The Church is Losing Millennials?

[ALarson]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Many of the values of the millennial generation have stated inclusion, tolerance, and are not values they feel are being reflected." Millennials are more supportive of social change like gay marriage than their parents and don't agree with some of the stances the LDS church has taken in recent years.

I think this is accurate.

I visited the single's ward in our stake this last Sunday on assignment from my Bishop.  He is concerned because several from our ward who attend there have either become semi-active or have completely stopped attending.  The numbers in this ward are really shrinking and their activity rate is plumeting.

I sat in on the Sunday school group lesson and was surprised that the new policy and gay marriage was brought up.  It seemed all quite natural and as if they just openly discuss it regularly.  No one spoke out against the leaders (however, it wasn't hard to tell how they felt about the new policy), but all the comments favored the right of gay couples to marry and most all seemed to nod in agreement (of course some may have been afraid to speak up or disagree).  

I thought this was revealing as I cannot imagine a group of older adults discussing this openly at church.  I've heard it in private discussions, but not in an open group setting.

[6EQUJ5]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I think this is accurate.

I visited the single's ward in our stake this last Sunday on assignment from my Bishop.  He is concerned because several from our ward who attend there have either become semi-active or have completely stopped attending.  The numbers in this ward are really shrinking and their activity rate is plumeting.

I sat in on the Sunday school group lesson and was surprised that the new policy and gay marriage was brought up.  It seemed all quite natural and as if they just openly discuss it regularly.  No one spoke out against the leaders (however, it wasn't hard to tell how they felt about the new policy), but all the comments favored the right of gay couples to marry and most all seemed to nod in agreement (of course some may have been afraid to speak up or disagree).  

I thought this was revealing as I cannot imagine a group of older adults discussing this openly at church.  I've heard it in private discussions, but not in an open group setting.

Sadly, I've heard similar things about the YSA ward in my stake.

 

[Gray]

12 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

Interesting stuff.  I also think it's interesting that Jana Riess is speaking on the issue of "leaving behind organized religion," since she has publicly advocated doing just that.

I recognize that activity in the Church can be a burden on a busy person's life and schedule.  But then, so are other important things, like being married, having and raising children, exercising, eating healthy, and so on.  And yet I don't think any reasonable LDS person would endorse the deliberate decision to abandon these activities, to take a long-term sabbatical from one's obligations to their spouse, children, body, and so on.  Over and above the violation of sacred covenants that would be caused by abdicating such responsibilities, doing so just doesn't make sense.  There are all sorts of ways to manage one's responsibilities toward family, health, etc. without utterly abandoning those responsibilities.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

My understanding is that all churches are losing millennials. 

[salgare]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

I am 37, there were 7 guys in my priests quorum, 3 of us served missions, 2 of us are active out of the 7. Besides guys my age ditching the church is guys who attend church but aren't interested and go for their wives and kids

Yes NOM is still strong and growing.

[ALarson]

33 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Sadly, I've heard similar things about the YSA ward in my stake.

Yes, same in our surrounding stakes (it's definitely not just happening in my stake alone).

I do think it's great that these young people feel they can more openly discuss some of the issues they are having (even in a group setting while at church).  I wish adults felt as comfortable doing this, but that is slowly (very slowly) changing too.

. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by ALarson

[salgare]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

If the stats are accurate, I'm not convinced it's all the fault of the 'Millennials'. We lost an entire generation of YSAs in our stake because we moved away from the clear guidelines in the handbook regarding Aaronic Priesthood quorums and Young Women classes. As soon as we got back on track in our ward, we stopped losing most of our young people. Are our classes and quorums functioning the way they should be, led by engaged youth presidencies and merely advised by adults? Are Duty to God and Personal Progress taken seriously and implemented in all we do? Etc.?

I fear that if we think this is all inevitable because, well, Millennials ... then we won't see what we could be doing better/differently.

Yes, indoctrination is key to holding onto the upcoming generations.  Unfortunately with the old ways are not working so well anymore with the advancements of communications devices to youth to adulthood.

[salgare]

10 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Which is evidence that those people where not serious about the religion they were involved with.  For LDS it is like "yeah I believe the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Church is true....Oh wait, the Church is getting involved in politics?  That is it!! I am done"   If one believes the doctrines of the Church, they don't blow their eternal salvation and exaltation promises over more trivial things. 

Overall I think this could be good for religion.  A healthy religion is not based on how many people are part of it but how committed those that are in it are.  Just as a 400 pound man has to lose 45% of his weight to become healthy, perhaps some religions have to lose 45-50% of the people to become healthy.  Religions have to lose some fat and in the process will gain more muscle.

In Mormonanism, do you believe the remaining 50-60% are more orthodox than those leaving?

[salgare]

10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't really have a lot of compassion or regret over this issue.  We have doctrine and teachings that the Church cannot, must not, ever retreat from at any time.  If individuals will leave over these doctrines and teachings then so be it.  It has always been so since the beginning of God's dealings with humanity.  Some can hold to the rod and others will feel the sting of rebuke from those in the big house.  Others still will get caught up in regrets and other influences that cause them to release their hold of the iron rod and end up walking in darkness.

Except for Polygamy and Adam-God of course

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, salgare said:

Yes, indoctrination is key to holding onto the upcoming generations.  Unfortunately with the old ways are not working so well anymore with the advancements of communications devices to youth to adulthood.

I heard something shocking (even for me  ), just a couple of days ago.  I know this is anecdotal, and I can only quote what was told to me.  

My sister is the RS president in one of the wards in a stake near me.  We went out to dinner with them, and she told me that another missionary in their ward had just returned home early from his mission about a month ago.  He has not been to church since he returned home and has gone to live with his Mother who is not a member of the church.

My sister told me that he is the 7th missionary to return home early in their ward over the past 2 years.  I questioned her and asked if she was certain and she said, "Yes, I know each family personally".  She said that none of them have gone back out to finish their missions and that only 1 of them still comes to church (and only occasionally).  She did say that one good thing about this is that ward members are reacting better to missionaries coming home early and have reached out to each one of these missionaries who have come home.

We've had more come home early in our stake too, but not anywhere near that number from only one ward (maybe total in our entire stake).

[rockpond]

10 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Which is evidence that those people where not serious about the religion they were involved with.  For LDS it is like "yeah I believe the Book of Mormon is true, Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Church is true....Oh wait, the Church is getting involved in politics?  That is it!! I am done"   If one believes the doctrines of the Church, they don't blow their eternal salvation and exaltation promises over more trivial things. 

It might be useful for you to consider that it's possible to believe the doctrines without necessarily believing that the institutional church still has control over their eternal salvation and exaltation.  I imagine you'll doubt and debate this but I'm not going to derail with that... there are people who believe that way.  I'm just putting it out there as added perspective to the point you made above.

[salgare]

7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

You can't force them to come back.

A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  Taking a close look at what is causing them to leave in the first place might help.  But the re-entrenchment advocates seem to out weight the progressive ones.  

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I heard something shocking (even for me  ), just a couple of days ago.  I know this is anecdotal, and I can only quote what was told to me.  

My sister is the RS president in one of the wards in a stake near me.  We went out to dinner with them, and she told me that another missionary in their ward had just returned home early from his mission about a month ago.  He has not been to church since he returned home and has gone to live with his Mother who is not a member of the church.

My sister told me that he is the 7th missionary to return home early in their ward over the past 2 years.  I questioned her and asked if she was certain and she said, "Yes, I know each family personally".  She said that none of them have gone back out to finish their missions and that only 1 of them still comes to church (and only occasionally).  She did say that one good thing about this is that ward members are reacting better to missionaries coming home early and have reached out to each one of these missionaries who have come home.

We've had more come home early in our stake too, but not anywhere near that number from only one ward (maybe total in our entire stake).

Within just the past month we've had two missionaries who were serving in our ward both leave the mission early and go home.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Within just the past month we've had two missionaries who were serving in our ward both leave the mission early and go home.

I do wonder if sending them out at a younger age is backfiring.  Most that I am personally aware of, are those who left right out of high school.  (6 out of the 7 that my sister told me about had gone out at the lower age too.)

Edited April 14, 2016 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

25 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I heard something shocking (even for me  ), just a couple of days ago.  I know this is anecdotal, and I can only quote what was told to me.  

My sister is the RS president in one of the wards in a stake near me.  We went out to dinner with them, and she told me that another missionary in their ward had just returned home early from his mission about a month ago.  He has not been to church since he returned home and has gone to live with his Mother who is not a member of the church.

My sister told me that he is the 7th missionary to return home early in their ward over the past 2 years.  I questioned her and asked if she was certain and she said, "Yes, I know each family personally".  She said that none of them have gone back out to finish their missions and that only 1 of them still comes to church (and only occasionally).  She did say that one good thing about this is that ward members are reacting better to missionaries coming home early and have reached out to each one of these missionaries who have come home.

We've had more come home early in our stake too, but not anywhere near that number from only one ward (maybe total in our entire stake).

Are you both from Utah?  Because in my ward, I think I can count on one hand how many return from their missions not due to health.  Actually come to think of it, I can only remember one in 20 years.  But I'm not in the know a lot either and my ward/stake is exceptional, at least we've been told that.  So just curious if it's outside the Mormon belt that may have higher rates of missionaries going home.

[bsjkki]

I personally know of 5 that have come home early in the last two years.  I talked with a young man who had recently returned from his mission.  He served the whole two years but he expressed he would not have made it if he had been in Brazil the whole time. He had Visa issues and was in California for a year.   He told me that of the latest group of newbie elders, only 6 of 12 stayed longer than 3 months.

[Duncan]

In my ward since almost exactley 3 years ago, 12 have returned home early, who served here. Granted some were for medical reasons, a sister recently broke her ankle and one or two others-but of those who went home i'd d say about 9 are active. The saddest, saddest thing that bothers me still is an elder who served here and he was in our ward for 9 months and he completed his mission, he experienced so much junk while he was out it's crazy. He was the best elder, just a great guy, super nice and everybody loved him.Anyways, he went home and within maybe 3 months he was living with his girlfriend and WOW stuff and all kinds of things and he hasn't even been home a year yet. So, he isn't active but maybe one day

[HappyJackWagon]

10 hours ago, ttribe said:

 

So much for the whole leaving the ninety and nine in search of the one who was lost, right?  I mean, really, just cull the heard and all is well in Zion again.

Lovely sentiments.

Quote

Stormrider had said- I don't really have a lot of compassion or regret over this issue.

I agree TTribe- It's a terrible attitude IF the church is God's one and only true church. If it's not, then the "love it or leave it" philosophy works just fine. But again, IF this is the true church, every loss should be a tragedy. If individuals or the church in general are comfortable with people leaving, and they have no compassion or regret over it, then they are either doing religion wrong or they don't believe the church is the only path back to God.

[JulieM]

We have had 3 missionaries come home early in our ward just these past few months.  All went out too young, or at least that's how some feel.

One just could not "live" without their cellphone or video games (I know his mother and she's heartbroken he's home and he refuses to come to church now  ).

The other two were exposed to information about the church (by other elders!) that they did not know about before they left.  So, they felt they couldn't teach what they no longer believed in. Neither of these attends church anymore either (yet).  

Our ward has really reached out to them too.

[JulieM]

I also know of many in my area who finished their missions but have stopped attending since returning home.  

(Tried to edit and add that but couldn't to my post above for some reason.)

[consiglieri]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

I recognize that activity in the Church can be a burden on a busy person's life and schedule.  But then, so are other important things, like being married, having and raising children, exercising, eating healthy, and so on.  And yet I don't think any reasonable LDS person would endorse the deliberate decision to abandon these activities, to take a long-term sabbatical from one's obligations to their spouse, children, body, and so on.  Over and above the violation of sacred covenants that would be caused by abdicating such responsibilities, doing so just doesn't make sense.  There are all sorts of ways to manage one's responsibilities toward family, health, etc. without utterly abandoning those responsibilities.

 

A few comments:

1. Activity in the Church includes many, many hours of time wasted in meetings with no discernible purpose other than to check a box at the end.  The vast majority of these meetings accomplish very little if anything, and I have often found myself with the mental image of being a hamster on the hamster-wheel, running frenetically with the belief I am going somewhere but really just going around and around in a circle.

2. I find problematic your equation of Church responsibilities with family responsibilities, saying that to abandon one makes as much sense as abandoning the other.  Church meetings and callings typically take us away from our families.  So you can take your choice of spinning your wheels at meaningless Church meetings or spending time with your family actually doing constructive and important things. 

3. The choice between the two should be obvious, but no, the Church demands our attendance at all meetings that we are "supposed" to be at in order to show our loyalty to the Church, and through the Church, to God.  So attending meetings becomes equated with loyalty to God. 

4. Equating attendance at meetings (or Church "activity") with "sacred covenants" that we violate if we choose to take a break and be with our family is, in a nutshell, at the heart of what is wrong with the current LDS Church . . . and one of the reasons I think people are leaving.  I do not recall covenanting to waste my life in busywork at meaningless Church meetings while my family languishes.

5. Ultimately, this is about how the Church expects members to place loyalty to the Church above loyalty to family.  I know that over and over again, Church leaders have said the opposite, but when the rubber hits the road, the Church is supposed to be put first.  Over spouse and over family.  Which is one of the reasons the "milk-strippings" story is told over and over again.  If there is a conflict between supporting your wife and supporting the Church, whom should you support?  Why, the Church, of course.

[HappyJackWagon]

53 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I heard something shocking (even for me  ), just a couple of days ago.  I know this is anecdotal, and I can only quote what was told to me.  

My sister is the RS president in one of the wards in a stake near me.  We went out to dinner with them, and she told me that another missionary in their ward had just returned home early from his mission about a month ago.  He has not been to church since he returned home and has gone to live with his Mother who is not a member of the church.

My sister told me that he is the 7th missionary to return home early in their ward over the past 2 years.  I questioned her and asked if she was certain and she said, "Yes, I know each family personally".  She said that none of them have gone back out to finish their missions and that only 1 of them still comes to church (and only occasionally).  She did say that one good thing about this is that ward members are reacting better to missionaries coming home early and have reached out to each one of these missionaries who have come home.

We've had more come home early in our stake too, but not anywhere near that number from only one ward (maybe total in our entire stake).

I don't know the numbers for our entire stake but for the two wards that share our building, we've had 6 missionaries return home early in the past 18 months out of 14 that have gone out. That's a higher percentage than I would expect to see more generally but none have returned to their missions. All seem to still be attending actively. 2 returned for minor medical issues they knew about and were managing before they left. I'm wondering if missionaries are being sent home more quickly for medical if it appears they will slow down their companions and the work.

Something is broken in the missionary program.

[consiglieri]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't know the numbers for our entire stake but for the two wards that share our building, we've had 6 missionaries return home early in the past 18 months out of 14 that have gone out. That's a higher percentage than I would expect to see more generally but none have returned to their missions. All seem to still be attending actively. 2 returned for minor medical issues they knew about and were managing before they left. I'm wondering if missionaries are being sent home more quickly for medical if it appears they will slow down their companions and the work.

Something is broken in the missionary program.

The reportedly high rate of missionaries coming home early and/or going inactive is an unfortunate byproduct of lowering the missionary age.

Of course, the irony is that the lowering of the missionary age was done in order to stem the high rate of youth going inactive before serving their missions.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't know the numbers for our entire stake but for the two wards that share our building, we've had 6 missionaries return home early in the past 18 months out of 14 that have gone out. That's a higher percentage than I would expect to see more generally but none have returned to their missions. All seem to still be attending actively. 2 returned for minor medical issues they knew about and were managing before they left. I'm wondering if missionaries are being sent home more quickly for medical if it appears they will slow down their companions and the work.

Something is broken in the missionary program.

Makes you wonder.  

[HappyJackWagon]

14 hours ago, smac97 said:

I recognize that activity in the Church can be a burden on a busy person's life and schedule.  But then, so are other important things, like being married, having and raising children, exercising, eating healthy, and so on.  And yet I don't think any reasonable LDS person would endorse the deliberate decision to abandon these activities, to take a long-term sabbatical from one's obligations to their spouse, children, body, and so on.  Over and above the violation of sacred covenants that would be caused by abdicating such responsibilities, doing so just doesn't make sense.  There are all sorts of ways to manage one's responsibilities toward family, health, etc. without utterly abandoning those responsibilities.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

In my experience people stop attending because the value they get from church isn't worth the cost. It's not so much about the burden of meetings or a busy schedule as much as a change in beliefs.

So I ask myself why so many people are shifting paradigms or belief systems. I think the answer is similar for millenials as well as other generations. The difference often is that millenials haven't invested as much as others so they are more open to considering alternatives.

 

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

A few comments:

1. Activity in the Church includes many, many hours of time wasted in meetings with no discernible purpose other than to check a box at the end.  The vast majority of these meetings accomplish very little if anything, and I have often found myself with the mental image of being a hamster on the hamster-wheel, running frenetically with the belief I am going somewhere but really just going around and around in a circle.

2. I find problematic your equation of Church responsibilities with family responsibilities, saying that to abandon one makes as much sense as abandoning the other.  Church meetings and callings typically take us away from our families.  So you can take your choice of spinning your wheels at meaningless Church meetings or spending time with your family actually doing constructive and important things. 

3. The choice between the two should be obvious, but no, the Church demands our attendance at all meetings that we are "supposed" to be at in order to show our loyalty to the Church, and through the Church, to God.  So attending meetings becomes equated with loyalty to God. 

4. Equating attendance at meetings (or Church "activity") with "sacred covenants" that we violate if we choose to take a break and be with our family is, in a nutshell, at the heart of what is wrong with the current LDS Church . . . and one of the reasons I think people are leaving.  I do not recall covenanting to waste my life in busywork at meaningless Church meetings while my family languishes.

5. Ultimately, this is about how the Church expects members to place loyalty to the Church above loyalty to family.  I know that over and over again, Church leaders have said the opposite, but when the rubber hits the road, the Church is supposed to be put first.  Over spouse and over family.  Which is one of the reasons the "milk-strippings" story is told over and over again.  If there is a conflict between supporting your wife and supporting the Church, whom should you support?  Why, the Church, of course.

I largely agree with you. Our area is getting a Temple, it's been announced but hasn't been approved yet but it's stake conference on sunday so maybe?! But Next month they are having a special priesthood leadership with an Apostle and 2 other brethren. I hope things change in people or practice otherwise it's a waste of time for them to come all this way if we don't practice or change anything. I remember vividly Elder Bradley Foster of the 70 coming here for stake conference a few years ago and he gave us all training on ward council mtgs and he showed us what was good and what wasn't good and guess what happened the next week in our ward council? nothing, it was as if Elder Foster hadn't even been here, we tried to change things but got nowhere with it.