Ahab Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: If that 99.9% developing outside of Mormonism never make it to the waters of baptism their development is stunted and while they may be progressing they will always be running behind. They may spend years diligently progressing through the courses, learning, and grades of high school, but without graduation they cannot move on to university. Hah! Another opportunity to post one of my favorite talks regarding higher education. Higher education.doc Great talk. Great points. I miss hearing more from this guy.
The Nehor Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 If I am not better then I was without the gospel then I plan to insist on a refund. 1
cinepro Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 16 hours ago, Duncan said: I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations? I don't think President McKay was making an empirical claim. It would be like a gym advertising that they make "weak men strong and strong men stronger." Sure, the gym provides the tools to do that, but you have to actually go to the gym and follow a program. If someone signed up and was given a workout plan but then didn't follow that plan, whose fault is it if they don't get in shape? Likewise, some people don't need a gym to get into shape, just as there are good, moral people who don't need a church to tell them what to do. Looking at it that way, I would argue that the Church does offer a framework that will help some people become "good." I don't think it's a universal promise, but it works for some people. Edited June 8, 2018 by cinepro 3
Ahab Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 1 hour ago, cinepro said: I don't think President McKay was making an empirical claim. It would be like a gym advertising that they make "weak men strong and strong men stronger." Sure, the gym provides the tools to do that, but you have to actually go to the gym and follow a program. If someone signed up and was given a workout plan but then didn't follow that plan, whose fault is it if they don't get in shape? Likewise, some people don't need a gym to get into shape, just as there are good, moral people who don't need a church to tell them what to do. Looking at it that way, I would argue that the Church does offer a framework that will help some people become "good." I don't think it's a universal promise, but it works for some people. I think it's important to state that the Church will work to make us perfect as long as we are willing to go along with the program. ...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. - Ephesians 4:13 ... so if it doesn't work for someone then that someone did not work hard enough at following the program
cinepro Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Ahab said: ... so if it doesn't work for someone then that someone did not work hard enough at following the program Well, since the Church (and Christian) program is "be perfect", you can always say that if someone isn't perfect, they just didn't follow the program. Edited June 8, 2018 by cinepro
SouthernMo Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, Ahab said: so if it doesn't work for someone then that someone did not work hard enough at following the program I think I know what you mean, and I don’t doubt that there are many who could do more to take advantage of the atonement, but this could come across a little harsh in some situations. Imagine one struggling with same sex attraction, and who wishes he didn’t feel that way, but still does. Is your response that they just didn’t work hard or follow the program? Or what about me? I’m working hard to believe in certain things that I don’t. I struggle for years with certain doctrines or practices. Your response is that I haven’t worked hard enough or followed the program? Maybe I should read more scriptures, and do more ministry, and more, more, more? Again, I think I know what you mean, but if you want to reach some people like me who struggle, I think it’s best to avoid even the slightest appearance of blaming us for not doing enough. In my case, I’ve served hard and kept the commandments for years, and I still don’t feel like I’m where I should be. “Do more” and keep at it seems to be your best advice. 2
Ahab Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: I think I know what you mean, and I don’t doubt that there are many who could do more to take advantage of the atonement, but this could come across a little harsh in some situations. Imagine one struggling with same sex attraction, and who wishes he didn’t feel that way, but still does. Is your response that they just didn’t work hard or follow the program? No, my response is more like " It's okay to feel that members of your same sex are sexually attractive. We all are,, in God's eyes, and we should love everybody regardless of what sex they are. We're just not supposed to have sexual relations with anyone unless they are our opposite sex and we are married to them." And then we might talk some more about that if they had more questions they wanted to ask me about how I felt. 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: Or what about me? I’m working hard to believe in certain things that I don’t. I struggle for years with certain doctrines or practices. Your response is that I haven’t worked hard enough or followed the program? Maybe I should read more scriptures, and do more ministry, and more, more, more? Yeah, maybe, either more of something that you are already doing or something you haven't done yet. You're not supposed to make yourself believe something, though. That's not part of the program. You're just supposed to want to learn what God think and how he feels about things and you're supposed to try to communicate with God until he tells you and assures you of those things. Until then just be open to receiving answers and/or ideas from him, and keep asking him questions with a prayer in your heart whenever you pray. 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: Again, I think I know what you mean, but if you want to reach some people like me who struggle, I think it’s best to avoid even the slightest appearance of blaming us for not doing enough. In my case, I’ve served hard and kept the commandments for years, and I still don’t feel like I’m where I should be. “Do more” and keep at it seems to be your best advice. Yeah, well, with the understanding that for some things you do need God's help, and help from other people, too, maybe. You can do only what you can do, so when you need help from others, including God, you need to ask for that and keep asking until they help you. Beg if you have to. I do that, sometimes.
pogi Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Duncan said: I think it was Pres. McKay who said the point is to make bad men good and good men better but is that happening and is it better than joining other groups or associations? That isn't the only point of the church. As I recall we have a four-fold mission, not a one-fold mission. We don't have a monopoly on making bad men good and good men better, but we do have a pretty good system, from personal experience. Our mission of "perfecting" the saints will not happen in this life...but we do have a monopoly on that one. Edited June 8, 2018 by pogi 2
california boy Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 3 hours ago, JLHPROF said: If that 99.9% developing outside of Mormonism never make it to the waters of baptism their development is stunted and while they may be progressing they will always be running behind. They may spend years diligently progressing through the courses, learning, and grades of high school, but without graduation they cannot move on to university. We got eternity. Is there a rush?
Ahab Posted June 8, 2018 Posted June 8, 2018 31 minutes ago, california boy said: We got eternity. Is there a rush? Not if you don't care how long it may take you to achieve celestial glory. Q: where did california boy go? isn't he coming with us? A: eh, he said he didn't see any reason to rush. I suppose he may catch up to us someday, eventually.
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, california boy said: We got eternity. Is there a rush? We have eternity to progress. We don't have eternity to decide to be with our loved ones, our Savior, and our Father in Heaven. If you want to be held back in High School with a new group of classmates while your friends all graduate and move on to university and start their careers that's your agency. Edited June 9, 2018 by JLHPROF
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: We have eternity to progress. We don't have eternity to decide to be with our loved ones, our Savior, and our Father in Heaven. If you want to be held back in High School with a new group of classmates while your friends all graduate and move on to university and start their careers that's your agency. Not sure what you are talking about. Is there a time limit on when someone can be sealed together with their family? Do you think if you aren't a member of. the church in this life then you will run out of time in the next to do what is needed to achieve exaltation? How can it possibly make a difference in the eternities whether you are a member of the church in this life? I must not be getting your point, because it makes no sense at all if you are saying what I am thinking you mean.
california boy Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: Not if you don't care how long it may take you to achieve celestial glory. Q: where did california boy go? isn't he coming with us? A: eh, he said he didn't see any reason to rush. I suppose he may catch up to us someday, eventually. There is only .1% of God's children that have ever joined the church. And of those, who knows how many are actually working towards exaltation. What. Do you think you are all going to be super achievers and leave the rest of the 99.9% in the dust and we will never catch up? And what actually do you learn by being a member of the church that puts you so far ahead anyway? Just because you have your ordinance work done on earth while you were living? Is it so bad to have to wait for those ordinances until after you die? And if it does matter, then what is the church going to tell all those black families that were not allowed to do their ordinances while on earth. Tough break, you are never going to catch up with us super achievers? Edited June 9, 2018 by california boy 1
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 hour ago, california boy said: Not sure what you are talking about. Is there a time limit on when someone can be sealed together with their family? Do you think if you aren't a member of. the church in this life then you will run out of time in the next to do what is needed to achieve exaltation? How can it possibly make a difference in the eternities whether you are a member of the church in this life? Yes, there is a time limit. The end of the Millennium. That's why they call it the "final judgement". D&C 76:112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end
Thinking Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 9 hours ago, CMZ said: Fortunately the Church itself teaches that Christ is more important than the Church. CFR 1
SouthernMo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Yes, there is a time limit. The end of the Millennium. That's why they call it the "final judgement". D&C 76:112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end Yeah - I’m not sure I get your point, or understand the doctrine you’re teaching here. With that implication, are you saying that those who died thousands of years ago will have more time to change, progress, and repent? Those who are born at the end of the millennium who make some poor choices before the clock runs out are eternally ‘damned?’ Doesbt seem fair or just to me. Not the God I want to worship.
JLHPROF Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 1 minute ago, SouthernMo said: Yeah - I’m not sure I get your point, or understand the doctrine you’re teaching here. With that implication, are you saying that those who died thousands of years ago will have more time to change, progress, and repent? Those who are born at the end of the millennium who make some poor choices before the clock runs out are eternally ‘damned?’ Doesbt seem fair or just to me. Not the God I want to worship. "Not fair" is a silly argument. I get it from my 5 year old whenever they don't get what they want. I've said it before, equality is not sameness. We weren't equal in premortality, we aren't equal here, and we won't be equal there. Time to decide isn't as big an issue when the veil isn't in the way. Scripture also states that everyone will be required to accept Christ as Lord by that time.
SteveO Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, california boy said: We got eternity. Is there a rush? I think we will be surprised at how little we will change in the resurrection. I’m beginning to suspect that the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms are the same place, but everyone there are at different levels. In other words, I think the damnation we could potentially face to be completely self imposed, and removed once we attain a level of self mastery. But like I said, I think we’d be very surprised at how little we change, and I see little reason why we would be willing to change at that time if we saw no reason to change now. Edited June 9, 2018 by SteveO
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 8 minutes ago, Thinking said: CFR The information is widely available and visible to all those who have eyes to see. There is so much information in this regard that it is almost embarrassing to have to point it out. As a mere few examples: Quote Today, when I think about that miraculous experience, I feel grateful for the mayor’s wisdom and spirit of discernment. He knew that the key to understanding the Church is not to see it through the outward appearance of its buildings or even as a well-organized institution but through its millions of faithful members, who strive each day to follow the example of Jesus Christ. President Russell M. Nelson once likened the Church to a nice automobile. We all love it when our vehicle is clean and shiny. But the car’s purpose is not to stand out as an attractive machine; it is to move the people in the car.2 In the same manner, we, as members of the Church, appreciate having beautiful places of worship that are clean and well maintained, and we also enjoy having well-functioning programs. But these are merely support systems. Our sole aim is to invite each son and daughter of God to come unto Christ and to guide him or her along the covenant path. Nothing is more important. Our work is all about people and covenants. Isn’t it wonderful that the name given by revelation to the restored Church binds together the two most important elements in each gospel covenant? First is the name Jesus Christ. This Church belongs to Him, and His sanctifying Atonement and covenants are the only pathway to salvation and exaltation. President M. Russell Ballard taught, “What is most important in our Church responsibilities is not the statistics that are reported or the meetings that are held but whether or not individual people—ministered to one at a time just as the Savior did—have been lifted and encouraged and ultimately changed.” My dear brothers and sisters, are we active in the gospel, or are we merely busy in the Church? The key is to follow the example of the Savior in all things. If we do that, we will naturally focus on saving individuals rather than performing tasks and implementing programs.https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/it-is-all-about-people?lang=eng
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, Thinking said: CFR This whole talk:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/converted-to-his-gospel-through-his-church?lang=eng
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 18 minutes ago, Thinking said: CFR This quote that I mentioned earlier in this thread: Quote “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.”
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, Thinking said: CFR This whole talk:https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/why-the-church?lang=eng It is important to realize that Christ set up the Church and its efficacy stems from his Atonement. If some individual in the Church is too caught up in church programs that is not the fault of the Church.
Thinking Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 Thank you for the references. 9 hours ago, CMZ said: Fortunately the Church itself teaches that Christ is more important than the Church. If Christ is more important than the Church, can a person reject the Church and still be exalted? Quote President Russell M. Nelson once likened the Church to a nice automobile. We all love it when our vehicle is clean and shiny. But the car’s purpose is not to stand out as an attractive machine; it is to move the people in the car.2 In the same manner, we, as members of the Church, appreciate having beautiful places of worship that are clean and well maintained, and we also enjoy having well-functioning programs. But these are merely support systems. In other words, can a person ride in a different automobile and still be exalted?
SouthernMo Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 24 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: "Not fair" is a silly argument. I get it from my 5 year old whenever they don't get what they want. The subject of god being fair and just is the position used in the former missionary discussions to explain the need for baptisms and ordinances for the dead. God wouldn’t be fair if he let all those people who didn’t have a chance to join the church die and not have a chance to be baptized. I understand your point, but why would God let everyone have a chance to accept the gospel on the one hand, but on the other, have some arbitrary ‘deadline’ for repentance?
CMZ Posted June 9, 2018 Posted June 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, Thinking said: Thank you for the references. If Christ is more important than the Church, can a person reject the Church and still be exalted? In other words, can a person ride in a different automobile and still be exalted? They can be saved in the telestial or terrestrial kingdom.
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