The Church is Losing Millennials?

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, halconero said:

Yeah, well...that's what happens when your cross-section comes from the YSA Alberta Confessions Page, Duncan.

A more wicked hive of villainy I have never witnessed.

Um, actually my "cross section" dates back to the 1980's....so....

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, you either don't read what I write or you have a standard, knee-jerk response for anyone that has the temerity to disagree with you and your opinions.  

Inclusion does not come from have five friends of color on Facebook or on Twitter.  Inclusion and tolerance comes from living with those that are not like you and working through a relationship.  A relationship is not obtained by watching Modern Family on television and supporting what you think is being inclusive.  This type of thinking is the result of being shallow and ignorant - ignorant in the sense of not knowing anything, or very little, about life.  

I would get off that high horse and realize that others may disagree and while still respecting you.  

I do agree with what you wrote except for the first line, but that is NOT what I asked, nor what millennials are having a problem with. You really didn't answer my question or their belief. You were responding to this post

19 hours ago, bsjkki said:

The millennialls care about diversity and are keenly aware of perceived injustice.  One millennial commenter I read said the church needed "MORE LOVE AND LESS FEAR'

And then you went on a tirade about how ignorant millennial are. Then you answer my question with a lecture to me without answering the question. Since you don't seem to read my posts, I will ask you the same question again. Do you think that the church needs more love and less fear. I ask this again because I personally think it is a very important question and do think it is a major reason if not the most important reason so many are leaving organized religion. And I think it is a valid question for millennials to ask for the reasons I listed in my original post   

So skip the self righteous lecture and answer the question I asked. (See two can play the insult the other guy card.  I personally don't think insults move the discussion forward)

 

[california boy]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I am for more love and less fear as long as the more love does not include accepting good as evil and evil as good. 

Tell us a little more about your statement. Do you think Christ tolerated adultery?  Probably not. But that didn't prevent Him from associating with them. Do you worry that if millennials have friends that sin they are not condemning sin enough?  Should they give up those friends?  I would be really interested in your perspective.  I think this is a very important issue that churches appear to be loosing given the sheer number of those walking away from organized religion. 

[Storm Rider]

28 minutes ago, california boy said:

I do agree with what you wrote except for the first line, but that is NOT what I asked, nor what millennials are having a problem with. You really didn't answer my question or their belief. You were responding to this post

And then you went on a tirade about how ignorant millennial are. Then you answer my question with a lecture to me without answering the question. Since you don't seem to read my posts, I will ask you the same question again. Do you think that the church needs more love and less fear. I ask this again because I personally think it is a very important question and do think it is a major reason if not the most important reason so many are leaving organized religion. And I think it is a valid question for millennials to ask for the reasons I listed in my original post   

So skip the self righteous lecture and answer the question I asked. (See two can play the insult the other guy card.  I personally don't think insults move the discussion forward)

 

I don't agree with the comment fear and love.  If find that to be such a canned accusation that it has no merit; it is like saying you are a racist.  There is no explanation, no facts - it is pure opinion.  Tell me how fear rules the Church or that love is hindered?  

[california boy]

18 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I don't agree with the comment fear and love.  If find that to be such a canned accusation that it has no merit; it is like saying you are a racist.  There is no explanation, no facts - it is pure opinion.  Tell me how fear rules the Church or that love is hindered?  

Thanks for answering the question. I disagree with you and really feel this is the core reason many, not just millennials are leaving organized religion. I listed some of the reasons previously. But obviously you think those are a non issue. Even when you are aware of many stating those reasons for walking away.  But hey, I realize I am not going to convince you. 

[Atheist Mormon]

On 4/14/2016 at 8:48 PM, smac97 said:

Here:

Interesting stuff.  I also think it's interesting that Jana Riess is speaking on the issue of "leaving behind organized religion," since she has publicly advocated doing just that.

I recognize that activity in the Church can be a burden on a busy person's life and schedule.  But then, so are other important things, like being married, having and raising children, exercising, eating healthy, and so on.  Thoughts?  Thanks, Smac

The difference is marriage, having kids is rewarding....One sees the immediate dividends of his/her labor. Whereas Organized Religion does not have any tangible rewards. Going to Church every sunday, prayers did not make any difference in my life one iota......

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

The difference is marriage, having kids is rewarding....One sees the immediate dividends of his/her labor. Whereas Organized Religion does not have any tangible rewards. Going to Church every sunday, prayers did not make any difference in my life one iota......

I'm guessing you are married and have kids, is that true?

Just want to understand where you're coming from before I comment.

[Atheist Mormon]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm guessing you are married and have kids, is that true?

Just want to understand where you're coming from before I comment.

Definitely I am married...I mean I love my kids but I'd never have kids if I had fifty other lives to repeat...But I enjoy them, even my ex wife, I don't know if I have a better genuine friend than her. The thing about Faith bothered me was that it was always one_way demand, no matter how much I invested/prayed it was never enough...

Here in my private life I can be successful beyond my dreams (drive RangeRovers ,live in Park City, ) I could never satisfy God/Jesus. I am not vindictive or anything but life is so much better knowing this is the only shot I got.....

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Definitely I am married...I mean I love my kids but I'd never have kids if I had fifty other lives to repeat...But I enjoy them, even my ex wife, I don't know if I have a better genuine friend than her. The thing about Faith bothered me was that it was always one_way demand, no matter how much I invested/prayed it was never enough...

Here in my private life I can be successful beyond my dreams (drive RangeRovers ,live in Park City, ) I could never satisfy God/Jesus. I am not vindictive or anything but life is so much better knowing this is the only shot I got.....

I hear ya.

The thing is, there are thousands of parents and spouses who desert their family every year because they sincerely feel like their kids aren't worth it the sacrifice. Kids are too much trouble, the relationship is all one sided, the mental and emotional cost is too high.

You and I know differently, but no matter how much we might tell those people that having children is rewarding, they can't see it from where they are.  They think we are crazy for sacrificing so much for so little in return.

To take any issue of morality out of the equation, the same can be said of the differences between those who choose not to have kids and those who feel like life would be inherently less without having them.

Believers and nonbelievers have similar problems of being able to see each other's point of view.  You made a statement of fact about the obviousness of rewards for parenting and obvious lack of rewards for church membership. 

It might be obvious to you, but that doesn't mean it's a valid perception for someone else.  The same goes for the flip side.

But hopefully the one thing we can all agree on is that easier doesn't equal better. "Because it's easy" is probably not a good way for anyone to make serious decisions.

Being easier might be a bonus of a choice, but its not a good measuring stick in and of itself.

 

Edited April 18, 2016 by bluebell

[Atheist Mormon]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I hear ya.

The thing is, there are thousands of parents and spouses who desert their family every year because they sincerely feel like their kids aren't worth it the sacrifice. Kids are too much trouble, the relationship is all one sided, the mental and emotional cost is too high.

You and I know differently, but no matter how much we might tell those people that having children is rewarding, they can't see it from where they are.  They think we are crazy for sacrificing so much for so little in return.

To take any issue of morality out of the equation, the same can be said of the differences between those who choose not to have kids and those who feel like life would be inherently less without having them.

Believers and nonbelievers have similar problems of being able to see each other's point of view.  You made a statement of fact about the obviousness of rewards for parenting and obvious lack of rewards for church membership. 

It might be obvious to you, but that doesn't mean it's a valid perception for someone else.  The same goes for the flip side.

 

Hard not to agree with you...Life is so short, by the time I saw the futility of this I was well over fifty, there was no time to lament.......

[rodheadlee]

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

First, be at peace.  There are many reasons why some people will reject Christ today - it is not the end of the world.  Allow the Spirit to work with them, allow them the freedom to reject the church without reproach or a response that they or the Church needs to be "fixed".  They need a time to mature and grow and when the Spirit moves them they will return to that which they know is true.  

We are human; we are so incredibly complex and yet so very simple.  There are such overwhelming forces being exerted upon each individual in life that it is amazing that so many succeed at anything.  I have heard children say their parents do not love them, were hateful to them, and punished them unmercifully.  I have heard children talk about the Church in the same way.  I have heard the same kind of things about how individuals feel toward God.  He is not there; he does not hear my prayers; he cannot exist because he doesn't respond like I think is best; look at all the horrible things that are done in the world - God cannot be real; I hurt and it is God's fault.

These are passing emotions that are ruling the individual's mind.  Allow God to touch their heart and let the Holy Spirit guide.  God has always been the captain of the ship even when we thought he was not there.

Our job is to just love each of them.  Let them be the way they choose and love them anyway.  We must live our lives in a way that allows them the freedom to live theirs without condoning their words or actions.  The words and actions are their personal choice just as our words and actions are our own.  When they ask, we answer.  If they are not asking they are not listening.  They will hurt themselves; sometimes deeply, terribly, but it is their path and they must walk it until they realize they had what they were looking for all along.  

This is a great post and I wish California Boy would read it and understand. I think he skipped over it. This is the way I live my life. I love all of my neighbors. It may be hard to believe because I come off as strict regarding doctrine.  It's not intentional, it's the way life is in social media communications. You can't hear my tone of voice nor see the smile on my face when I am speaking on this board. I am not taking selfies of this old crinkly face

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Thanks for answering the question. I disagree with you and really feel this is the core reason many, not just millennials are leaving organized religion. I listed some of the reasons previously. But obviously you think those are a non issue. Even when you are aware of many stating those reasons for walking away.  But hey, I realize I am not going to convince you. 

I think that millennials, as a group, painting with broad brush strokes, have a very shallow understanding of social relationships, society, and government.  There is a significant difference between someone who is an idealist and someone who has a limited grasp of of the topics they are discussing and/or being programmed to repeat trite, nice-sounding phrases.  

For example, it never fails to inform me about those young college students that talk incessantly about tolerance, equality, and inclusion and those same students are divided up by race in their respective student unions.  It is across the board - there are no, zero, fully integrated universities because the students themselves choose not to be integrated.  Yes, of course, they all like to talk about it and none of them are "it" by their own choice.  

Demanding changes in society is great when it is someone else that must change.  It is seldom a great thing when you have to look in the mirror and say, "I need to change" or "I am the problem".  

We have raised the most entitled, demanding, spoiled generation in the world.  They all seem to feel entitled to what they want - they never once begin to think about what is good for society; what is good for my community, or what is good for my nation.  I am not talking about popping off phrases, but actual thoughts that they have contemplated and understood the cost, both financial and societal, of an action.  

A good example - AND NOT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS OR HIJACK THE THREAD - socialism seems to be, at least in the minds of the young, such a novel good sounding idea.  The problem is they have not studied what a socialist society looks like over the long term.  They have not talked to people who have lived under it to find out the good and the bad.  They most they have done is consider all the good things - free college education and free medical care, unlimited unemployment benefits, a house for everyone, etc., etc., etc.  These things are good until we begin to consider how we pay for them.  When have we heard anyone talk about that?  Who wants to implement such plans?  It is seldom the small business owner that is scraping by, works more hours than they can count, and has not taken a vacation in recent memory.   

As I have gotten older I have gotten complacent and have taken a laissez faire attitude to most things - almost all things.  In many respects I am just tired.  I just try to live my life without the notice of government, political parties, church officials, and too many people in my community.  I appreciate my church family, my own family, my friends around the world because I have traveled extensively.  But I don't feel the need to be a radical, striving to change everyone else to meet my own concept of a better world. 

[Storm Rider]

38 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

This is a great post and I wish California Boy would read it and understand. I think he skipped over it. This is the way I live my life. I love all of my neighbors. It may be hard to believe because I come off as strict regarding doctrine.  It's not intentional, it's the way life is in social media communications. You can't hear my tone of voice nor see the smile on my face when I am speaking on this board. I am not taking selfies of this old crinkly face

You are kind and charitable.  The problem with what I said is that it is not confrontational and it does not rub others the wrong way.  Not really a lot to react to other than to ignore it and move on to knee-jerk responses, concerns, priorities, etc.  We all do it - Cal is not unique.  He is passionate about some things and tries to do the right thing - we just disagree about a few things. 

[california boy]

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

First, be at peace.  There are many reasons why some people will reject Christ today - it is not the end of the world.  Allow the Spirit to work with them, allow them the freedom to reject the church without reproach or a response that they or the Church needs to be "fixed".  They need a time to mature and grow and when the Spirit moves them they will return to that which they know is true.  

We are human; we are so incredibly complex and yet so very simple.  There are such overwhelming forces being exerted upon each individual in life that it is amazing that so many succeed at anything.  I have heard children say their parents do not love them, were hateful to them, and punished them unmercifully.  I have heard children talk about the Church in the same way.  I have heard the same kind of things about how individuals feel toward God.  He is not there; he does not hear my prayers; he cannot exist because he doesn't respond like I think is best; look at all the horrible things that are done in the world - God cannot be real; I hurt and it is God's fault.

These are passing emotions that are ruling the individual's mind.  Allow God to touch their heart and let the Holy Spirit guide.  God has always been the captain of the ship even when we thought he was not there.

Our job is to just love each of them.  Let them be the way they choose and love them anyway.  We must live our lives in a way that allows them the freedom to live theirs without condoning their words or actions.  The words and actions are their personal choice just as our words and actions are our own.  When they ask, we answer.  If they are not asking they are not listening.  They will hurt themselves; sometimes deeply, terribly, but it is their path and they must walk it until they realize they had what they were looking for all along.  

I did read this post.  Several times in fact.  I also think it is a great post.  Like you, I live my life in a very similar way.  While I don't always agree with the choices my children make, or my friends for that matter,  my relationship with them remains the same.  I am sure they don't agree with all of the choices I have made either.  But we are not responsible for another's exaltation.  We are only responsible with our own.  This is a very important lesson to learn.  It doesn't mean I don't offer my advice from time to time.  But I don't compel them to follow my advice or I kick them out of the family.

The reason I did not comment on this post earlier is because I don't really think this post is what millennials are having a problem with.  In fact, I think this message is what many need to stay close to the church.  Many do not see this message coming from the actions of the church.  And that seems to be where the disconnect is coming from.  

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I think that millennials, as a group, painting with broad brush strokes, have a very shallow understanding of social relationships, society, and government.  There is a significant difference between someone who is an idealist and someone who has a limited grasp of of the topics they are discussing and/or being programmed to repeat trite, nice-sounding phrases.  

For example, it never fails to inform me about those young college students that talk incessantly about tolerance, equality, and inclusion and those same students are divided up by race in their respective student unions.  It is across the board - there are no, zero, fully integrated universities because the students themselves choose not to be integrated.  Yes, of course, they all like to talk about it and none of them are "it" by their own choice.  

Demanding changes in society is great when it is someone else that must change.  It is seldom a great thing when you have to look in the mirror and say, "I need to change" or "I am the problem".  

We have raised the most entitled, demanding, spoiled generation in the world.  They all seem to feel entitled to what they want - they never once begin to think about what is good for society; what is good for my community, or what is good for my nation.  I am not talking about popping off phrases, but actual thoughts that they have contemplated and understood the cost, both financial and societal, of an action.  

A good example - AND NOT TO TALK ABOUT POLITICS OR HIJACK THE THREAD - socialism seems to be, at least in the minds of the young, such a novel good sounding idea.  The problem is they have not studied what a socialist society looks like over the long term.  They have not talked to people who have lived under it to find out the good and the bad.  They most they have done is consider all the good things - free college education and free medical care, unlimited unemployment benefits, a house for everyone, etc., etc., etc.  These things are good until we begin to consider how we pay for them.  When have we heard anyone talk about that?  Who wants to implement such plans?  It is seldom the small business owner that is scraping by, works more hours than they can count, and has not taken a vacation in recent memory.   

As I have gotten older I have gotten complacent and have taken a laissez faire attitude to most things - almost all things.  In many respects I am just tired.  I just try to live my life without the notice of government, political parties, church officials, and too many people in my community.  I appreciate my church family, my own family, my friends around the world because I have traveled extensively.  But I don't feel the need to be a radical, striving to change everyone else to meet my own concept of a better world. 

This is a very interesting and revealing post.  It certainly explains why we often find ourselves coming from different perspectives.  I live in San Francisco.  I love it here.  And a big reason I love it here is the diversity and the embracing of that diversity.  No one cares one bit if you are black, white asian, middle easterner, latino, gay straight or whatever.  Our immediate neighbors on one side are asian and white.  On the other, asian and latino.  We have dinner with them, celebrate the birthday of their little girl and they could care less that we are gay.  Our neighbor downstairs is a barely 30 middle easter, working for Apple computer.  He works hard, and he plays hard.   He is young, and has lots of friends.  When they come over, they also are every race and color.  I don't know if anyone of gay because it just never comes up.  I do know  that some are Muslin, some Christian and the rest I have no idea.  I love living in San Francisco.  It is not without it's problems, but diversity and inclusiveness is not one of them.

I also don't want to get political.  But I would like to comment a bit about Socialism.  I have lived in several socialist countries.  Once for two years.  I have also live in probably 10 socialist countries for 6-9 month periods.  While they too have their problems. and as much as I love the USA, I do know that this country is not the only place that is a wonderful place to live.  Of the top 10 countries in the world that have the highest quality of life, the United States ranks only 7th.  Norway, Australia, Switzerland, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany Iceland, United States, Canada and New Zealand. Do you notice anything about that list?  They are ALL more socialistic than we are.  I am NOT saying that I want to live under a socialists government.  But it doesn't mean that our form of government is the only type of government that meets the needs of their citizens.  Maybe younger people are just more open minded about socialism.

[mnn727]

On 4/14/2016 at 0:20 PM, bluebell said:

I'm just going off of your post where you stated that boring church meetings are a problem. 

Church meetings are the same as they have been for decades and previous generations did not respond as you say millenials are responding. 

Asking why millenials struggle more with boring meetings than previous generations is a reasonable question. 

We can't deal with the problem until we know why it's a problem to begin with  

 

Its not just millennials. I'm a baby boomer and I find most Church meetings boring.

Most people are not adept at public speaking and don't take the time to research their talks and then practice them, and it shows. 

Some teachers are better than others and our current G.D. teacher, while a wonderful man personally, shouldn't be teaching the class.

The only 'spiritual food' I can count on every Sunday is in H.P. Group and that's due to the dynamics of the group, unfortunatly many of those are getting up there in years and won't be with us too much longer.

Funny because one thing that drew me to the Church was everyone participating, now it annoys me at times. Some times I wish we had a professional Clergy (IE someone trained to Preach the Gospel and give sermons like most Churches do).

Don't even get me started on Auxiliary meetings.........

Edited April 18, 2016 by mnn727

[The Nehor]

[why me]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

Tell us a little more about your statement. Do you think Christ tolerated adultery?  Probably not. But that didn't prevent Him from associating with them. Do you worry that if millennials have friends that sin they are not condemning sin enough?  Should they give up those friends?  I would be really interested in your perspective.  I think this is a very important issue that churches appear to be loosing given the sheer number of those walking away from organized religion. 

I think that the problem with lds millennials is that they see their own social values as different from their friends. It is very difficult to have such conservative social values and yet, exist with friends who may have more secular anything goes values. And it is not easy to defend social values from a religious viewpoint. It just doesn't work. Also, unlike muslim youth who seem to need to conform to community pressure and wear the hijab etc, and yet, receive support for their identity as muslims, mormon youth do not have that option. Mormons and devote christians do have such identity support from the liberal public. So, mormon millenials are up against it. And many just can't take the pressure from peer groups.

[why me]

8 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said:

Definitely I am married...I mean I love my kids but I'd never have kids if I had fifty other lives to repeat...But I enjoy them, even my ex wife, I don't know if I have a better genuine friend than her. The thing about Faith bothered me was that it was always one_way demand, no matter how much I invested/prayed it was never enough...

Here in my private life I can be successful beyond my dreams (drive RangeRovers ,live in Park City, ) I could never satisfy God/Jesus. I am not vindictive or anything but life is so much better knowing this is the only shot I got.....

This is interesting. One can be any kind of mormon one wants to be and yet, still go to church. Mormonism does not prevent rangerovers and skiing in park city. And what does it mean to satisfy god or jesus. We have free will and agency for a reason: to live with our choices as members. I see no one way demand. Free agency is about choice. As for devote mormons, this life is also a one way shot. Only one physical life for each person. I think that problem comes with how each lds person interprets life. As for me, I am a member who does his own thing. It is my free will and choice. But I can still go to church and be accept regardless of how I live life.

[stemelbow]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 1:06 PM, ksfisher said:

All humans try to impress others, it's part of our nature.  It's not something new or unique to missionaries.  As we grow and mature we learn that it's who we are inside that is most impressive.  Missionaries succeed despite not knowing this. 

Have you ever had an employer of church leader tell you "don't put your best foot forward on this one."? 

The whole program is to follow Christ's command to take the gospel to the entire world.

The whole program is to teach by the Spirit so that others may be converted by that Spirit.

The whole program is to have joy in serving the Lord.

Who wants joy when so many are suffering in this world? 

[stemelbow]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 3:49 PM, The Nehor said:

I doubt it. My mission was the highest baptizing in the area (meaning area designation under area 70s) and the highest baptizing on the continent.

Yiptey.  Many of the highest baptizing ones were the worst ones.  That's how they were the highest baptizing.  Breaking rules and letting it all hang out.  I know because mine was the same--highest baptizing. 

[stemelbow]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 5:06 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

As someone who served a mission in the 90s and has worked closely with the full-time missionaries most of my life thereafter -- including now serving my second stint as ward mission leader in my current ward -- I have to concur with The Nehor. For the past several years, our ward has been blessed with a series of remarkable young men and young women. Their dedication, faith, knowledge, and personal conversion astound me. And it seems to me that they just keep getting better and better.

For what it's worth, I also don't see evidence of this waning post-mission. I am Facebook friends with nearly every returned Elder who has served in our ward during the past 2.5 years (we only had Sisters before that), and I communicate with them frequently, sometimes by their initiation and sometimes by mine. (Some of them talk to me via iMessage as well.) I don't know of a single one -- from Colombia to Finland -- who isn't active and doing good things.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the mission president tends to send missionaries to our ward who need a bit of help. One of those, whom the MP left here for his final eight months so that he could go home strong, has been serving as the elders quorum president in his ward almost since his return, and he's already helped five of his mates get baptised.

Another who served in our ward for eight months regularly sends me messages to tell me what he has most recently learnt from revelation. His latest message simply read, 'God's way is the best way. The ONLY way'. No doubt there will be a personal experience behind this, and I'll ask him about it at some point.

Another one, who served in our ward twice, sent me a video clip via Facebook Messenger a couple of weeks ago. It was of him and the full-time missionaries in his car on their way to an appointment that he had arranged for them. As the camera panned round to him in the driver seat, he said, 'Brother Hamba, I just want you to see that I'm now doing what you do'. Good stuff!

I'm in the same boat--having served in the 90s and having been WML and such for many of the years that followed.  And I see nothing of the sort of what you are reporting.  I guess we're all mired by our limited perspectives in this. 

Your perspective is odd too considering all the things that's been the buzz in our wards and stake.  Recently in our ward conference, our SP talked about the issue of missionaries leaving home early, in numbers not seen before, and the inactivity of missionaries after getting home is getting out of hand and an issue we need to deal with. 

But maybe we're just seeing these things in our area?  I thought it was a church wide issue since it seemed to be addressed by the Church as well. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by stemelbow

[Atheist Mormon]

7 hours ago, why me said:

This is interesting. One can be any kind of mormon one wants to be and yet, still go to church. Mormonism does not prevent rangerovers and skiing in park city. And what does it mean to satisfy god or jesus. We have free will and agency for a reason: to live with our choices as members. I see no one way demand. Free agency is about choice. As for devote mormons, this life is also a one way shot. Only one physical life for each person. I think that problem comes with how each lds person interprets life. As for me, I am a member who does his own thing. It is my free will and choice. But I can still go to church and be accept regardless of how I live life.

I disagree with you, what part of God/Jesus Plan offers free will? Not word of Wisdom rules, You can't skip the church regularly, especially not for a good weekend in Wendower or Mesquite...There's never an healthy balance of gratification for a TBM, I mean.....even drinking a beer or a cup of black tea is impossible....I'm European, when I was in France,Switzerland with the missionaries (I wasn't one) I always used to tease them "Now I realize that you are bringing the good news to them but how do they take the bad news of giving up their Wine,Tea and beer?" They knew I was joking but deep down they knew this was an insurmountable problem..... 

[halconero]

21 hours ago, Duncan said:

Um, actually my "cross section" dates back to the 1980's....so....

Well there's your problem you old fart!

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said:

I disagree with you, what part of God/Jesus Plan offers free will? Not word of Wisdom rules, You can't skip the church regularly, especially not for a good weekend in Wendower or Mesquite...There's never an healthy balance of gratification for a TBM, I mean.....even drinking a beer or a cup of black tea is impossible....I'm European, when I was in France,Switzerland with the missionaries (I wasn't one) I always used to tease them "Now I realize that you are bringing the good news to them but how do they take the bad news of giving up their Wine,Tea and beer?" They knew I was joking but deep down they knew this was an insurmountable problem..... 

Not being able to drink beer, tea, or wine is insurmountable?