God gives special attention and help to certain people

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

You seem to feel that those who tell 'God helped me find my keys' mock (even if unintentionally) those who never find their keys.   While you put across the emotional tone that mocks the childlike wonder of those who accept God in finding their keys.  Why do you want to take that away from others?  Why do you want to take that away from the child inside you?

I don't want to take away anything from others.  I want to explore these thoughts is all.  Is asking these questions taking something away from another? 

7 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

 Here's the problem with taking bit stories, because I'll bet every single one of those people who gave a little story about how they noticed God showing up (NOT 'how God showed up' but 'how they NOTICED God showing up', different proposals), knows exactly what it is like to feel/be abandoned by God.  Because every human being knows that.  So you are not acknowledging the whole picture.  They also likely have their stories about someone who died, someone who was violated, things they lost and will never get back.  I know I do (don't get me started).  They have their moments in the dark when they are screaming "God, where are you!?"  See it all, stemelbow, if you will.  No person is "all blessed" and other people "all forsaken".  Everyone is all of those, all together, sometimes smooshed together (like is it a blessing or a curse when your preemie newborn twins are in ICU for 4 weeks? it's a curse because it happened at all; a blessing because there is medical help, priesthood help; a curse because death is imminent; a blessing because you can feel your ancestors from the other side, and feel the tenderness for life; a curse because why does it take an experience like this to show us and my babies suffering). Life is wondrous AND terrible--and usually in the very same moment.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Are you saying it all balances out in the end and those who may not appear to get blessings from God will and do during this life?  So one may pray and find his keys, and another may pray and not find his keys.  But that's ok, because that means at another time the one who finds his keys will also have to suffer pain when a loved one dies, and yet the one who didn't find keys will get blessed at another time in some way to make up for it?  That's a pretty complicated view.  So what about one who lives a life full of suffering?  One who had lived in torment, and pain in servitude or imprisoned?  What if there is, by chance of the many billions on this earth, that never receives a special little blessing from God? 

 

[thesometimesaint]

Bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. Such is the nature of our fallen world. We can complain about it all we want but it won't change a damn thing.

Edited September 6, 2017 by thesometimesaint

[Thinking]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.

AKA Testimony Hold 'Em

"I'll see your lost keys and raise you a miraculous recovery..."

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.  The momentum started as a lady explained:

Missionary went up right after, as I recall:

The other missionary got up:

Ok. Whatever.  I really don't think God works this way, necessarily.  But ok.  I'll leave people to their assumptions.

I read this article yesterday

Was a member of the 12 assigned in advance to areas wherever tragedy has struck?  Or was this coincidence?  It feels far more likely that it's coincidence.  I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important. 

Thoughts?

Perspective is everything and you are pretty consistent in the choice of perspective.

First, the fact that some people thank God for little things, or acknowledge his hand in the simplest of blessings has little, if anything, to do with how God treats people.  The fact that a lady will say how good God is because she found her keys, or that the window was not locked, or that her neighbor came to her home just when she needed to talk to someone is simply the choice of this individual to acknowledge God for all she receives that is good, kind, or helpful.  Is that really a problem for you?  Why?

It seems you place yourself pretty highly to judge these people as being spiritual dimwits for choosing to acknowledge God in all things. You have made the assumption that such acknowledgements or attributing to God the blessings individuals receive is somehow prideful.  I guess that all has to do with one's perspective.

It is evident that God's people, or even those he loves, does NOT equate to being blessed with the "good" life at all times.  Few of God's servants have had pain free lives; actually it is quite the opposite.  God's people are often severely chastised and carry heavy burdens. 

My friend, you may never be a member of the Twelve, not because of your perception that you are so humble, but that you simply don't like God or think he actually has a hand in the lives of his children.

[california boy]

When someone tells me yet another lost key story, I always picture God in some important meeting that pertains to controlling the universe.  He is right in the middle of whatever he does, and then he pauses, and says, "sorry another pair of lost keys" then as he is just about to start again, another pause "sorry another pair of lost keys"  This goes on the whole time the meeting is suppose to be happening.  Finally God excuses Himself so that he can eternally find lost keys for all of those people who expect Him to keep track of their stuff.

[california boy]

35 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Perspective is everything and you are pretty consistent in the choice of perspective.

First, the fact that some people thank God for little things, or acknowledge his hand in the simplest of blessings has little, if anything, to do with how God treats people.  The fact that a lady will say how good God is because she found her keys, or that the window was not locked, or that her neighbor came to her home just when she needed to talk to someone is simply the choice of this individual to acknowledge God for all she receives that is good, kind, or helpful.  Is that really a problem for you?  Why?

It seems you place yourself pretty highly to judge these people as being spiritual dimwits for choosing to acknowledge God in all things. You have made the assumption that such acknowledgements or attributing to God the blessings individuals receive is somehow prideful.  I guess that all has to do with one's perspective.

It is evident that God's people, or even those he loves, does NOT equate to being blessed with the "good" life at all times.  Few of God's servants have had pain free lives; actually it is quite the opposite.  God's people are often severely chastised and carry heavy burdens. 

My friend, you may never be a member of the Twelve, not because of your perception that you are so humble, but that you simply don't like God or think he actually has a hand in the lives of his children.

That is a bit of a harsh judgement don't you think?

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I don't want to take away anything from others.  I want to explore these thoughts is all.

The same here. When has God shown you personal attention, and how special does that seem to you?

[ttribe]

I commented already on a similar topic involving the discussion of Virgin Mary statues in the Houston area (http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69474-virgin-mary-statue/?do=findComment&comment=1209751605).

The opening portion of that post still applies here for me: "I don't know anymore.  All I know is I had three life-or-death situations in my family where we prayed for different outcomes in each case and in each case our prayers were most certainly not answered; all three died and did so in very horrendous fashions."

I'll add this: The more examples I encounter of answered prayers attributed to trivial matters, the more I feel empty inside on this topic.  I have been unable to reconcile so many of these patterns as the years have worn on.

[Maidservant]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I don't want to take away anything from others.

I believe you.  It's just that you seemed to be rolling your eyes at your fellow humans in your OP, and that you already had an answer/conclusion (God plays favorites), not a question.  But maybe that is more my problem than yours that I saw it that way.

The question you pose is perhaps one angle of the deepest question and struggle all human beings have, and that is the nature and purpose of this wild ride we call Earth.

Are you saying it all balances out in the end and those who may not appear to get blessings from God will and do during this life?

I'm not saying it balances out in the end.  It's not a math problem.  And . . . there is no end.

I'm saying it is what it is.  We each choose how we see it and what we get out of it (whether reception of God, or some other receipt).

Nephi put it this way: " having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days."  (1 Ne 1:1)  I laughed out loud when I first noticed and really saw that scripture.

I'm saying we ALL know favor and affliction.  There is no way for you and I to keep account of the entire story of each person on the planet (starting with your testimony-bearing ward members), and what each of them considers to be blessings or curse in their life.  You can only make the choice of what you view for YOUR life.   The philosophy and faith you choose as you approach YOUR journey.

There is a story that is told in various formats, here is one version:

Once there was an old man who lived in a tiny village. Although poor, he was envied by all, because he owned a beautiful white horse. People offered fabulous prices for the horse, but the old man always refused. “This horse is a friend, not a possession,” he would respond.

One morning the horse was not in the stable. All the villagers said, “You old fool. We told you someone would steal that beautiful horse. You could at least have gotten the money. Now the horse is gone, and you’ve been cursed with misfortune.”

The old man responded, “Perhaps. All I know is that my horse is gone; the rest I do not know. Whether it be a curse or a blessing, I can’t say.”

After fifteen days the horse returned. He hadn’t been stolen; he had run away into the forest. Not only had he returned, he had brought a dozen wild horses back with him. Once again the village people gathered around the old man and said, “You were right – what we thought was a curse was a blessing. Please forgive us.” The old man responded, “Perhaps. Once again you’ve gone too far. How do you know if this is a blessing or a curse? Unless you can see the whole story, how can you judge?” But the people could only see the obvious. The old man now had twelve additional horses that could be broken and sold for a great deal of money.

The old man had a son, an only son. He began to break the wild horses. Unfortunately, after just a few days, he fell from a horse and broke both his legs. Once again the villagers gathered around the old man and said, “You were right. The wild horses were not a blessing; they were a curse. Your only son has broken his legs and now in your old age you have no one to help you. You are poorer than ever.” But the old man said,“Perhaps. Don’t go so far. Say only that my son broke his legs. We have only a fragment of the whole story.”

It so happened that a few weeks later the country went to war with a neighboring country. All the young men of the village were required to join the army. Only the son of the old man was excluded, because he had two broken legs. Once again the people gathered around, crying because there was little chance their sons would return. “You were right, old man.  Your son’s accident was a blessing.  Our sons are gone forever.”

Life and scriptures are a painted picture of the paradox of blessing and curse.  They are not on separate hands (blessing and curse).  They are all tied up together.  Keep in mind that Laman/Lemuel and Nephi had pretty much the exact same external experiences.  They both had the desert hardships (for example), they both received the promised land (for example).  (God never removed the gift of the promised land from Laman and Lemuel.)  Their internal experience about their circumstances was up to them.

So one may pray and find his keys, and another may pray and not find his keys. 

God is not a candy machine.  If one wants God and life to be all tacked to the correct buttons one should push to get what one wants and expects, then, yes, one will be sorely disappointed.

I actually tend to agree with you that it may not be wise to ascribe God to every little good thing that happens, and ascribe the devil to the opposite.  To me, that is a bit crazy-making.  So if that is your OP point, then I'm on board.  But I guess my challenge to you, is, what is it to you if someone else does it?  I have to listen to a lot of stuff at Sacrament Meeting and other meetings (actually I can't sit through Sunday School anymore because I can't abide what I hear there) that I no longer ascribe to, but I honor them for being human.  They don't have to be me, I don't have to be them.  We all have to make our conclusions about what is suffering and what is blessing, and about how to get the blessings FROM our suffering (our wrestle with the angel).

But that's ok, because that means at another time the one who finds his keys will also have to suffer pain when a loved one dies, and yet the one who didn't find keys will get blessed at another time in some way to make up for it?  That's a pretty complicated view. 

No one said anything about making up for anything. It's not a math problem.  You are the one who keeps saying things like this, not me (or the scriptures, as I read them).

But you don't think that life is full of ups AND downs, and neither invalidates the other?

So what about one who lives a life full of suffering? One who had lived in torment, and pain in servitude or imprisoned?    Like Nelson Mandela? Like Imaculee Ilibagiza? Like Bethany Hamilton? Like Jesus of Nazareth? Like Joseph Smith? Like Joseph in Egypt? Like anyone who has ever told a story of how they came out of hell and found their peace? (Include me in that one.  I'm pretty sure you'd have a beautiful story too.)  I trust that eventually everyone will have that story. 

I have a friend who is stuck in Indonesia as a refugee.  His life has been trauma from day one, with no end in sight.  It's hard to respect God while witnessing this person's lifetime.  I get it.  And yet this young man has said such mild things to me as, "I have learned patience by sitting in the jail cell."  And even I am like, "What?  You GOT something OUT OF THIS CRAP?"  And this same friend told me this week about his nephew that was born and named after him, and he was celebrating that moment and invited me to do it with him.  So yes, he is a PTSD refugee AND he got a beautiful nephew.  (Reminds me of Fun's song: Some Nights).

It's called being human.  It's called the crucifixion of Christ.  Being human IS the crucifixion of Christ, the binding of Isaac on the altar.

What if there is, by chance of the many billions on this earth, that never receives a special little blessing from God?  You can only know for yourself, whether or not you RECEIVED.  You'll make yourself crazy trying to imagine everyone else's story.  You can only trust that he remembers everyone, or trust that he forgot us all, or trust that he is a respecter of persons by some criteria, or trust that he a random pixie dust sprinkler.  Until you interview everyone, you have to make a guess out of those four of what you think is likely about what God would do.  There is a consequence to your soul of which trust you choose, of who YOU become by how you see things (not of who you have correctly determined 'God' to be, because we are all still learning that).

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Maidservant

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Perspective is everything and you are pretty consistent in the choice of perspective.

First, the fact that some people thank God for little things, or acknowledge his hand in the simplest of blessings has little, if anything, to do with how God treats people.  The fact that a lady will say how good God is because she found her keys, or that the window was not locked, or that her neighbor came to her home just when she needed to talk to someone is simply the choice of this individual to acknowledge God for all she receives that is good, kind, or helpful.  Is that really a problem for you?  Why?

I would continue to suggest it doesn't matter what I think.  If someone wants to attribute any old thing to God, fine by me.  It might as well be God since someone believes it.  But it certainly raises the question for some of us, it seems.  Why would God be so seemingly careless and arbitrary?  Not everyone who locks themselves out gets back in easily.     

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

It seems you place yourself pretty highly to judge these people as being spiritual dimwits for choosing to acknowledge God in all things.

I don't judge them as such. 

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

You have made the assumption that such acknowledgements or attributing to God the blessings individuals receive is somehow prideful.  I guess that all has to do with one's perspective.

How so?    

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

It is evident that God's people, or even those he loves, does NOT equate to being blessed with the "good" life at all times.  Few of God's servants have had pain free lives; actually it is quite the opposite.  God's people are often severely chastised and carry heavy burdens. 

ok.  Not sure that really addresses the issue, but ok. 

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

My friend, you may never be a member of the Twelve, not because of your perception that you are so humble, but that you simply don't like God or think he actually has a hand in the lives of his children.

Sounds good.  I figure I wouldn't for a couple of reasons.  One as I mentioned--I simply can't see myself pretending to be that important.  And I simply don't follow the rules enough in the Church to work my way up the latter.  Too many of the rules are arbitrary and useless.  Plus at this point its like a 1 in a couple of million chance, it seems.  It's really unlikely.  I'd wager going forward the push with continue to be more outside the US to make it to the top 15, so perhaps with that, my chances would even get smaller.  But even throwing out the chances business, I have little desire to work my way up. 

[Maidservant]

Those who inherit the "celestial kingdom" are those who overcome (D&C 76:60).

Thus, those who overcome are not those who have no hell.

(Which is no one, ever.)

They are those who have a huge dose of hell and found out what to do with it.

Thus, if a Heavenly Father wanted to give his children a chance to understand and inhabit the kind of life that he leads (often nominated as "the celestial kingdom"), then his best gift would be to give them hell.  THAT would be his best love.

And the way and knowledge of what to do with it, as well, of course.

[stemelbow]

25 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

I'm not saying it balances out in the end.  It's not a math problem.  And . . . there is no end.

I'm saying it is what it is.  We each choose how we see it and what we get out of it (whether reception of God, or some other receipt).

Nephi put it this way: " having seen many afflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days."  (1 Ne 1:1)  I laughed out loud when I first noticed and really saw that scripture.

I'm saying we ALL know favor and affliction.  There is no way for you and I to keep account of the entire story of each person on the planet (starting with your testimony-bearing ward members), and what each of them considers to be blessings or curse in their life.  You can only make the choice of what you view for YOUR life.   The philosophy and faith you choose as you approach YOUR journey.

Ok.  God intervenes because someone imagines He does.  There's no better way to view it, it seems.  It's as good as if He actually did intervene if someone says He did.  None of us would know so we might as well say He did it. 

Quote

Life and scriptures are a painted picture of the paradox of blessing and curse.  They are not on separate hands (blessing and curse).  They are all tied up together.  Keep in mind that Laman/Lemuel and Nephi had pretty much the exact same external experiences.  They both had the desert hardships (for example), they both received the promised land (for example).  (God never removed the gift of the promised land from Laman and Lemuel.)  Their internal experience about their circumstances was up to them.

We don't know this.  I mean on the surface it appears that way, but we have no idea what it was like to walk in any of their shoes, if they ever really were in existence of course.  We're quick to condemn those that are written about because someone wrote it.  But they are, if they ever were, long gone. 

Quote

God is not a candy machine.  If one wants God and life to be all tacked to the correct buttons one should push to get what one wants and expects, then, yes, one will be sorely disappointed.

That feels rather absolute.  I doubt you understand the experiences of everyone.  It could very well be that one is not disappointed and yet views life as trying to push the right buttons to get what one wants and expects. 

Quote

I actually tend to agree with you that it may not be wise to ascribe God to every little good thing that happens, and ascribe the devil to the opposite.  To me, that is a bit crazy-making.  So if that is your OP point, then I'm on board.  But I guess my challenge to you, is, what is it to you if someone else does it?  I have to listen to a lot of stuff at Sacrament Meeting and other meetings (actually I can't sit through Sunday School anymore because I can't abide what I hear there) that I no longer ascribe to, but I honor them for being human.  They don't have to be me, I don't have to be them.  We all have to make our conclusions about what is suffering and what is blessing, and about how to get the blessings FROM our suffering (our wrestle with the angel).

If someone tries to express to me their dealings with God then I am listening to understand.  If what they say brings up questions or concerns on my end, I feel it ok to ask and explore our thoughts.  I'm not sure what the problem here is.

Quote

No one said anything about making up for anything. It's not a math problem.  You are the one who keeps saying things like this, not me (or the scriptures, as I read them).

But you don't think that life is full of ups AND downs, and neither invalidates the other?

I didn't say anything like that.  So I'm not sure where you're headed.

Quote

Like Nelson Mandela? Like Imaculee Ilibagiza? Like Bethany Hamilton? Like Jesus of Nazareth? Like Joseph Smith? Like Joseph in Egypt? Like anyone who has ever told a story of how they came out of hell and found their peace? (Include me in that one.  I'm pretty sure you'd have a beautiful story too.)  I trust that eventually everyone will have that story. 

No.  I was alluding to the unnamed person who is lost to history.  The one who never found their peace at all. 

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.  The momentum started as a lady explained:

Missionary went up right after, as I recall:

The other missionary got up:

Ok. Whatever.  I really don't think God works this way, necessarily.  But ok.  I'll leave people to their assumptions.

I read this article yesterday

Was a member of the 12 assigned in advance to areas wherever tragedy has struck?  Or was this coincidence?  It feels far more likely that it's coincidence.  I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important. 

Thoughts?

And in the mean time every 15 seconds a child dies of disease and hunger:  http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22935692

Does god hear the prayers of these children or their parents?

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

He even answers the prayers of people who don’t pray. It seems.

I really think Prayer is a self-meditatory exercise that helps people accept what happens or has happened, but it doesn’t result in influencing God to do or not do something to intervene in a persons reality.

Not possible or logical.  Now if you want to go with prayers that are not vocal, or thought out, or prayers of the heart, messages to the universe or whatever then I do feel he answers those too. I even think he blesses people who do none of those things, but you can't actually answer a prayer if there was no prayer of any kind.  Just like I could never respond to you if you had never said anything in the first place.   

[hope_for_things]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.  The momentum started as a lady explained:

Missionary went up right after, as I recall:

The other missionary got up:

Ok. Whatever.  I really don't think God works this way, necessarily.  But ok.  I'll leave people to their assumptions.

I read this article yesterday

Was a member of the 12 assigned in advance to areas wherever tragedy has struck?  Or was this coincidence?  It feels far more likely that it's coincidence.  I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important. 

Thoughts?

All these are examples of how humans create narratives to explain the things in their life to align with their perspectives on life and religion.  Its a type of confirmation bias where people preference those coincidences that align with their paradigm for how things should work.  Some of these are harmless, while others are quite arrogant and offensive. 

If you think that God somehow prefers your house to the houses of others in your neighborhood, because you are Mormon, isn't this the kind of pride that the gospel is calling us to reject.  God is a respecter of persons all the sudden.  Prosperity gospel, hurrah!

Also, will the keys stories will never end.  God is pulling the strings on such mundane and trivial events in your everyday life?  What kind of deity would play these games?  Makes no sense to me.  

All that being said, I wouldn't make fun of these individuals or call them out in person.  If someone wants to think God is shallow like this, that is up to them, but this is not the kind of God that inspires me to be a better person or calls me to serve and uplift those around me.  

[Garden Girl]

I have a really good "lost item" story (my dad's partial dental plate) but since there has been so much mocking of such stories here, I'll simply tell of one of my personal experiences of answer to prayer...

Years ago there was a favorite family member (non-LDS) who was really struggling in their personal and career life... so much so that they began to drink rather heavily and was sinking into depression, to the point of just giving up... I was heartsick for this person, and though I was inactive at the time I prayed deeply for Heavenly Father to bless and help them.  Finally one day as the situation seemed to worsen,  I went into my bedroom and fell on my knees and cried out... Father, Father, help this dear person... As I continued to pray a feeling of complete peace filled me, and I heard the still, small voice... "All will be well."  That was it... All will be well.  And I knew beyond a doubt that it would be... Time passed...slowly, but slowly, small improvement seemed to happen... I prayed, Father, how long?  How long?  (Because I had faith in Heavenly Father and His answer, but time continued on...)  I noticed this person changing, becoming more hopeful, stronger, looking more positive toward options.  Finally one day... over a year having passed... a wonderful career opportunity became available and they had become strong enough to be able to go forward.  And from then on they enjoyed a wonderful career for a number of years until retirement.  Yes, indeed all was well...

What did I learn?  I learned that Heavenly Father hears and answers our prayers, and answers them in His own time, and in His own way... in ways that are best for us.  Ways that may be "different" than we might expect... I realized that had Heavenly Father answered my prayer earlier, this person was not prepared to receive the blessings and would have undoubtedly failed... but Heavenly Father blessed them with time for the person to grow stronger... and be successful...

GG

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important.

In my experience, one needn't be an apostle to be important enough to be used as an instrument in God's hands -- so often and so unmistakably that one really knows what is happening and therefore anticipates and even prays for it. I strongly suspect that this is something the Lord would wish for all His Saints.

'And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!'

[strappinglad]

Coincidence, serendipity, luck, intervention, whathaveyou. My limited experience with lost items and prayer is that the place to look is brought to my mind. My usual response is " how in the world did they get there " .

This link has some weird results. Careful, there is a bad written word for 10 seconds out of 10 minutes.

 

[Traela]

I honestly don't mind the lost key stories.  I saw them compared to letting a small child press the elevator buttons: extremely small and unimportant, but a big deal to the child.  If it makes them happy, more power to them.

What I could really do without are the stories about loved ones on their deathbeds, then the parent or spouse have the faith to "let them go" and then the patient miraculously recovers.  Tell me instead about the 39-year-old wife and mother with terminal cancer, who spends her final days making sure everyone around her will be ok.  The man who has lost two wives, one to cancer and one to Parkinson's.  The man who is terminally ill, but is still one of the most positive people you'll ever meet.  The widow with the energy of a woman half her age who takes care of everyone, including a handicapped daughter.  The parents whose little boy survived a bone marrow transplant, only to die of a freak, unrelated health problem.  Tell me about the people who didn't get the miracle, but still hold onto their faith.  

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, Traela said:

The parents whose little boy survived a bone marrow transplant, only to die of a freak, unrelated health problem.  Tell me about the people who didn't get the miracle, but still hold onto their faith.  

We have a recent-ish convert in our ward whose wife was successfully treated for cancer. On the day that she was to be released from hospital, she suffered a fatal heart attack. He had just been with her and had popped down to the cafe for a coffee when he was paged to come back to her room. She was already gone.

One of my favourite experiences was being in the sealing room with this faithful elderly brother as he was sealed to his wife by proxy.

He was still playing tennis twice a week at that point but shortly thereafter had a heart attack of his own. He's now a frail shell of a man but overflowing with love, goodness and faith. It doesn't feel like a proper Sunday to me till I get a shake from his now-creaky hand.

But I like all the miracles I've seen too!

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Gray said:

Apparently not, if I catch the meaning of the rain falls on the just and the unjust. I think Jesus' views was that special blessings (and punishments) would only be meted out at the end. As in, when the meek inherit the earth.

And yet Jesus only raised a few from the dead and not all in his path who died.  Same with healing, he healed many, but not all in the land, let alone the world.

[Kenngo1969]

If one of the purposes of this life is to learn to trust God, let us be in whatever circumstance we might find ourselves, then it wouldn't do for Him to dole out blessings as though He were Santa Claus, nor would it do for Him always to withhold them as though He were an arbitrary, crotchety old miser (something akin to, say, Ebeneezer Scrooge).  

Though it might seem to us, from the outside looking in at others, as though He does the first or the second of those two things inordinately in the lives of people we know or of whose lives we are aware, often, those assessments are based on a single snapshot in time.  At any given moment, in any single life, of course it's going to seem to us as though He does the first of those things more than He does the second (or vice-versa).

As unfair as it might seem to us (with our limited, myopic, mortal perspective), whatever else He is or is not, God is also a Sovereign.  I don't know why it seems as though God, to this point, has withheld certain blessings I have earnestly sought, but even the thick-headed, dull-of-heart, dull-of-mind, often-unseeing, often-unfeeling natural man that is Kenngo1969 has seen and felt the Hand of God in his life in unmistakable ways often enough to know that even if I don't understand His perhaps-unfathomable larger and long-term purposes, I can trust Him when His servants say, "All things work together for the Good of them that love God" (Romans 8:28); and "I know not the meaning of all things; nevertheless, I know that [God] loveth His children" (1 Nephi 11:17); and "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15); and so on.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Marginal Gains]

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69437-missionary-shot-down-in-street/

Seems sadly poignant to this thread.

[SamuelTheLamanite]

On 9/6/2017 at 7:11 AM, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

I am having a Facebook conversation with a friend, he is telling me about Littlewood's law and Ramsey Theory.  I am thinking maybe the bad things that happen are explained by Litttlewood's law and Ramsey theory because accidents are just a coincidence.  I believe what he is telling me is only helps Faith, it doesn't disprove it.  

We can't blame God for the bad things that happen, and you can't say God "help to certain people". 

Edited September 7, 2017 by SamuelTheLamanite

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/69437-missionary-shot-down-in-street/

Seems sadly poignant to this thread.

I don't deny (and I don't think anyone here whose views are similar to my own would deny) that it's easy to conclude, if one only looks at evidence from this mortal Second Act alone, that life is not fair.  The thing is, we don't remember the premortal First Act, and the post-mortal Third Act hasn't happened yet.  One must consider the three-act, premortal-mortal-postmortal drama in toto before reaching any such conclusion.