God gives special attention and help to certain people

[stemelbow]

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.  The momentum started as a lady explained:

Quote

We were getting ready to leave for Church last Sunday.  We just moved into our place.  I saw my husband go to the window and check the window before we left.  We only have one key to the house.  We left.  Normally we leave the door in the garage open so we can get in the house.  I inadvertently locked the door.  When we came back we realized the door was locked and our only key was inside.  My husband said, "that's ok, I left the window unlocked".  I thought what a great blessing from God. 

Missionary went up right after, as I recall:

Quote

I'm from Houston.  Miraculously our house was the only house in our neighborhood that was not damaged.  Our house was spared because I have served a faithful mission.

The other missionary got up:

Quote

I wasn't planning on going on a mission.  As I got to age, everything started to fall in place and I realized I had to serve a mission.

Ok. Whatever.  I really don't think God works this way, necessarily.  But ok.  I'll leave people to their assumptions.

I read this article yesterday

Quote

Was it merely a coincidence that a member of the Quorum of the Twelve had been assigned many months earlier to preside at a stake conference in Blacksburg, Virginia, only days after such a horrendous event? Was it a random occurrence that an authorized servant of the Lord was in a place with people who needed blessings, solace, and comfort?" Elder Bednar wrote. "Or was this episode divinely orchestrated by a loving Lord who knew the distress of victims and the unsettledness of a community? I believe that in the work of the Lord there is no such thing as a coincidence. On this occasion, my companion and I were blessed to deliver tender mercies to many individuals — because the worth of souls is great in the sight of God."

Was a member of the 12 assigned in advance to areas wherever tragedy has struck?  Or was this coincidence?  It feels far more likely that it's coincidence.  I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important. 

Thoughts?

[rongo]

I agree that sometimes people read too much into coincidences and chance, but I also really do believe that God also sometimes blesses specific individuals and intervenes into specific situations (while not blessing others or intervening into other situations). 

I don't know that we can know for certain which is which, but having faith in this gives people meaning. The slippery slope is when cynics want to play "snopes" with everything and everybody, and question any divine intervention or special dispensations in every case. That's not a good thing, either. If you go down that route, you are approaching functional atheism. That seems like a joyless and hopeless existence to me. 

[cdowis]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

 We do not casually talk about our special experiences to the world.   And I think we need to be careful of this even among our own, because such "faith promoting" stories often border on prideful bragging.  Our testimonies of such things must be guided by inspiration on whether the Lord wants us to share the details of such incidents.

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.  The momentum started as a lady explained:

Missionary went up right after, as I recall:

The other missionary got up:

Ok. Whatever.  I really don't think God works this way, necessarily.  But ok.  I'll leave people to their assumptions.

I read this article yesterday

Was a member of the 12 assigned in advance to areas wherever tragedy has struck?  Or was this coincidence?  It feels far more likely that it's coincidence.  I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important. 

Thoughts?

There's a long tradition of assigning mathematical improbability (real or imagined) to the agency and action of God. For example: the apostles casting lots to replace Judas. According to the theory, God plays dice with the universe.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Gray

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, cdowis said:

 We do not casually talk about our special experiences to the world.   And I think we need to be careful of this even among our own, because such "faith promoting" stories often border on prideful bragging.  Our testimonies of such things must be guided by inspiration on whether the Lord wants us to share the details of such incidents.

So publishing it in a book should be a no no? 

[Maidservant]

The only person you have to worry about is you.  And I hope you find many, many things throughout every single day that you can count as miracles, be grateful for, laugh about, celebrate, find peace in, and ascribe to God.  I hope there is no end to it for you. 

When I sit in Sacrament Meeting and hear people share content or in ways in which I myself don't order my life, I choose to feel honored that they feel enough trust to share with me, and I honor them for their own experience and where they are at in life.

You know, I have once felt that God prepared a moment for me.  I had locked myself out of the car for at least an hour until solved.  Which meant I was an hour getting home from the store.  But arriving at that moment instead of earlier, I was able to see the moon rise large and red from our house on the hill.  I was humbled and felt ecstatic that my horrible, unexpected wrestle resulted in such glory.   However, saying that all out loud, I'm highly aware that it sounds dumb; as if God made the moon just for me.  I shared it with my mom and she wanted to share it as a faith promoting story in her Relief Society, and I asked her not to, because I actually rather agree with you--I don't think testimony is or ought to be in fantastic moments.  On the other hand, I still like this memory and I still like to inhabit my feeling of wonder, and I actually haven't changed my mind--I still do think God did that for me.  So whatever :).  I get to be a kid, it's not a crime.

At this point in my progression as a human being, this is where I am at:  there is only God.  It's all medicine.  Everything is a blessing.  ("A problem is just a blessing that hasn't happened yet."~Maidservant)

However, I'm not a fan of the "candy machine" God--you put in the tokens, push a button, and goodies come out.

On the other hand--I think the universe is always flowing in ways that allow us to cross paths and show up for each other, and if that isn't God, then what is it?  Why do I have to strip it of God and call it coincidence (huh? what's that)?

Anyway :).

Oh, and yes . . . God ALWAYS helps me find my keys.

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

I agree that sometimes people read too much into coincidences and chance, but I also really do believe that God also sometimes blesses specific individuals and intervenes into specific situations (while not blessing others or intervening into other situations). 

So God is a respecter of persons? 

Quote

I don't know that we can know for certain which is which, but having faith in this gives people meaning. The slippery slope is when cynics want to play "snopes" with everything and everybody, and question any divine intervention or special dispensations in every case. That's not a good thing, either. If you go down that route, you are approaching functional atheism. That seems like a joyless and hopeless existence to me. 

hah...I like your push for functional atheism, as if those who don't think God is a respecter of persons can't function as believers. Or rather as if the only way to function as a believer is to accept that God gives certain little blessings to some blessed people while not doing so for others.   Are we offending God when we think another's claim of God's involvement is not God's involvement at all?  If so, then don't we all do that to some extent or another.  None of us just accepts that everyone else's claims to seeing God or God doing something are true, right? 

Edited September 6, 2017 by stemelbow

[cdowis]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So publishing it in a book should be a no no? 

I assume this is a rhetorical question.  Anyway, there are publishers who focus on the LDS market and I cannot be critical of  the choices they make to publish such books.

[stemelbow]

7 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

The only person you have to worry about is you.  And I hope you find many, many things throughout every single day that you can count as miracles, be grateful for, laugh about, celebrate, find peace in, and ascribe to God.  I hope there is no end to it for you. 

When I sit in Sacrament Meeting and hear people share content or in ways in which I myself don't order my life, I choose to feel honored that they feel enough trust to share with me, and I honor them for their own experience and where they are at in life.

You know, I have once felt that God prepared a moment for me.  I had locked myself out of the car for at least an hour until solved.  Which meant I was an hour getting home from the store.  But arriving at that moment instead of earlier, I was able to see the moon rise large and red from our house on the hill.  I was humbled and felt ecstatic that my horrible, unexpected wrestle resulted in such glory.   However, saying that all out loud, I'm highly aware that it sounds dumb; as if God made the moon just for me.  I shared it with my mom and she wanted to share it as a faith promoting story in her Relief Society, and I asked her not to, because I actually rather agree with you--I don't think testimony is or ought to be in fantastic moments.  On the other hand, I still like this memory and I still like to inhabit my feeling of wonder, and I actually haven't changed my mind--I still do think God did that for me.  So whatever :).  I get to be a kid, it's not a crime.

At this point in my progression as a human being, this is where I am at:  there is only God.  It's all medicine.  Everything is a blessing.  ("A problem is just a blessing that hasn't happened yet."~Maidservant)

However, I'm not a fan of the "candy machine" God--you put in the tokens, push a button, and goodies come out.

On the other hand--I think the universe is always flowing in ways that allow us to cross paths and show up for each other, and if that isn't God, then what is it?  Why do I have to strip it of God and call it coincidence (huh? what's that)?

Anyway :).

Oh, and yes . . . God ALWAYS helps me find my keys.

Well I will say, God is whatever we define Him to be.  If God is one who spends energy giving special people special attention while ignoring others, so be it (afterall someone out there loses their keys for good).  Such testimony-ing says more about one's perception of how God views the person who so shares, then it does about God, it seems.  Elder Bednar's conception of God is a weird one to me.  I'd have to really find myself particularly blessed or special to see God as he does. I find myself objecting, I guess, because such a conception of God is ugly and terrifying to me. 

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

So God is a respecter of persons? 

Well, he has a chosen people, a promised land, etc. He endows some with power from on high, and he gives an exclusive gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood authority, etc.

I think you are wresting when you try to apply Acts 10 to any and all situations and people. Clearly, he blesses some and withholds blessings from others.

hah...I like your push for

functional atheism, as if those who don't think God is a respecter of persons can't function as believers. Or rather as if the only way to function as a believer is to accept that God gives certain little blessings to some blessed people while not doing so for others.

Well, what's the alternative? Believing that God blesses all people equally at all times and in all places --- no matter what, and regardless of any factors or considerations?

Do you see *any* evidence that that is the case?

[stemelbow]

Just now, rongo said:

Well, he has a chosen people, a promised land, etc. He endows some with power from on high, and he gives an exclusive gift of the Holy Ghost, priesthood authority, etc.

I think you are wresting when you try to apply Acts 10 to any and all situations and people. Clearly, he blesses some and withholds blessings from others.

I'm not particularly married to Acts 10.  Peter seems to be suggesting that God will save anyone who decides to be saved.  I like that idea.  But, it seems to me, God gives special attention to certain people on your view.  What is clear to you is not so clear to me.  I'm far less settled on this for sure.  And in truth, this conception of God as you describe is nihilistic it seems clear to me. 

Just now, rongo said:

 

 

Well, what's the alternative? Believing that God blesses all people equally at all times and in all places --- no matter what, and regardless of any factors or considerations?

Do you see *any* evidence that that is the case?

There is no evidence in a claim that God blessed someone.  There is assumption by people, and there is bias as it pertains to someone's particular conception of God. 

[rongo]

Just now, stemelbow said:

There is no evidence in a claim that God blessed someone.  There is assumption by people, and there is bias as it pertains to someone's particular conception of God. 

Not even big picture? Chosen people, promised land, etc.?

That's what I mean by "functional non-believer."

"Sure, I believe, but I don't believe he's actually blessed anyone over anyone else. Or that he blesses anyone in a way that can be determined by anyone."

[Gray]

1 minute ago, rongo said:

Not even big picture? Chosen people, promised land, etc.?

That's what I mean by "functional non-believer."

"Sure, I believe, but I don't believe he's actually blessed anyone over anyone else. Or that he blesses anyone in a way that can be determined by anyone."

The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

[Marginal Gains]

29 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

The only person you have to worry about is you.

I’m not really sure that that’s the way the Plan of Happiness is supposed to work...

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

Of course it does. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about special and specific blessings. The question is whether or not these even exist.

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, rongo said:

Not even big picture? Chosen people, promised land, etc.?

That's what I mean by "functional non-believer."

"Sure, I believe, but I don't believe he's actually blessed anyone over anyone else. Or that he blesses anyone in a way that can be determined by anyone."

I don't say God doesn't provide blessings to people.  Even still if there is God, that hardly means the little sweet things that people attribute to Him are Him or are always Him.  I can't imagine any one person ever agreeing that everyone else's claim of God involving Himself by giving a special blessing to be legit.  we all have too varied conceptions of God to even agree how He would bless or involve Himself. 

I guess in this sense, it doesn't really matter.  It is God as long as someone thinks it's God.  It might as well be.  I fell and scraped my knee on a hike this weekend, but God intervened and it was only a scrape.  I mean it could be that I could have broke my leg.  But if I broke my leg I wouldn't have been able to take my dog to the park later, and wouldn't have ran into Stan, who told me about Irene and her bad health.  I wouldn't then have reported the news back to my wife who wouldn't have in turn decided to pay her a call to see how she could help.  Which wouldn't have inspired Irene to feel obliged to reach out to her sister whom she hadn't spoken to in years, rekindling their relationship. Which wouldn't have caused her sister to feel useless enough to stop herself from killing herself.  Which also blessed her son who would have went on a killing spree in his anger at the news of his mom having ended her life....and on it goes.

Thus, it's never that one is blessed over another.  It is that God is so involved He's doing nothing but moving chess pieces on a board which happens to be the only thing that is causing anything in this world.  But this also would require all tragedy and evil is God. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by stemelbow

[Marginal Gains]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

Of course it does. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about special and specific blessings. The question is whether or not these even exist.

You are exactly right.

How do we differentiate between arrows hitting targets and targets being drawn where arrows have just happened to land?

[CA Steve]

Some enterprising grad student at BYU should do a study which compares the frequency at which LDS people are able to find their keys against how often non LDS are so blessed. That would answer the question once and for all. He could entitle the study "The Keys of the Kingdom".

[Gray]

25 minutes ago, rongo said:

Of course it does. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about special and specific blessings. The question is whether or not these even exist.

Apparently not, if I catch the meaning of the rain falls on the just and the unjust. I think Jesus' views was that special blessings (and punishments) would only be meted out at the end. As in, when the meek inherit the earth.

[JLHPROF]

I agree with your OP that those are perfect examples of reading too much into events.
However, the title of your thread is still accurate.  God DOES give special attention and aid to certain people.  Not because he loves them more, but for a variety of reasons.

As for coincidence - I'm not a big believer in that myself.  I think much coincidence can be attributed to God.  However the examples you gave I think are a case of over-attribution.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

... I'm not a fan of the "candy machine" God--you put in the tokens, push a button, and goodies come out. ...

 

Neither am I. https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/

 

[Rain]

 

38 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Some enterprising grad student at BYU should do a study which compares the frequency at which LDS people are able to find their keys against how often non LDS are so blessed. That would answer the question once and for all. He could entitle the study "The Keys of the Kingdom".

Except that he answers the prayers of all not just LDS or even Christian.

[Marginal Gains]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

Except that he answers the prayers of all not just LDS or even Christian.

He even answers the prayers of people who don’t pray. It seems.

I really think Prayer is a self-meditatory exercise that helps people accept what happens or has happened, but it doesn’t result in influencing God to do or not do something to intervene in a persons reality.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Marginal Gains

[CV75]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Sometimes I wonder how anyone can take Church seriously. 

In testimony meeting this past Sunday we had a few stories of God doing miraculous things for people.  The momentum started as a lady explained:

Missionary went up right after, as I recall:

The other missionary got up:

Ok. Whatever.  I really don't think God works this way, necessarily.  But ok.  I'll leave people to their assumptions.

I read this article yesterday

Was a member of the 12 assigned in advance to areas wherever tragedy has struck?  Or was this coincidence?  It feels far more likely that it's coincidence.  I could never be a 12 because I could never see myself as this important. 

Thoughts?

When has God shown you personal attention, and how special does that seem to you?

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Well I will say, God is whatever we define Him to be.

Agreed.

(Can you be satisfied/delighted with your own definition, and allow others' theirs?)

If God is one who spends energy giving special people special attention while ignoring others, so be it (afterall someone out there loses their keys for good). 

My reply was to show the opposite.  "And I hope you find many, many things throughout every single day that you can count as miracles, be grateful for, laugh about, celebrate, find peace in, and ascribe to God.  I hope there is no end to it for you.   . . . there is only God.  It's all medicine. . . .  I think the universe is always flowing in ways that allow us to cross paths and show up for each other."  I absolutely reject the following God you mention and describe, nor do I see it: "spends energy giving special people special attention while ignoring others."  If that wasn't clear from my previous reply, let me say it now.

Such testimony-ing says more about one's perception of how God views the person who so shares, then it does about God, it seems. 

Exactly.

I'd have to really find myself particularly blessed or special to see God as he does. I find myself objecting, I guess, because such a conception of God is ugly and terrifying to me. 

Why is it terrifying that you (stemelbow, yes you!) are blessed and special?  Being blessed and special doesn't mean "above everyone else . . ."  Is that really what you think the people who shared in your testimony meeting were imparting?

There's more than enough blessings for everyone.  The basic premise--that sometimes God intervenes and sometimes he doesn't--I challenge that and disagree with that whole setup.  A God on the interventionist/noninterventionist axis.  It is not necessary to pigeonhole God into either of those categories (unless desired of course, but there are other ways to think about the whole thing than to resort to those categories).  I see a God who is always there, always intervening, always speaking, always giving, always running after you, always trying to knock down the door.   It doesn't always take the form of supernatural bits, but it's never gone either.

You seem to feel that those who tell 'God helped me find my keys' mock (even if unintentionally) those who never find their keys.   While you put across the emotional tone that mocks the childlike wonder of those who accept God in finding their keys.  Why do you want to take that away from others?  Why do you want to take that away from the child inside you?

 Here's the problem with taking bit stories, because I'll bet every single one of those people who gave a little story about how they noticed God showing up (NOT 'how God showed up' but 'how they NOTICED God showing up', different proposals), knows exactly what it is like to feel/be abandoned by God.  Because every human being knows that.  So you are not acknowledging the whole picture.  They also likely have their stories about someone who died, someone who was violated, things they lost and will never get back.  I know I do (don't get me started).  They have their moments in the dark when they are screaming "God, where are you!?"  See it all, stemelbow, if you will.  No person is "all blessed" and other people "all forsaken".  Everyone is all of those, all together, sometimes smooshed together (like is it a blessing or a curse when your preemie newborn twins are in ICU for 4 weeks? it's a curse because it happened at all; a blessing because there is medical help, priesthood help; a curse because death is imminent; a blessing because you can feel your ancestors from the other side, and feel the tenderness for life; a curse because why does it take an experience like this to show us and my babies suffering). Life is wondrous AND terrible--and usually in the very same moment.

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I do agree that if you won't see yourself as particularly blessed and special, then . . . you won't see yourself as particularly blessed and special.  The corollary is that if you become willing to see yourself blessed . . . then a whole other world/ God opens up.  I'm not talking about theology.  I'm talking about YOU, stemelbow, and the opportunity to choose your outlook here.  If you like.  If not, no worries.

 

1 hour ago, Marginal Gains said:

I’m not really sure that that’s the way the Plan of Happiness is supposed to work...

Please don't misunderstand me.  There's no reason to.

But I will take a moment to clarify, as I can see my wording may be understood more than one way.

The Plan of Happiness absolutely is about each person being accountable for themselves, including their view of and relationship with God.  You can't make choices for other people.  The snow on your own doorstep, the beam in your own eye.  THAT is what my words were referencing.

If you are meaning within yourself about how we are supposed to love and serve one another, then of course I agree with that, and my phrase doesn't apply at all.

 

[forgive my crazy quoting and replying formats, I still have no idea how to do all that properly]