point in the future. Why are we all not concert pianists? God does not seem to be big on "equality of opportunity" either.
The Nehor Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, california boy said: So anyone who does not join the church in this life is just not going to have enough time to rectify it in the1000 years of the millennium? This is a new twist to the whole concept of doing work for the dead. Why bother? You seem to be sticking with the idea that being a member in this life is essential to your eternal salvation and that only .1% of God's children will be lucky enough too have the time needed to repent and come to Christ. Does everyone else agree with this? Only baptized Mormons will qualify for the Celestial Kingdom? The rest will run out of time before the final judgement? While only baptized Mormons (or the equivalent in other dispensations) will inherit Celestial glory those who did not have the opportunity in mortality (and I have no idea what qualifies as opportunity and am not convinced there is a general answer) can receive the gospel. There is also a general exception in those who die before the age of accountability or who are never accountable. I hope that there are mercies and opportunities to come that will make the numbers of the fully redeemed exalted swell beyond our sometimes narrow expectations but I am not banking on it. My original backup plan to guarantee exaltation was the old doctrine that the children of exalted sealed couples got in automatically eventually but we have lately repudiated that doctrine so now I guess it is on me. Sometimes continuing revelation is a double-edged sword. 1
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 2 hours ago, SteveO said: I think we will be surprised at how little we will change in the resurrection. I’m beginning to suspect that the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms are the same place, but everyone there are at different levels. In other words, I think the damnation we could potentially face to be completely self imposed, and removed once we attain a level of self mastery. But like I said, I think we’d be very surprised at how little we change, and I see little reason why we would be willing to change at that time if we saw no reason to change now. I guess God only loves Mormons and only they will qualify to be with Him. Not sure why Mormons bother with the whole work for the dead. Seems kind of pointless to baptize some who will just not have enough time to learn what is necessary to return to God. If they had only joined a small church out of Utah that had an unbelievable story about Gold Plates that actually were never used to produce a book about a people who lived in the Americas that managed to not leave any trace of their existence. That blacks should be discriminated against for a hundred and fifty years. That Abraham himself wrote on papyrus that don't date back to the time of Abraham and appear to just be a commonly buried funeral book. Their eternity would have been so much different. OOPS.
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 19 minutes ago, The Nehor said: While only baptized Mormons (or the equivalent in other dispensations) will inherit Celestial glory those who did not have the opportunity in mortality (and I have no idea what qualifies as opportunity and am not convinced there is a general answer) can receive the gospel. There is also a general exception in those who die before the age of accountability or who are never accountable. I hope that there are mercies and opportunities to come that will make the numbers of the fully redeemed exalted swell beyond our sometimes narrow expectations but I am not banking on it. My original backup plan to guarantee exaltation was the old doctrine that the children of exalted sealed couples got in automatically eventually but we have lately repudiated that doctrine so now I guess it is on me. Sometimes continuing revelation is a double-edged sword. Do you realize how many more little kids will be running around the Celestial Kingdom than Mormons? Sounds like the whole Plan of Salvation should have been built around killing children before they reach the age of 8. And all the sudden, I am thinking that with that many kids running things, maybe these other kingdoms are looking better than ever. And according to some who have posted on this thread, those that didn't join the church in this life are simply going to run out of time to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom whether they heard about the church or not. Mormon doctrine is getting more weird by each post. This might be the most important thread ever opened. Thanks Duncan. Edited June 9, 2018 by california boy 1
mfbukowski Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: Some political types today insist that " fairness " means equality of outcome not equality of opportunity. I think we are under similar thinking if we insist that all will want to be in the Celestial Kingdom. Agency is a top priority for God. We are told in the scriptures that the Spirit will not always strive with man. We are also told that people reach a ' ripeness of iniquity ' .Apparently there is a point of no return sometime, if not now in this life, then at some point in the future. Why are we all not concert pianists? Because you are just plain not good enough (Couldn't resist)
Hamba Tuhan Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 19 hours ago, SouthernMo said: So, living the principles that Christ taught has made me better. But, I can’t say from personal experience that it was the church organization or its ordinances that drove the biggest change in my life. Interesting. In my case, the ordinances have been heaven-sent blessings that have fundamentally altered me and my desires as I have partaken of them again and again. 3
The Nehor Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 8 hours ago, california boy said: Do you realize how many more little kids will be running around the Celestial Kingdom than Mormons? Sounds like the whole Plan of Salvation should have been built around killing children before they reach the age of 8. And all the sudden, I am thinking that with that many kids running things, maybe these other kingdoms are looking better than ever. And according to some who have posted on this thread, those that didn't join the church in this life are simply going to run out of time to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom whether they heard about the church or not. Mormon doctrine is getting more weird by each post. This might be the most important thread ever opened. Thanks Duncan. Well, all those kids have to be raised in the Millenium. Part of the reason it takes so long so they will be adults by the time people are exalted. Not sure how people are going to run out of time. Have never heard that one. A thousand years is pretty long. 3
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Well, all those kids have to be raised in the Millenium. Part of the reason it takes so long so they will be adults by the time people are exalted. Not sure how people are going to run out of time. Have never heard that one. A thousand years is pretty long. I tend to agree I never heard that before either. 1000 years sounds a lot longer than 80
strappinglad Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 The straw men are popping up all over. We don't know how long it takes to come to Christ. When Christ was resurrected we have recorded that many resurrected with Him. They must have been ready to be resurrected and have been judged and received the proper body. I agree that at times it appears that Mormons are straightening deck chairs , but how many Christians were there in the world 200 years after Christ? 2000 years , and Christians in all their varieties only make up about 25% of the population. 2
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 10 hours ago, california boy said: Does everyone else agree with this? Only baptized Mormons will qualify for the Celestial Kingdom? The rest will run out of time before the final judgement? No, not really. Brigham Young said that the majority of God's children will accept the gospel. 1
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 10 hours ago, california boy said: Mormon doctrine is getting more weird by each post. This might be the most important thread ever opened. Thanks Duncan. There's Mormon doctrine and there's some Mormon's understanding of Mormon doctrine. They are not always the same thing. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: I tend to agree I never heard that before either. 1000 years sounds a lot longer than 80 You are misrepresenting what I said, and I don't appreciate it. Scriptures are clear.
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 54 minutes ago, strappinglad said: The straw men are popping up all over. We don't know how long it takes to come to Christ. When Christ was resurrected we have recorded that many resurrected with Him. They must have been ready to be resurrected and have been judged and received the proper body. I agree that at times it appears that Mormons are straightening deck chairs , but how many Christians were there in the world 200 years after Christ? 2000 years , and Christians in all their varieties only make up about 25% of the population. I agree completely. Anyone that knows what is going to happen to 99.9% of the world is whistling in the wind. And if the whole Plan of Salvation was designed to allow .1% of God's children to return back to him, well, it seems like a pretty lame plan. The only obvious conclusion one could possibly draw is that it is not necessary to join a small quirky church out of Utah to return back to God. 1
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You are misrepresenting what I said, and I don't appreciate it. Scriptures are clear. well by all means, CLARIFY. Because what you have said so far makes no sense to me. Tell me why it is important to join the Church.
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 5 minutes ago, california boy said: well by all means, CLARIFY. Because what you have said so far makes no sense to me. Tell me why it is important to join the Church. Are you just waiting for the work to be done for you? Quote We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, CMZ said: Are you just waiting for the work to be done for you? Not really. I am gay. There will be no gays in the Celestial Kingdom. I don't really want to spend eternity with a woman. So my options are much more limited. I was asking the question in a much more general sense. Trying to figure out why it is important for anyone to join the church. Edited June 9, 2018 by california boy
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, california boy said: Not really. I am gay. There will be no gays in the Celestial Kingdom. That statement could produce a lot of discussion. You only need baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is the greatest gift you can receive in this life and one of the biggest reasons to join the Church) to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. 1
strappinglad Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 I note that one is not baptized into the Church. The baptismal prayer says nothing about the church. The confirmation, a separate ordinance, brings one into the Church. In Christ's day, John baptized Him and the HG descended upon Him after. When Alma baptized, I wonder about the confirmation. I don't think it confirmed folks into the CoJCoLDS . There is the Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. The Two Paths, pick one. 2
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, CMZ said: That statement could produce a lot of discussion. You only need baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost (which is the greatest gift you can receive in this life and one of the biggest reasons to join the Church) to qualify for the Celestial Kingdom. Can I be your servant for eternity?
Eek! Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: While only baptized Mormons (or the equivalent in other dispensations) will inherit Celestial glory those who did not have the opportunity in mortality (and I have no idea what qualifies as opportunity and am not convinced there is a general answer) can receive the gospel. There is also a general exception in those who die before the age of accountability or who are never accountable. If God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons, then nobody gets cheated. And likewise nobody gets a freebie (such as, die before age 8 and you get to skip having to walk the walk). 12 hours ago, The Nehor said: I hope that there are mercies and opportunities to come that will make the numbers of the fully redeemed exalted swell beyond our sometimes narrow expectations but I am not banking on it. My original backup plan to guarantee exaltation was the old doctrine that the children of exalted sealed couples got in automatically eventually but we have lately repudiated that doctrine so now I guess it is on me. Sometimes continuing revelation is a double-edged sword. Don't worry about what the latest doctrinal fad is. The Good Shepherd never gives up on his lost sheep. Recall the story of the Prodigal Son. This son of a loving Father thought he had squandered his Father's treasure. But instead, HE was his Father's treasure, and his mistakes had not diminished his value in the slightest. Edited June 9, 2018 by Eek! 1
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eek! said: If God is good and God is fair and God is no respecter of persons, then nobody gets cheated. And likewise nobody gets a freebie (such as, die before age 8 and you get to skip having to walk the walk). God is good and just. And not a respecter of persons. So given the seeming inequality of life, we really only have two reasonable explanations: Either some merit from premortality carries forward or some future event will require an equalization (or both). God is perfectly just but the ultimate follower of law. Nobody gets to follow an alternative path into heaven, no matter how much he loves us. Edited June 9, 2018 by JLHPROF 1
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