The Church is Losing Millennials?

[halconero]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What do any of you think about the program installed in the Missionary program "Preach My Gospel"?  As awesome as it is, does this give missionaries more leeway to change their faith paradigms?  I know my husband did it the old fashion way, he memorized scripture and the lessons, showed the filmstrips etc.  Just thought today that this could have provided a path of more open and free thought.  I might just be talking gibberish, having never been a missionary.  

Currently I have a nephew that is going down a different path than he was once on.  He was a zealous missionary in the Tallahassee Florida mission.  He came home early with severe back pain.  His doctor at home gave the diagnosis that this occurred because of his strenuous bike riding while on his mission, I kid you not.  

My nephew went on to marrying a young gal in the temple, but a year later she left the marriage.  He was still very active and wholeheartedly believed shortly after.  But in the last year he moved away from his hometown, is now covered in tattoos on his arms, and seems to be changing as far as staying on the path.  That's all I'm going to say, because I don't live with him 24/7.  But my sister and brother in law I'm sure, are very concerned.  

How deep could have his testimony been, or it's still there, but he may look at it in a more nuanced way.  

I mean...I don't want to nitpick, but experiencing coming home early, getting divorced (and everything that precipitated it) and having that move might be a tremendous trial for anyone regardless of whether they memorized scriptures, showed filmstrips, or used Preach My Gospel.

I will say that despite the greater leeway it gives, the amount of time spent with the 12 Weeks Training Program in the field, District and Zone Meetings, Zone Conferences and everything else is more than sufficient to indoctrinate (and I don't mean that pejoratively) any missionary.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

What?  I don't know what you mean.  Of course no one is told to sale themselves, but I can't imagine missionary service without that unspoken agenda.  That's all it was--go out and try to impress people.  Set them up by building relationships with them.  Get members to trust you by teaching them, and making them feel like you trustworthy, spiritual, and can impress others.  I don't know how that was missed by anyone.

Who is making up this unspoken agenda?  I don't know of any training missionaries receive where they are taught, implicitly or explicitly, to sell themselves.  Not when I was a missionary and not in any training or interactions I've had with missionaries now.  Missionaries were and are taught to teach with and help people feel the Spirit.  They are taught that it is the Spirit that converts, not personalities.  Their may be some missionaries who don't fully understand what this means, but that is not how they are trained.  Of course we, as members of the church, want others to trust us, but it is always the Spirit that we are striving to have with us as we teach.

[Duncan]

39 minutes ago, halconero said:

This is entirely anecdotal, but here in Calgary whatever loss the Church is experiencing with regards to Millennials should be contrasted against the dedication of those currently active. Throughout the Calgary Regional YSA (there are 7 YSA wards in the city of Calgary, with a population around 1,000,000 people) the percentage of Returned Missionaries, female and male, has never been so large in my experience. Currently, every YSA ward with an attendance of around 100-140 has between 15-20 temple ordinance workers operating from them. My ward alone supplies 15 temple workers, and we're one of the smaller wards with an average attendance of around 70. My Saturday Afternoon shift at the Calgary Temple has 20 YSA ordinance workers out of a shift of 60 workers.

Related to working in the temple are family history activities. The Calgary Temple keeps track of the percentage of ordinances preformed for family versus those on the temple file, and the difference is significant. Close to 65% of the names for whom ordinances are performed come from family, and that number is increasing due to some recently policy changes we've made regarding the ability of workers to do their own family names during their shift. Relevant to Millennials is the fact that YSA members are performing these ordinances for family members at a higher rate than the general Latter-day Saint population.

As far as missionary work goes, the amount of YSA posting on social media with regards to the Church is significant. In a roundabout way, I would say that because of the social issues which pervade the world today, many of the YSA are actually more compassionate, empathetic, understanding, and eloquent in how they interact with LGBTQ2+ individuals than previous generations were. They are able to share the Gospel in a compassionate manner, valiant in proselyting activities, yet with tolerance and love. 

These anecdotal reflections aren't specific to Calgary either, but has been my experience in the Vancouver and Toronto areas as well.

Is the Church losing Millennials? Most definitely. 

Yet I would argue that the future is bright for the Church with regards to its active Young Adults. They are vibrant, joyous, and more engaged with the Work of Perfecting the Saints, Redeeming the Dead, Gathering Israel, and Aiding the Poor and the Needy in a way I haven't witnessed among many previous generations (sorry old folks) either in my youth or into adulthood.

Your experience with activity is really different from mine in terms of Calgary. But you are right that winds are changing in how youths see the Church and their place in it and the Church's place in the world.

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, halconero said:

I mean...I don't want to nitpick, but experiencing coming home early, getting divorced (and everything that precipitated it) and having that move might be a tremendous trial for anyone regardless of whether they memorized scriptures, showed filmstrips, or used Preach My Gospel.

I will say that despite the greater leeway it gives, the amount of time spent with the 12 Weeks Training Program in the field, District and Zone Meetings, Zone Conferences and everything else is more than sufficient to indoctrinate (and I don't mean that pejoratively) any missionary.

True...they still get that training, guess I didn't think of that.  Maybe my post should have been put in the returned missionaries that become inactive thread.  In which case my own son was inactive almost instantly upon returning from his mission while attending school at Utah State.  But has never told me he no longer believes, I think he still does.  So I wonder why he remains inactive.  He's married now, and his wife and he are both inactive as far as I know, but you couldn't find a more decent couple.  Even with my doubts, I still think they could have a great life going to church, meeting other couples etc. and having that instant support system, kind of weird I know.  She's LDS too, and her mother is TBM, not so much her dad, who lost his faith shortly after his mission so many years ago.  

[stemelbow]

29 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Who is making up this unspoken agenda?  I don't know of any training missionaries receive where they are taught, implicitly or explicitly, to sell themselves.  Not when I was a missionary and not in any training or interactions I've had with missionaries now.  Missionaries were and are taught to teach with and help people feel the Spirit.  They are taught that it is the Spirit that converts, not personalities.  Their may be some missionaries who don't fully understand what this means, but that is not how they are trained.  Of course we, as members of the church, want others to trust us, but it is always the Spirit that we are striving to have with us as we teach.

Missionaries are there trying to impress members and non-members alike.  They need put their best foot forward.  That's the whole program. 

[stemelbow]

45 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, but I know the show business of missionary life. I lived it for years. Plus if you spend enough time with the missionaries (and I spend quite a bit) their defenses go down and you know them better then you do if you feed them once every month and get a spiritual thought and I stand by my assessment that elder now, speaking generally and not specifically, are better now then they were when I was out.

You were just on a bad mission, perhaps.  I tend to think they quality of people going is the same.  It would be interesting if they were more spiritual and committed and yet fall away more frequently these days.  But I don't have any indication that that is true, either. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

I am sure we would both agree that one should not change beliefs based solely on peer pressure.

But did you not say recently in another thread that if Joseph Smith's beliefs regarding God had not evolved over time, that would be a "red flag"?

In other words, is it always a virtue to "stay true to beliefs"?

Or can staying true to beliefs sometimes be a "red flag" of its own?

As the context of my post reflects, not staying true because the belief becomes uncomfortable to bear in society is different than changing belief because of revelation. 

A testimony (changed or not) should always be founded on what the Spirit has testified of and not on what society teaches or what the majority dictates. 

[Duncan]

I think it was Dr. Phil who said "things ceased to exist because they ceased to become relevant" I think too people are causal or inactive in their attendance or spirituality because "life gets in the way" and Church kind of gets pumped out and after awhile you say well, life is going well  why do I need Church or God?

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

Who is making up this unspoken agenda?  I don't know of any training missionaries receive where they are taught, implicitly or explicitly, to sell themselves.  Not when I was a missionary and not in any training or interactions I've had with missionaries now.  Missionaries were and are taught to teach with and help people feel the Spirit.  They are taught that it is the Spirit that converts, not personalities.  Their may be some missionaries who don't fully understand what this means, but that is not how they are trained.  Of course we, as members of the church, want others to trust us, but it is always the Spirit that we are striving to have with us as we teach.

My cousin, a sister missionary in the 60's had to attend a class on selling encyclopedias and do cold calls.  This drove her to some deep depression and because she couldn't up the quota..spent a lot of time in a dark closet.  Did they do this really?

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Missionaries are there trying to impress members and non-members alike.  They need put their best foot forward.  That's the whole program. 

All humans try to impress others, it's part of our nature.  It's not something new or unique to missionaries.  As we grow and mature we learn that it's who we are inside that is most impressive.  Missionaries succeed despite not knowing this. 

Have you ever had an employer of church leader tell you "don't put your best foot forward on this one."? 

The whole program is to follow Christ's command to take the gospel to the entire world.

The whole program is to teach by the Spirit so that others may be converted by that Spirit.

The whole program is to have joy in serving the Lord.

[ksfisher]

25 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

My cousin, a sister missionary in the 60's had to attend a class on selling encyclopedias and do cold calls.  This drove her to some deep depression and because she couldn't up the quota..spent a lot of time in a dark closet.  Did they do this really?

Never heard of any thing like this.  Perhaps this was a mission president trying to teach his missionaries how to approach people they don't know.  I know this was a struggle for me when I first arrived in the mission field.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

You were just on a bad mission, perhaps.  I tend to think they quality of people going is the same.  It would be interesting if they were more spiritual and committed and yet fall away more frequently these days.  But I don't have any indication that that is true, either. 

I doubt it. My mission was the highest baptizing in the area (meaning area designation under area 70s) and the highest baptizing on the continent.

[Hamba Tuhan]

 

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I tend to think they quality of people going is the same.

As someone who served a mission in the 90s and has worked closely with the full-time missionaries most of my life thereafter -- including now serving my second stint as ward mission leader in my current ward -- I have to concur with The Nehor. For the past several years, our ward has been blessed with a series of remarkable young men and young women. Their dedication, faith, knowledge, and personal conversion astound me. And it seems to me that they just keep getting better and better.

For what it's worth, I also don't see evidence of this waning post-mission. I am Facebook friends with nearly every returned Elder who has served in our ward during the past 2.5 years (we only had Sisters before that), and I communicate with them frequently, sometimes by their initiation and sometimes by mine. (Some of them talk to me via iMessage as well.) I don't know of a single one -- from Colombia to Finland -- who isn't active and doing good things.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the mission president tends to send missionaries to our ward who need a bit of help. One of those, whom the MP left here for his final eight months so that he could go home strong, has been serving as the elders quorum president in his ward almost since his return, and he's already helped five of his mates get baptised.

Another who served in our ward for eight months regularly sends me messages to tell me what he has most recently learnt from revelation. His latest message simply read, 'God's way is the best way. The ONLY way'. No doubt there will be a personal experience behind this, and I'll ask him about it at some point.

Another one, who served in our ward twice, sent me a video clip via Facebook Messenger a couple of weeks ago. It was of him and the full-time missionaries in his car on their way to an appointment that he had arranged for them. As the camera panned round to him in the driver seat, he said, 'Brother Hamba, I just want you to see that I'm now doing what you do'. Good stuff!

[Teancum]

On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 6:41 PM, Storm Rider said:

It is odd how those who are engaged in the work at all levels seems to attract the same type of people.  Those people who have all the fire and engagement of a lukewarm, tepid, bowl of much seem to attract the same type of people.  I wonder why that is?

Hard evidence rather than anecdotes may make your opinion more meaningful.

 

 

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Remember in that parable that the lost sheep was simply lost and is ready to come back to the fold when found.   If one of the sheep purposely decides to run away, they are not lost.  They don't want to be a part of the fold. 

Sort of like the prodigal son....

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Blue, some see through a glass darkly while others see through mud and then wonder why all they see is mud.  Their eyes are always focused on the most negative, the most egregious perception possible and then think that is the world.  They have forgotten to look up and actually see that the entire problem is their own perception.  Reality has left them behind.  

Storm

Some are open to all truth wherever it may be found.  They are willing to examine their own long held religious, political and other views with an attitude of being led to truth wherever it is and wherever it may be found.  They are willing to examine long held dear to their heart closely held beliefs and leave them behind if they should not be held on to no matter how painful it may be,  Truth seekers are open and honest and willing to go down painful paths.  They are not negative and don't just see mud.  Those who are not willing to do so no matter the pain and the cost are not living in reality.

 

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Hard evidence rather than anecdotes may make your opinion more meaningful.

You want hard evidence that people with similar views on things tend to congregate?

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Sort of like the prodigal son....

In that story, the dad did not go chasing after his wayward son.  He simply accepted him and rejoiced after he came back.  I believe for some people who leave the Church have to figure out that the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.  They have to find out the secular world might offer them some convenience in times of peace but when the storms of life come, it will give them little.  Wickedness is never happiness and perhaps they have to experience it themselves.

[ttribe]

45 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

In that story, the dad did not go chasing after his wayward son.  He simply accepted him and rejoiced after he came back.  I believe for some people who leave the Church have to figure out that the grass is not necessarily greener on the other side of the fence.  They have to find out the secular world might offer them some convenience in times of peace but when the storms of life come, it will give them little.  Wickedness is never happiness and perhaps they have to experience it themselves.

He also didn't say "good riddance" when his son left, either.

Edited April 16, 2016 by ttribe

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

He also didn't say "good riddance" when his son left, either.

Neither did I.  That is not a term I use in my normal vocab.

[Duncan]

I'm just talked with someone who recently quit the Church and they don't agree with the recent policy change and what can you say? support the prophets but hate yourself? how do you love yourself but still be against these issues? I have no answer 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

As someone who served a mission in the 90s and has worked closely with the full-time missionaries most of my life thereafter -- including now serving my second stint as ward mission leader in my current ward -- I have to concur with The Nehor. For the past several years, our ward has been blessed with a series of remarkable young men and young women. Their dedication, faith, knowledge, and personal conversion astound me. And it seems to me that they just keep getting better and better.

For what it's worth, I also don't see evidence of this waning post-mission. I am Facebook friends with nearly every returned Elder who has served in our ward during the past 2.5 years (we only had Sisters before that), and I communicate with them frequently, sometimes by their initiation and sometimes by mine. (Some of them talk to me via iMessage as well.) I don't know of a single one -- from Colombia to Finland -- who isn't active and doing good things.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the mission president tends to send missionaries to our ward who need a bit of help. One of those, whom the MP left here for his final eight months so that he could go home strong, has been serving as the elders quorum president in his ward almost since his return, and he's already helped five of his mates get baptised.

Another who served in our ward for eight months regularly sends me messages to tell me what he has most recently learnt from revelation. His latest message simply read, 'God's way is the best way. The ONLY way'. No doubt there will be a personal experience behind this, and I'll ask him about it at some point.

Another one, who served in our ward twice, sent me a video clip via Facebook Messenger a couple of weeks ago. It was of him and the full-time missionaries in his car on their way to an appointment that he had arranged for them. As the camera panned round to him in the driver seat, he said, 'Brother Hamba, I just want you to see that I'm now doing what you do'. Good stuff!

Did you serve as a young man Hamba?  If so, I pictured you to be much older.  Please take that as a compliment.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Neither did I.  That is not a term I use in my normal vocab.

Don't try to split hairs. That was obviously the sentiment you expressed at the outset in this thread and have been attempting to rationalize ever since.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Did you serve as a young man Hamba?

I was 19 when I began my mission but turned 20 in my first area. I felt young then, but now we have some Elders who finish their missions at nearly the age when I began mine. We have older ones, too. Of the four Elders currently serving in our ward, one was baptised at age 21 and started his mission one year later, and another one was baptised at age 21 and then worked and saved for three years before starting his mission. To be honest, I can't see any difference between the 18-year-old Elders and our 24-year-old Elder. They're all just really, really good. I thank God every day that He willingly sends us such miracles.

Edited April 16, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[why me]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

 

If you only hang around members of the church, then you might be thinking that nothing has changed over the past decade.  Unfortunately you are wrong.  And the youth of the church know that.  Will the church ever get that positive image back?  The missionaries can knock on all the doors they want.  But if people see the church as not a good influence for them and their children, there is not going to be much of an opportunity to teach the message.  

I know many of you will easily dismiss my comments, but Why Me is right.  This is a big issue amongst the youth.  Maybe I shouldn't have related to you what I have noticed because I know many will take this personally.  It certainly is easy to write off my views as being too radical for the TBM.  But in this instance, I am only telling you what I see.  There is a big difference between what people tell you when they know you are Mormon and when they think you are one of them.  

Many young people have a let live, be free attitude and are rather open when it comes to values that used to be frowned upon, mainly centered in social issues. Mormonism has gotten bad press when it comes to social policy. And I am sure that young mormons feel the pressure and the social baggage that they may feel comes with mormonism. 

I can compare this with muslim youth that I see. Parents are dressing their girls much earlier now in the hijab. I can see girls who are just nine and younger wearing the hijab. And then I see teens in the hijab too. I think that muslim parents wish to convey the muslim identity on their children and make them proud to be muslim. It is not easy getting girls to wear a hijab and I am sure that the community does put pressure to do so. And when you asked some of these girls why are they wearing the hijab, they exclaim that it is part of their identity as  a muslim. A very western reply which I am sure is a calculated reply for western consumption.

Mormon kids do not feel such pressure except maybe in the mormon corridor. Most kids are outside such community pressure and may have no idea about their own identity as mormons. Maybe there should be classes for the young about the importance of the mormon identity.

Edited April 16, 2016 by why me