God gives special attention and help to certain people

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

If you don't have flood insurance, this is the next best thing. My understanding is that most in Houston did not have flood insurance. That makes it a very expensive place to live right now....

To be exact 85% of those flooded did not have flood insurance 

[Marginal Gains]

On 08/09/2017 at 4:06 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

What you, apparently, are missing (or downplaying, or ignoring, perhaps because it doesn't fit your [apparently] godless paradigm or what you do or do not want to believe about a God who does exist), Marginal Gains, is that I haven't told separate stories in this thread: I haven't told one story about an 11-13 year old kid whom God apparently didn't like, or toward whom He was ill-disposed, or toward whom He was, at best, apathetic, and so He allowed that 11-13 year old to suffer through two failed hip reconstructions and their painful, grueling, apparently-fruitless aftermath, on the one hand, and another story about a 14-15 year old kid whom he liked, or toward whom he was well-disposed, or toward whom (fortunately!) He was not apathetic, on the other hand, and so He blessed that 14-15 year old and the surgeon who operated on him through three subsequent successful operations.

The young man who went through all of that, the initial two failures and the subsequent three successes?  Same kid.  So my experience can't an instance of "we're back to the opening of the thread: apparently God loves some more than He loves others."

Of course it can. Because whilst your version of God was guiding your surgeons hands, he was allowing children to suffer at the hands of their abusers.

If God can physically intervene in your reality, then He has the ability to physically intervene in everyone’s reality. So when a child prays for the abuse to stop, and it doesn’t, it irrefutably means that’s because He chose not to. What kind of God chooses to not stop child abuse when He has the ability to do so, whilst seeing fit to help your surgeon perform the operation on you?

That’s what you need to rationalise because you believe God physically intervenes when He wants to.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Marginal Gains

[Atheist Mormon]

13 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Hopefully your employer has some decent disaster contingency plans in place.  Despite the fact that I am a reprehensible, reprobate, utterly irredeemable excuse for a human being; that women, children, and small animals flee in abject terror at the mere mention of my name;  that even mere weeds utterly refuse to grow within a five-mile radius of my home; and that even my pet maggot preferred death to my continued company, I wish you and yours well.   

You have good heart......

[Kenngo1969]

32 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

You have good heart......

Thank you.  

[Kenngo1969]

17 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Of course it can.

No, it can't, because, again, you're conveniently ignoring or downplaying my own not-inconsiderable physical and emotional suffering through those first two failed operations. God could have intervened then, too, but, for whatever reason, He did not.  (I'm not trying to be a "Drama King" here ... I'm just sayin'!)  I don't know precisely what God's purposes were for choosing to not intervene in the first two operations while intervening in the latter three, but I choose ... perhaps naively, perhaps foolishly, from your point of view, and that's fine ... to trust Him.

Quote

Because whilst your version of God was guiding your surgeons hands, he was allowing children to suffer at the hands of their abusers.

Yep, and he also allowed a child to suffer through two failed major operations and their physically- and emotionally-painful, grueling, ultimately-fruitless aftermath before that, too.  I freely admit, that I don't know all of the reasons for that, but I choose to believe that He does.

Quote

If God can physically intervene in your reality, then He has the ability to physically intervene in everyone’s reality.

I'm not sure what you mean by "physically intervene."  When I posit that God guides someone's actions, I'm not suggesting that He intervenes in the same manner in which, say, an earthly parent might guide a child's hands as the child learns to tie his shoes, nor am I suggesting that that's what happened when I use such phrases as, "God guided the hand of my surgeon."

Quote

So when a child prays for the abuse to stop, and it doesn’t, it irrefutably means that’s because He chose not to. What kind of God chooses to not stop child abuse when He has the ability to do so, whilst seeing fit to help your surgeon perform the operation on you?

The same God who allowed my sister-in-law, who is one of the finest people I have ever known, to die a horrible death from cancer.  I don't know all of the reasons why God, despite many fervent, faithful prayers that she be delivered from that fate, did not deliver her, and I would, indeed, think that is a tragedy, if I also thought that her existence was due to nothing more than more-or-less random biological processes and that, once her life was snuffed out, she simply succumbed to the void, but I don't think her existence is due to nothing more than simple biology, so I don't think she simply succumbed to the void.  I realize the only thing that will convince you of the soundness of my position is your own surprise at not having ceased to exist entirely when you shuffle off this mortal coil, so I suppose we'll simply have to wait to see who's right.  

And I'm sure Elizabeth Smart prayed, fervently and frequently (if not more-or-less constantly) for her abuse to stop.  I don't know why those prayers, along with those of her family and friends for her swift safe return, were not answered in the way she, her family, and her friends hoped they would be (at least, not at first), but I'm sure that they have faith that God does.  

We can't always choose our circumstances in this life: I couldn't choose not to have those operations (any of them, not just the ones that failed) if I wanted to enjoy the degree of orthopedic health I enjoy today; my sister-in-law couldn't choose to not get cancer; and Elizabeth Smart couldn't choose to not get kidnapped, raped daily for nine months, and otherwise abused.  Often, the only thing we can choose is how we respond to our circumstances, as unfair and undesirable as those circumstances may be.  If you believe that, ultimately, how we choose to respond to our circumstances matters only for the rest this life (which, frankly, is the equivalent of believing that, ultimately, such choices don't matter), that's your choice.  I believe ... and choose ... differently.

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That’s what you need to rationalise because you believe God physically intervenes when He wants to.

Again, when I say that I believe "God guided the hand of my surgeon," I'm not necessarily suggesting physical intervention. And saying that God intervenes "when He wants to" suggests that such fortuitous events are due to nothing more than His capricious whims, which is nothing more than a faint caricature of my position, a straw man which is much easier for you to obliterate.  (But thanks fer playin'! )  Our paradigms have irreconcilable differences.  Far from being a "man-bites-dog" story, that's simply another in a litany of "dog-bites-man" stories.

Irreconcilable differences notwithstanding, I wish you well.  I may not be able to reply for a few hours.  I have to go to work, alas!  More later, perhaps.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Gray]

On 9/7/2017 at 0:19 AM, Calm said:

And yet Jesus only raised a few from the dead and not all in his path who died.  Same with healing, he healed many, but not all in the land, let alone the world.

I doubt Jesus believed he had that power to heal everyone.

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

I doubt Jesus believed he had that power to heal everyone.

I'm not as sure as you.  I think it was an issue of not asking amiss or going against the Father's will.
He provided resurrection to everyone.

But you might be right - we really don't know exactly how much knowledge Christ possessed in mortality.  We know he knew some things, but not all.  Perhaps he had to exercise faith too.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

I doubt Jesus believed he had that power to heal everyone.

But likely more than he did.

[Avatar4321]

God helps those that ask. He also helps those that work. 

Sometimes He helps those that do neither

[ttribe]

11 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

God helps those that ask. He also helps those that work. 

Sometimes He helps those that do neither

How do you explain those of us who asked, begged even, and got nothing?

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

How do you explain those of us who asked, begged even, and got nothing?

That's what i'm wondering! been searching for Pop's relatives and we keep getting nothing, maybe in the millenium!

[strappinglad]

Maybe the guardian angel in charge of each of us are a bit like hometeachers. Some do better than others.

[Gray]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

But likely more than he did.

He seemed to connect it to faith alone. Still, he was one prophet in a big world. He couldn't be everywhere.

[ttribe]

13 hours ago, Duncan said:

That's what i'm wondering! been searching for Pop's relatives and we keep getting nothing, maybe in the millenium!

I had something a little more crisis-oriented in mind - like terminal illness, that kind of thing.

[Kenngo1969]

On 9/11/2017 at 8:54 PM, ttribe said:

How do you explain those of us who asked, begged even, and got nothing?

 

On 9/11/2017 at 8:59 PM, Duncan said:

That's what i'm wondering! been searching for Pop's relatives and we keep getting nothing, maybe in the millenium!

I'm sorry for what you both have been through and for what you're both going through.  By no means have my contributions to this thread been intended for me to set myself up as any kind of a paragon of virtue or an example of answered prayers. The truth is that when it comes to answered prayers, for the vast majority of us, life is a mixed bag: Perhaps there are found keys, but, if not, hopefully, there are kind locksmiths who can help us out of our predicament without charging us nearly what their work is worth (or perhaps without even charging us at all); perhaps there are miraculous cures, but, if not, hopefully, there is strength to endure and there is perspective gained despite (indeed, perhaps even because) of dire circumstances; and so on.

Indeed, my contributions to the thread are intended to illustrate this "mixed-bag" perspective: For every righteously-desired blessing I've been granted, at least one other blessing has been delayed or denied.  I've posted at length here about the protracted, circuitous route I continue to travel in search of financial security and occupational fulfillment.  This is especially puzzling to me in light of an experience I had in the Nauvoo Temple that I posted about on another thread.  I have a lot of questions to which I don't have the answer.  I have simply determined to not allow what, as yet, I do not know to persuade me to doubt the reality of the Oliver Cowdery, "Did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind-concerning-the-matter" moments I have experienced.  I have simply determined to not allow what I do know to be held hostage to what, as yet, I do not know.

Here's an account of my Nauvoo Temple Initiatory experience:

Quote

While I was wondering, in light of the denial of licensure [to practice law], what I should do next, I wasn’t necessarily overly troubled by it, and I wasn’t necessarily actively seeking answers. I visited the Nauvoo Temple where my aunt and uncle were serving as temple missionaries at the time and had the chance, for the first time since receiving my own endowment nearly 20 years before, to do initiatories. While I wouldn’t expect that passage to strike anyone else in the same way nor with the same force that it struck me, a particular passage from that ordinance struck me with unusual force: it talks about wielding a certain instrument in defense of certain assets. It made me think that this long, circuitous, tortuous odyssey I have undertaken in an effort to find a comfortable career niche might not have been completely in vain, after all.

Lack of progress on that front in the more than ten years since then (indeed, given the careless psych eval I received from an idiot psychologist, in some ways, I have regressed) makes that experience all the more perplexing, but, nonetheless, I still cannot deny what I experienced: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15).

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kenngo1969
Minor clarity edit

[Marginal Gains]

5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

I'm sorry for what you both have been through and for what you're both going through.  By no means have my contributions to this thread been intended for me to set myself up as any kind of a paragon of virtue or an example of answered prayers. The truth is that when it comes to answered prayers, for the vast majority of us, life is a mixed bag: Perhaps there are found keys, but, if not, hopefully, there are kind locksmiths who can help us out of our predicament without charging us nearly what their work is worth (or perhaps not without even charging us at all); perhaps there are miraculous cures, but, if not, hopefully, there is strength to endure and there is perspective gained despite (indeed, perhaps even because) of dire circumstances; and so on.

Indeed, my contributions to the thread are intended to illustrate this "mixed-bag" perspective: For every righteously-desired blessing I've been granted, at least one other blessing has been delayed or denied.  I've posted at length here about the protracted, circuitous route I continue to travel in search of financial security and occupational fulfillment.  This is especially puzzling to me in light of an experience I had in the Nauvoo Temple that I posted about on another thread.  I have a lot of questions to which I don't have the answer.  I have simply determined to not allow what, as yet, I do not know to persuade me to doubt the reality of the Oliver Cowdery, "Did-I-not-speak-peace-to-your-mind-concerning-the-matter" moments I have experienced.  I have simply determined to not allow what I do know to be held hostage to what, as yet, I do not know.

Here's an account of my Nauvoo Temple Initiatory experience:

Lack of progress on that front in the more than ten years since then (indeed, given the careless psych eval I received from an idiot psychologist, in some ways, I have regressed) makes that experience all the more perplexing, but, nonetheless, I still cannot deny what I experienced: "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in him" (Job 13:15).

Let me say again, I’m glad your surgery went well.

Can you look at it objectively with a wider lens and perhaps consider that you have been drawing a target where the arrow fell? Isn’t that a possibility in cases where divine intervention is claimed?

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Marginal Gains said:

Let me say again, I’m glad your surgery went well.

Can you look at it objectively with a wider lens and perhaps consider that you have been drawing a target where the arrow fell? Isn’t that a possibility in cases where divine intervention is claimed?

Anything is possible.  In matters of faith, we're all our own triers of fact with respect to what evidence we choose to admit, what evidence we choose to exclude, how much weight we choose to give any given piece of evidence we choose to admit, and so on. Given the myriad possible different perspectives, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to choose to exclude evidence I have chosen to admit, were to choose to weigh the evidence I have admitted differently than I do, and so on.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

On 9/12/2017 at 10:40 AM, ttribe said:

I had something a little more crisis-oriented in mind - like terminal illness, that kind of thing.

I don't know why the many fervent prayers offered in my sister-in-law's behalf that she be delivered from the horrible fate which befell her of dying from cancer were not answered in the way those who offered those prayers would have liked them to be, but I have faith that God does.

[Kenngo1969]

On 9/11/2017 at 8:54 PM, ttribe said:

How do you explain those of us who asked, begged even, and got nothing?

 

On 9/11/2017 at 8:59 PM, Duncan said:

That's what i'm wondering! been searching for Pop's relatives and we keep getting nothing, maybe in the millenium!

 

On 9/12/2017 at 10:40 AM, ttribe said:

I had something a little more crisis-oriented in mind - like terminal illness, that kind of thing.

I think Duncan's example is a good one, though. One would think that a righteous desire, a purely spiritually-oriented goal, an effort to keep one of Heavenly Father's commandments to seek out our kindred dead, would be something regarding which Heavenly Father would most readily grant blessings which His children seek. Opposition in all things, living in a fallen world, and similar conditions seem ever-present.  I can only say that if we allow such "fallen-world" conditions to convince us that God doesn't love us, then the Adversary wins even though he hasn't persuaded us to commit any "great or malignant" sins, to use Joseph Smith's phrase.  Again, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15).