The Church is Losing Millennials?

[carbon dioxide]

15 hours ago, salgare said:

Yes, indoctrination is key to holding onto the upcoming generations.  Unfortunately with the old ways are not working so well anymore with the advancements of communications devices to youth to adulthood.

Advances in communication making people more lazy and out of touch by the day.  I think Sam Wankier had it right in his letter to the Salt Lake Trib http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3769781-155/letter-look-up-from-your-screens

I'm a teenager, and even I'm worried. Smart phones are one of the most time-consuming things in the world. They have taught human society to become lazy and dumb.

People are so used to having their phones all the time that I believe if we were to destroy them all, the human race would not survive — at least not those under 25!

We are so used to being able to send our friends/parents a quick text to ask where they are. If that weren't available, we'd fall into complete panic. Cell phones are allowing people to tune out of the world, missing out on life experiences — whether they be social, physical or mental

If phones were suddenly removed from the world, people would struggle to live with their own thoughts. We are so used to pulling that glowing screen from our pocket when we have a little piece of time on our hands.

If society cut down on cellphone usage, we could get more out of the short life we have, actually interacting with others. People should look up from the little screens in their pockets and start learning from the real world.

If the Generation that fought WW2 is called the Greatest Generation, I think the kids the Millennials have could likely become the Useless Generation

 

[Rivers]

31 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Remember in that parable that the lost sheep was simply lost and is ready to come back to the fold when found.   If one of the sheep purposely decides to run away, they are not lost.  They don't want to be a part of the fold. 

A Sheperd can't force sheep back to the fold. That's what a sheep herder does. 

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Advances in communication making people more lazy and out of touch by the day.  I think Sam Wankier had it right in his letter to the Salt Lake Trib http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3769781-155/letter-look-up-from-your-screens

I'm a teenager, and even I'm worried. Smart phones are one of the most time-consuming things in the world. They have taught human society to become lazy and dumb.

People are so used to having their phones all the time that I believe if we were to destroy them all, the human race would not survive — at least not those under 25!

We are so used to being able to send our friends/parents a quick text to ask where they are. If that weren't available, we'd fall into complete panic. Cell phones are allowing people to tune out of the world, missing out on life experiences — whether they be social, physical or mental

If phones were suddenly removed from the world, people would struggle to live with their own thoughts. We are so used to pulling that glowing screen from our pocket when we have a little piece of time on our hands.

If society cut down on cellphone usage, we could get more out of the short life we have, actually interacting with others. People should look up from the little screens in their pockets and start learning from the real world.

If the Generation that fought WW2 is called the Greatest Generation, I think the kids the Millennials have could likely become the Useless Generation

 

They said the same thing about radio, television, cell phones, computers, video game consoles, and the like. But this time.........

In fact it goes back even further:

So really cheap postage killed us off a long time ago. There was nothing left for the smartphones.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, salgare said:

Did those standards/policies since drop?

The standards are still there. I am not sure how well they are implemented. I can say that as a ward missionary I am impressed with the missionaries out now. They are young stupid kids like I was when I was out but on the whole they have a deeper spirituality and commitment then were common in my days as a full-time missionary.

[stemelbow]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The standards are still there. I am not sure how well they are implemented. I can say that as a ward missionary I am impressed with the missionaries out now. They are young stupid kids like I was when I was out but on the whole they have a deeper spirituality and commitment then were common in my days as a full-time missionary.

Missionaries are taught to sale themselves.  if members and non members can be impressed with the missionary him/herself then conversion is more likely.   They put on a good show for member and non member a like, thus giving the impression they are more spiritual and committed then everyone else.  It's always been that way.  I just think you've forgotten and your perspective is different.  I think we'd find that more missionaries these days are going to leave the Church than the missionaries of your era. 

[salgare]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Remember in that parable that the lost sheep was simply lost and is ready to come back to the fold when found.   If one of the sheep purposely decides to run away, they are not lost.  They don't want to be a part of the fold. 

Oh you mean like the prodigal son ... yea right thanks for the new definition

[salgare]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The standards are still there. I am not sure how well they are implemented. I can say that as a ward missionary I am impressed with the missionaries out now. They are young stupid kids like I was when I was out but on the whole they have a deeper spirituality and commitment then were common in my days as a full-time missionary.

The youth today are super impressive that's for sure.  Thanks Nehor

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Missionaries are taught to sale themselves.  if members and non members can be impressed with the missionary him/herself then conversion is more likely.   They put on a good show for member and non member a like, thus giving the impression they are more spiritual and committed then everyone else.  It's always been that way.  I just think you've forgotten and your perspective is different.  I think we'd find that more missionaries these days are going to leave the Church than the missionaries of your era. 

It has not always been that way.  I served a mission and selling ourselves was never ever talked about, and though i'm sure that there were some missionaries who pretended to be better than they were to look good, I can only think of one missionary i served around who fit that description.  He was a nob and everyone saw him for what he was so I don't think it helped him any.

[salgare]

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think we'd find that more missionaries these days are going to leave the Church than the missionaries of your era. 

And these numbers have been significant for some time.  Since the change in age we hear a lot about early returns and more acceptance and understanding in their home wards as they return.  Other youth observing this trend, that maybe they can survive not going or coming home early will increase these numbers.

 

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It has not always been that way.  I served a mission and selling ourselves was never ever talked about, and though i'm sure that there were some missionaries who pretended to be better than they were to look good, I can only think of one missionary i served around who fit that description.  He was a nob and everyone saw him for what he was so I don't think it helped him any.

What?  I don't know what you mean.  Of course no one is told to sale themselves, but I can't imagine missionary service without that unspoken agenda.  That's all it was--go out and try to impress people.  Set them up by building relationships with them.  Get members to trust you by teaching them, and making them feel like you trustworthy, spiritual, and can impress others.  I don't know how that was missed by anyone.

[bluebell]

19 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But those are merely details in a system that hasn't changed. A change in curriculum is to be expected every few years. Time with leaders is a normal practice/expectation for most people. It would be very strange if that didn't happen. The church is merely trying to play a little catch up but it's very little and very late.

 

I disagree.  As i said before, none of this was happening when i was a 'youth'.  

The curriculum change is not just a regular one-they completely overhauled not just the lessons but also how they were to be taught and how the youth were to interact with them).  Having interactive meetings with apostles ('face-to-face' meetings) weren't even possible when i was a kid (the internet was barely a thing) so that was not a normal practice or expectation either.  

Quote

The conservative structure of church services feels antiquated to many. They may long to connect with God but are bored to death by organ music and hymns written 150 years ago. Nothing modern in any way as if modern is evil. They go to 3 hours of meetings, week in...week out. They've done that their entire lives. Nothing has ever changed except for minor details. They want to connect with God but they are told there is only one way and that way bores them. It doesn't inspire them so they don't feel connected to God...so they leave, not just the church but religion in general because they come to believe connection to God isn't even possible. From their experience they've tried everything they've been told should connect them but it doesn't work.

Most of these kids are about 20 years old and they only have about 15 years worth of memories from church.  This is not a problem of 'no change for 150 years'.  If you are right, it's a problem of 'no change for 10-15 years' and as i said before, if youth need stuff to change every 10-15 years so they don't get bored, then that's a problem that has nothing to do with the church.   

As a side note, given the church's presence online and their electronic library, etc. etc. I can't take your accusation of 'as if modern is evil' very seriously.  My 14 year old get's lessons from iPads more often than not, and all of his scriptures are on his cell phone.  The Young men have their own private Facebook page.  Any accusation that the church shuns modernity is kind of laughable.  

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, salgare said:

And these numbers have been significant for some time.  Since the change in age we hear a lot about early returns and more acceptance and understanding in their home wards as they return.  Other youth observing this trend, that maybe they can survive not going or coming home early will increase these numbers.

 

Probably so. 

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What?  I don't know what you mean.  Of course no one is told to sale themselves, but I can't imagine missionary service without that unspoken agenda.  That's all it was--go out and try to impress people.  Set them up by building relationships with them.  Get members to trust you by teaching them, and making them feel like you trustworthy, spiritual, and can impress others.  I don't know how that was missed by anyone.

Oh my.  The church wants its missionaries to be good people who are worthy of trust and who represent Christ with conviction and it teaches them that!  How underhanded! How sneaky!  If only the world knew!  

Seriously, being taught to sell yourself and being taught that you need to be trustworthy and a good person are not the same thing.   If they are, then every good parent in the world can be accused of teaching their kids to 'sell themselves'.  I don't know how the difference between the two was missed by anyone.

[HappyJackWagon]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I disagree.  As i said before, none of this was happening when i was a 'youth'.  

The curriculum change is not just a regular one-they completely overhauled not just the lessons but also how they were to be taught and how the youth were to interact with them).  Having interactive meetings with apostles ('face-to-face' meetings) weren't even possible when i was a kid (the internet was barely a thing) so that was not a normal practice or expectation either.  

Most of these kids are about 20 years old and they only have about 15 years worth of memories from church.  This is not a problem of 'no change for 150 years'.  If you are right, it's a problem of 'no change for 10-15 years' and as i said before, if youth need stuff to change every 10-15 years so they don't get bored, then that's a problem that has nothing to do with the church.   

As a side note, given the church's presence online and their electronic library, etc. etc. I can't take your accusation of 'as if modern is evil' very seriously.  My 14 year old get's lessons from iPads more often than not, and all of his scriptures are on his cell phone.  The Young men have their own private Facebook page.  Any accusation that the church shuns modernity is kind of laughable.  

The technologies may change but the system is the same. Yes there are new videos but that's not a change. There have been flannel boards and filmstrips for decades. The technology is just different. Also regarding the face-to-face meetings now- yes technology makes that possible. However, in the past, when the church was smaller, members often had more access to church leaders. By using the new technologies the church is trying to return to what used to be, not fundamentally changing the structure of the church.

The millennial generation currently goes to age 35 I believe. So you have adults with families who are millenials and have more experience than just the 20 year olds you suggest. They have only known the church block system, but even before that change, the meetings were essentially the same 100 years ago as they are now. Sacrament meetings really haven't changed much. Is that because our system of worship is perfect and there is no need for update, or is it because of culture and tradition?

Regarding the modern issue- again, the church is all for people using modern technologies in ways the church provides. This is good but not a fundamental change. In years past they provided films and magazine and music and they continue to provide it, only in different ways. But we also must contrast the way the church encourages use of their approved product with modern technologies, and how they treat modern technology in other ways. Leaders consistently preach against the internet/google for finding answers and doing research.

Don't get me wrong. The church is doing some good things that is keeping it from falling even farther behind. But these are not structural shifts. They are changes in technology which always occur.

Edited April 15, 2016 by HappyJackWagon

[Storm Rider]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Oh my.  The church wants its missionaries to be good people who are worthy of trust and who represent Christ with conviction and it teaches them that!  How underhanded! How sneaky!  If only the world knew!  

Seriously, being taught to sell yourself and being taught that you need to be trustworthy and a good person are not the same thing.   If they are, then every good parent in the world can be accused of teaching their kids to 'sell themselves'.  I don't know how the difference between the two was missed by anyone.

Blue, some see through a glass darkly while others see through mud and then wonder why all they see is mud.  Their eyes are always focused on the most negative, the most egregious perception possible and then think that is the world.  They have forgotten to look up and actually see that the entire problem is their own perception.  Reality has left them behind.  

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The technologies may change but the system is the same. Yes there are new videos but that's not a change. There have been flannel boards and filmstrips for decades. The technology is just different. Also regarding the face-to-face meetings now- yes technology makes that possible. However, in the past, when the church was smaller, members often had more access to church leaders. By using the new technologies the church is trying to return to what used to be, not fundamentally changing the structure of the church.

I agree in that the structure of the church has not changed.  I'm sorry if i gave the impression that that's what I was saying.  What I see as changing is the way the church relates to the youth and how they approach them.  I know i'm barely out of the millennial generation apparently (by about 5 years as it's defined as 18-34) but as i said, it's much different now than it was when i was a youth.

Quote

The millennial generation currently goes to age 35 I believe. So you have adults with families who are millenials and have more experience than just the 20 year olds you suggest. They have only known the church block system, but even before that change, the meetings were essentially the same 100 years ago as they are now. Sacrament meetings really haven't changed much. Is that because our system of worship is perfect and there is no need for update, or is it because of culture and tradition?

I don't think it's the adults with kids that the church is losing though.  It's the millennial in their 20s generally, so that's the group i'm specifically addressing.

Quote

Regarding the modern issue- again, the church is all for people using modern technologies in ways the church provides. This is good but not a fundamental change. In years past they provided films and magazine and music and they continue to provide it, only in different ways. But we also must contrast the way the church encourages use of their approved product with modern technologies, and how they treat modern technology in other ways. Leaders consistently preach against the internet/google for finding answers and doing research.

I've never heard a church leader say not to do research on the internet.  I could have missed it of course and i'm not saying they haven't done so. I have heard them preach against relying on google to find answers to spiritual questions.  Seems pretty obvious that that is really really good advice.

 

[california boy]

20 hours ago, why me said:

Young lds need to see their mormonism as an identity. If they are not proud of their identity they will not make it. We need to change the conversation from being mormon and what is required to what is a mormon identity and what does this require. In other words, young people need to be proud to be mormon: lifestyle, culrure, way of life etc. They need to discuss what it means to be mormon and how a mormon identity is a plus and not a minus.

I think you have hit on one of the major issues.  When young members of the church are with their friends, and the church comes up, do you think they are proud to be Mormon?  There was a time in the not to distant past when the Mormon church was thought of highly as a family strong church,  good people and a faith people seriously considered raising their families in.  When I tell people I meet, that I used to be Mormon, the praises to the church are gone.  In its place are not too kind of words.  Those that would have defended the church in the past from negative comments are now silent.

If you only hang around members of the church, then you might be thinking that nothing has changed over the past decade.  Unfortunately you are wrong.  And the youth of the church know that.  Will the church ever get that positive image back?  The missionaries can knock on all the doors they want.  But if people see the church as not a good influence for them and their children, there is not going to be much of an opportunity to teach the message.  

I know many of you will easily dismiss my comments, but Why Me is right.  This is a big issue amongst the youth.  Maybe I shouldn't have related to you what I have noticed because I know many will take this personally.  It certainly is easy to write off my views as being too radical for the TBM.  But in this instance, I am only telling you what I see.  There is a big difference between what people tell you when they know you are Mormon and when they think you are one of them.  

[mtomm]

34 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you have hit on one of the major issues.  When young members of the church are with their friends, and the church comes up, do you think they are proud to be Mormon?  There was a time in the not to distant past when the Mormon church was thought of highly as a family strong church,  good people and a faith people seriously considered raising their families in.  When I tell people I meet, that I used to be Mormon, the praises to the church are gone.  In its place are not too kind of words.  Those that would have defended the church in the past from negative comments are now silent.

If you only hang around members of the church, then you might be thinking that nothing has changed over the past decade.  Unfortunately you are wrong.  And the youth of the church know that.  Will the church ever get that positive image back?  The missionaries can knock on all the doors they want.  But if people see the church as not a good influence for them and their children, there is not going to be much of an opportunity to teach the message.  

I know many of you will easily dismiss my comments, but Why Me is right.  This is a big issue amongst the youth.  Maybe I shouldn't have related to you what I have noticed because I know many will take this personally.  It certainly is easy to write off my views as being too radical for the TBM.  But in this instance, I am only telling you what I see.  There is a big difference between what people tell you when they know you are Mormon and when they think you are one of them.  

Yep. This!  I know my children are certainly concerned about others perceptions of them unlike me and my proudly held Mormon label when I was their age.  And more pointedly my convert my DIL is highly aware of it. 

Edited April 15, 2016 by mtomm

[ttribe]

10 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Remember in that parable that the lost sheep was simply lost and is ready to come back to the fold when found.   If one of the sheep purposely decides to run away, they are not lost.  They don't want to be a part of the fold. 

Seems like a very weak rationalization for expressing a "good riddance" sentiment.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think you have hit on one of the major issues.  When young members of the church are with their friends, and the church comes up, do you think they are proud to be Mormon?  There was a time in the not to distant past when the Mormon church was thought of highly as a family strong church,  good people and a faith people seriously considered raising their families in.  When I tell people I meet, that I used to be Mormon, the praises to the church are gone.  In its place are not too kind of words.  Those that would have defended the church in the past from negative comments are now silent.

If you only hang around members of the church, then you might be thinking that nothing has changed over the past decade.  Unfortunately you are wrong.  And the youth of the church know that.  Will the church ever get that positive image back?  The missionaries can knock on all the doors they want.  But if people see the church as not a good influence for them and their children, there is not going to be much of an opportunity to teach the message.  

I know many of you will easily dismiss my comments, but Why Me is right.  This is a big issue amongst the youth.  Maybe I shouldn't have related to you what I have noticed because I know many will take this personally.  It certainly is easy to write off my views as being too radical for the TBM.  But in this instance, I am only telling you what I see.  There is a big difference between what people tell you when they know you are Mormon and when they think you are one of them.  

I think you are right.

At no other time in history have young people been so bombarded with other people's opinions of everything and everyone.  When someone they find important or relevant to their life disagrees with something they believe in, our youth know it.  Their peers know it too and that makes it even easier for their peers to feel like they have the moral high ground because they have celebrity opinion on their side.

It's hard for adults to stay true to beliefs when faced with peer pressure. Of course it's going to be even harder for kids to be ok with society's negative judgement.  

It's not just being a minority anymore, it's who's in the vocal majority that is harder to deal with than it used to be I think. 

 

[consiglieri]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

It's hard for adults to stay true to beliefs when faced with peer pressure. 

 

I am sure we would both agree that one should not change beliefs based solely on peer pressure.

But did you not say recently in another thread that if Joseph Smith's beliefs regarding God had not evolved over time, that would be a "red flag"?

In other words, is it always a virtue to "stay true to beliefs"?

Or can staying true to beliefs sometimes be a "red flag" of its own?

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Oh my.  The church wants its missionaries to be good people who are worthy of trust and who represent Christ with conviction and it teaches them that!  How underhanded! How sneaky!  If only the world knew!  

Seriously, being taught to sell yourself and being taught that you need to be trustworthy and a good person are not the same thing.   If they are, then every good parent in the world can be accused of teaching their kids to 'sell themselves'.  I don't know how the difference between the two was missed by anyone.

Not sure what you mean.  Did I say it was sneaky?  Did I say it was the same thing? 

I thought you challenged my point, but it turns out you agree and come back at me with sarcasm because you disagree with the way it was worded.  I don't think there's anyway to escape the reality.  Missionaries are no better or worse than they ever were, by and large. 

[halconero]

This is entirely anecdotal, but here in Calgary whatever loss the Church is experiencing with regards to Millennials should be contrasted against the dedication of those currently active. Throughout the Calgary Regional YSA (there are 7 YSA wards in the city of Calgary, with a population around 1,000,000 people) the percentage of Returned Missionaries, female and male, has never been so large in my experience. Currently, every YSA ward with an attendance of around 100-140 has between 15-20 temple ordinance workers operating from them. My ward alone supplies 15 temple workers, and we're one of the smaller wards with an average attendance of around 70. My Saturday Afternoon shift at the Calgary Temple has 20 YSA ordinance workers out of a shift of 60 workers.

Related to working in the temple are family history activities. The Calgary Temple keeps track of the percentage of ordinances preformed for family versus those on the temple file, and the difference is significant. Close to 65% of the names for whom ordinances are performed come from family, and that number is increasing due to some recently policy changes we've made regarding the ability of workers to do their own family names during their shift. Relevant to Millennials is the fact that YSA members are performing these ordinances for family members at a higher rate than the general Latter-day Saint population.

As far as missionary work goes, the amount of YSA posting on social media with regards to the Church is significant. In a roundabout way, I would say that because of the social issues which pervade the world today, many of the YSA are actually more compassionate, empathetic, understanding, and eloquent in how they interact with LGBTQ2+ individuals than previous generations were. They are able to share the Gospel in a compassionate manner, valiant in proselyting activities, yet with tolerance and love. 

These anecdotal reflections aren't specific to Calgary either, but has been my experience in the Vancouver and Toronto areas as well.

Is the Church losing Millennials? Most definitely. 

Yet I would argue that the future is bright for the Church with regards to its active Young Adults. They are vibrant, joyous, and more engaged with the Work of Perfecting the Saints, Redeeming the Dead, Gathering Israel, and Aiding the Poor and the Needy in a way I haven't witnessed among many previous generations (sorry old folks) either in my youth or into adulthood.

[Tacenda]

What do any of you think about the program installed in the Missionary program "Preach My Gospel"?  As awesome as it is, does this give missionaries more leeway to change their faith paradigms?  I know my husband did it the old fashion way, he memorized scripture and the lessons, showed the filmstrips etc.  Just thought today that this could have provided a path of more open and free thought.  I might just be talking gibberish, having never been a missionary.  

Currently I have a nephew that is going down a different path than he was once on.  He was a zealous missionary in the Tallahassee Florida mission.  He came home early with severe back pain.  His doctor at home gave the diagnosis that this occurred because of his strenuous bike riding while on his mission, I kid you not.  

My nephew went on to marrying a young gal in the temple, but a year later she left the marriage.  He was still very active and wholeheartedly believed shortly after.  But in the last year he moved away from his hometown, is now covered in tattoos on his arms, and seems to be changing as far as staying on the path.  That's all I'm going to say, because I don't live with him 24/7.  But my sister and brother in law I'm sure, are very concerned.  

How deep could have his testimony been, or it's still there, but he may look at it in a more nuanced way.  

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Missionaries are taught to sale themselves.  if members and non members can be impressed with the missionary him/herself then conversion is more likely.   They put on a good show for member and non member a like, thus giving the impression they are more spiritual and committed then everyone else.  It's always been that way.  I just think you've forgotten and your perspective is different.  I think we'd find that more missionaries these days are going to leave the Church than the missionaries of your era. 

Yeah, but I know the show business of missionary life. I lived it for years. Plus if you spend enough time with the missionaries (and I spend quite a bit) their defenses go down and you know them better then you do if you feed them once every month and get a spiritual thought and I stand by my assessment that elder now, speaking generally and not specifically, are better now then they were when I was out.