How Do We Get Out Of The Crisis Of Faith Dead End?

[SamIam]

Wonderful thread, Samlam.

HiJolly

Thank you. Feel free to toss in your 2 bits...

[CV75]

The key criteria for assessment, then, is reasonable progression towards Christ. If we as members aren't progressing in joy and love and goodness at a reasonable rate and over a reasonable period of time, then we need to reevaluate our view and approach to the gospel--including why and whether we obey.

I like this passage about that:

"There is a great deal for us to do, and I wish you would all think so, and have these things before your minds continually. How can this evil be remedied? I say, in the name of the Lord God of Israel, Wake up from your slumber, and get within your souls the Spirit of the Most High

God; and the more you have of it, the more you will feel the necessity of being wide awake and attentive to your duties.

Your eyes have become dim because of your dullness and inattention to your duties. The Scriptures say—“Let thine eye be single, that thy whole body may be full of light.” The reason we do not see things as they are is because we have become dull and stupid, and do not understand the things of God. It is said in the Scriptures that the eyes of certain characters are like the fool's eyes, reaching to the ends of the earth; and like the door upon its hinges, doing no good, but just swinging backwards and forwards. Brother Benson, won't you shut that vestry door, and open it again? [Which he did.] Now, don't you see, brethren, that has neither lost nor gained anything; but it will soon wear out. This figure I wish to apply to you indolent persons, and thereby show you that you ought to go to work and improve—bring about something for the honor and glory of God, and the adorning and building up of his kingdom. I do not want you to be like the sow that has been taken and washed clean, and then as soon as the door is open she goes into the dirtiest mudhole there is in the neighborhood. But as you have been washed in the waters of baptism and entered into the fold, I want you to remain clean and pure, and to labor for the welfare of Zion and the upbuilding of the kingdom of our God. If you act like the sow, then your last end will be worse than your first.

You have entered into the kingdom, and should be like a little child, humble, meek, and passive in the hands of your superiors."

(Journal of Discourses, Volume 8, Discourse 65: The Latter-day Kingdom—Connections of the Priesthood—Temporal Salvation, &c. Remarks by President Heber C. Kimball, made in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, October 6, 1860. Reported By: J. V. Long.)

Edited September 27, 2012 by CV75

[CV75]

double post

Edited September 27, 2012 by CV75

[DBMormon]

SAMLAM - I listened to all of those talks. I think I have caught the vision.

One must repent continually.

One must be willing to submit his will to God

One must be trying with full intent to live the gospel

I have other thoughts as well but this will get us started.

I knew these already but they were pointed out over and over in these talks. It helped me to see them slightly differently

Edited September 27, 2012 by DBMormon

[SamIam]

SAMLAM - I listened to all of those talks. I think I have caught the vision.

One must repent continually.

One must be willing to submit his will to God

One must be trying with full intent to live the gospel

I have other thoughts as well but this will get us started.

I knew these already but they were pointed out over and over in these talks. It helped me to see them slightly differently

These are perfect. I can only say that when I finally heard this it was radically different than what I had been hearing prior. Before I lived in the usual mentality of Oh, I'm okay I always ask for forgiveness and I'm always trying to get better, and I'm pretty good with doing okay on living the gospel...

Then one day on the mountain it was made a different understanding. This "for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance" became an awareness of I must plead and sorrow for the least degree of sin even those I was yet to recognize. Of course this is the ongoing process after the born again experience as well. You will be taught and tried upon each of the least degrees and your heart will continue to become more and more softened and less hardhearted. This began a more sincere and welling up of a hunger to draw near unto God through repentance and obedience. The casual became the sincere and even from that moment it has been a continuous incline of improvement of conversion.

In fact I consider this the crux of why people continue in the difficulties of the crisis of faith. They want to hold on to their hardheartedness and rebellion in ways they are not willing to realize are hardheartedness and rebellion. However, once they change their intent and begin to wholeheartedly desire and live according to God's will and stop their rebellions against the leaders and their complaints against the church then and only then will the crisis end. As the process matures in ourselves, we no longer feel the need to act in sympathy and understanding for hardheartedness. Instead we avoid the conversations that are overwhelmingly enabling and excusing of hardheartedness and use our sympathetic efforts to turn people to the principles of being born again.

[DBMormon]

SAMLAM some Thoughts - my cliff's notes

Bednar - ye must be born again

Prepare to be changed - parable of the pickle

Also must be clean

He invited the Holy Ghost at the beginning of his talk - touched my heart

Trust and follow Christ

Eyring's Raise the Bar

Right Path is upwards

Must have a burning desire, it must be consistent and ever growing

Remind yourself often of the desire you have(don't get lulled)

Elder Bruce D Porter - A Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit

You will need to willingly give your heart to God

Rely on Christ in humility

Must have true sorrow for sin

One born again will do anything and everything that God asks

one born again is submissive

Other thoughts I had while listening to them

Elder Holland -

And likewise,

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

Obviously as the path of discipleship ascends, that trail gets ever more narrow until we come to that knee-buckling pinnacle of the sermon of which Elder Christofferson just spoke: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” What was gentle in the lowlands of initial loyalty becomes deeply strenuous and very demanding at the summit of true discipleship. Clearly anyone who thinks Jesus taught no-fault theology did not read the fine print in the contract! No, in matters of discipleship the Church is not a fast-food outlet; we can’t always have it “our way.” Some day every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation can only come His way.

Many members see repentance as the repentance process but we fail to recognize the real meaning of repentance is change

Alma talking about those who felt Grace and felt the Holy Ghost and were off and running on the right path but then were lulled into being pacified and hit a plateau of comfort... stated "And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?"

Lastly the thought entered my head that in our wards we speak so much about peripheral policies, programs, and other info not directly pertinent to our salvation - might we

And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?

Why not speak more of Christ and his atonement and focus on him and less on the peripheral issues.

[SamIam]

Lastly the thought entered my head that in our wards we speak so much about peripheral policies, programs, and other info not directly pertinent to our salvation - might we

And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?

Why not speak more of Christ and his atonement and focus on him and less on the peripheral issues.

I have nothing to add to your observations - Except that if you accept the challenge, and do it or begin the process of moving forward, then as you encounter those in their crisis of faith moments, and those members in your care that are simply looking for perfect instruction of where they should be heading, as you work within these groups you will know exactly what they must do and be able to give them the clear direction they need to overcome all. Sadly some may continue to rebel but it will not be because they received false instruction.

Edited September 28, 2012 by SamIam

[DBMormon]

It has, and while you have reservations, this process begun several months ago but included some rough patches along the way. I am grateful for the things you shared but also hope you take me seriously when I say the gospel is not something I take lightly, though I may or may not be going about it the right way all along this journey.

Thank you

This thread was started for you as it's focus. I hope this effort has been meaningful.

that was obvious by the way...lol

Edited September 27, 2012 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

SAMLAM some Thoughts - my cliff's notes

Bednar - ye must be born again

Prepare to be changed - parable of the pickle

Also must be clean

He invited the Holy Ghost at the beginning of his talk - touched my heart

Trust and follow Christ

Eyring's Raise the Bar

Right Path is upwards

Must have a burning desire, it must be consistent and ever growing

Remind yourself often of the desire you have(don't get lulled)

Elder Bruce D Porter - A Broken Heart and Contrite Spirit

You will need to willingly give your heart to God

Rely on Christ in humility

Must have true sorrow for sin

One born again will do anything and everything that God asks

one born again is submissive

Other thoughts I had while listening to them

Many members see repentance as the repentance process but we fail to recognize the real meaning of repentance is change

Alma talking about those who felt Grace and felt the Holy Ghost and were off and running on the right path but then were lulled into being pacified and hit a plateau of comfort... stated "And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, if ye have experienced a change of heart, and if ye have felt to sing the song of redeeming love, I would ask, can ye feel so now?"

Lastly the thought entered my head that in our wards we speak so much about peripheral policies, programs, and other info not directly pertinent to our salvation - might we

And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?

Why not speak more of Christ and his atonement and focus on him and less on the peripheral issues.

My thoughts exactly, the bolded part and last sentence. I do think we talk on it. But there can be far too many programs (busy work) that can be involved. Edited September 28, 2012 by Tacenda

[DBMormon]

I have at times in my life not hunkered down with this process, out of fear. Fear that once I did this, and if the results were not what was promised, that I would be left with nothing.

I think many keep one foot in Zion and one foot in Babylon for this reason.

[Bart Burk]

My thoughts exactly, the bolded part and last sentence. I do think we talk on it. But there can be far too many programs (busy work) that can be involved.

I understand the concern with busywork, but I have come to believe what some call busywork is really essential in serving others. I have children who grew up LDS and are blessed as grownups because of all the time people took teaching in Primary, serving as Boy Scout leaders, taking them home teaching, teaching Seminary, going to Girls Camp, visiting our family as home teachers. All of these people have helped them believe in the atonement of Christ and his resurrection in their own small way. Religious communities of value that I have seen whether Mormon, Protestant or Catholic, call upon their members to serve each other as they grow closer to Christ. Just attending church or reading your Bible might get you closer, but you can't really be Christ-like without serving others. Edited September 29, 2012 by Bart Burk

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Sometimes I wonder why people seem to spin in circles not getting out of a pattern of thinking that is not inclined to provide spiritual growth. I have wondered if perhaps it is because they loose sight of the objectives that mark degrees of progress so that they can sort of determine where they are in the process.

Article of faith four provides the outline of a initial goal structure. First faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentance, third baptism , fourth the receiving of the Holy Ghost. However, these are called the first principles of the Gospel for a reason. Is there something more tangible we should be striving for as these are achieved? After these first principles so many people loose a sense of direction. Many no longer have a list to work from and seem to spin between the state of achieving baptism and then not achieving the receipt of the Holy Ghost or perhaps in some few instances receiving the baptism of fire but not knowing what to expect or strive for next.

The extreme reach is of course the Brother of Jared experience where one is brought into the presence of Christ. However, what are the stepping stones along the way that mark our own progress towards that ultimate goal. Frequently members spin on points of wonderment and doubt and question the credibility of sacred records. They toss and turn over every point of history feeding the fires of their testimony with wet wood which creates the smoking billows of a fire in trouble.

It almost seems to indicate that the objectives are lost. The behavior shows one that is still seeking and that is good, but that they haven't an idea of what patterns they should be seeking to continue the spiritual growth that will drown doubts and insecurity and actually continue a process of forward spiritual development. To that ends I start this thread.

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

3.) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

We are flawed beings...this is why.

[SamIam]

We are flawed beings...this is why.

This sounds like the Popeye defense...I yam that I yam, I'm Popeye the Sailor man.

...and is that the end of story in your mind. Is there is no way to improve upon weak states of faith and develop the foundation of faith we are told to develop in scripture and by the servants of the Lord. Surely you have more thoughts on the subject than such a fatalistic view.

[Calm]

I understand the concern with busywork, but I have come to believe what some call busywork is really essential in serving others. I have children who grew up LDS and are blessed as grownups because of all the time people took teaching in Primary, serving as Boy Scout leaders, taking them home teaching, teaching Seminary, going to Girls Camp, visiting our family as home teachers. All of these people have helped them believe in the atonement of Christ and his resurrection in their own small way. Religious communities of value that I have seen whether Mormon, Protestant or Catholic, call upon their members to serve each other as they grow closer to Christ. Just attending church or reading your Bible might get you closer, but you can't really be Christ-like without serving others.

Well said.

[Broker]

I enjoyed reading the comments in this thread and I thought the participants would interested to know they helped provide a vehicle for some personal revelation.

In recent weeks, I've struggled with feeling the Holy Ghost. Due to pressures and politics at work and challenges with my youngest son (anybody else have a 16 year-old that knows everything ?), my heart was becoming hardended. I knew I needed to fix that, but felt a bit lost as where to start. A few days ago I was reading this thread. As I was pondering your comments, I received a strong impression that I needed to study this subject in more depth. I resolved I would use Conference weekend to to that. I started last night (Friday evening). I started assembling conference talk teachings and scriptures and recording my own feelings. As I studied and wrote, I could feel inspiration flowing, teaching me what I needed to do, and repent of, in order to soften my heart and once again be receptive to the Holy Ghost. I could feel the stress leave my body as it was replaced with peace.

This evening, I attended General Priesthood Meeting with two of my sons. After the meeting, I spent a couple minute chatting with a member of our bishopric. As I turned to leave, he said " while your here, could I ask you to give a talk next Sunday ?". I said I would do that and asked about the subject. He asked me to base my remarks on an April 2008 talk by Elder Gerald Lund. The talk ? "Opening our hearts to the Holy Spirit".

[Tacenda]

I enjoyed reading the comments in this thread and I thought the participants would interested to know they helped provide a vehicle for some personal revelation.

In recent weeks, I've struggled with feeling the Holy Ghost. Due to pressures and politics at work and challenges with my youngest son (anybody else have a 16 year-old that knows everything ?), my heart was becoming hardended. I knew I needed to fix that, but felt a bit lost as where to start. A few days ago I was reading this thread. As I was pondering your comments, I received a strong impression that I needed to study this subject in more depth. I resolved I would use Conference weekend to to that. I started last night (Friday evening). I started assembling conference talk teachings and scriptures and recording my own feelings. As I studied and wrote, I could feel inspiration flowing, teaching me what I needed to do, and repent of, in order to soften my heart and once again be receptive to the Holy Ghost. I could feel the stress leave my body as it was replaced with peace.

This evening, I attended General Priesthood Meeting with two of my sons. After the meeting, I spent a couple minute chatting with a member of our bishopric. As I turned to leave, he said " while your here, could I ask you to give a talk next Sunday ?". I said I would do that and asked about the subject. He asked me to base my remarks on an April 2008 talk by Elder Gerald Lund. The talk ? "Opening our hearts to the Holy Spirit".

That's cool. I do remember times like that when I was a more believing LDS. It was incredible and makes me feel guilty for ever doubting the church. Do you think HF or the HG guide other's in other faith's the same way? Just needed to lessen some guilt here not lessen your experience.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Difficulties cause many to lose Faith to one degree or another. This is why it is called "trials of faith"...the greatest of men go through such trials...namely every Prophet I know do including our own Joseph Smith. Because of his greatest trial of faith we have some of the greatest scripture ever written.; D&C 121...I love the trials of faith I pass through, I alway come out stronger after.

[JamesJ]

Sometimes I wonder why people seem to spin in circles not getting out of a pattern of thinking that is not inclined to provide spiritual growth. I have wondered if perhaps it is because they loose sight of the objectives that mark degrees of progress so that they can sort of determine where they are in the process.

Article of faith four provides the outline of a initial goal structure. First faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentance, third baptism , fourth the receiving of the Holy Ghost. However, these are called the first principles of the Gospel for a reason. Is there something more tangible we should be striving for as these are achieved? After these first principles so many people loose a sense of direction. Many no longer have a list to work from and seem to spin between the state of achieving baptism and then not achieving the receipt of the Holy Ghost or perhaps in some few instances receiving the baptism of fire but not knowing what to expect or strive for next.

The extreme reach is of course the Brother of Jared experience where one is brought into the presence of Christ. However, what are the stepping stones along the way that mark our own progress towards that ultimate goal. Frequently members spin on points of wonderment and doubt and question the credibility of sacred records. They toss and turn over every point of history feeding the fires of their testimony with wet wood which creates the smoking billows of a fire in trouble.

It almost seems to indicate that the objectives are lost. The behavior shows one that is still seeking and that is good, but that they haven't an idea of what patterns they should be seeking to continue the spiritual growth that will drown doubts and insecurity and actually continue a process of forward spiritual development. To that ends I start this thread.

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

3.) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

May I suggest The GOD Inspired Twelve Steps? They are a design for prudent living. www.processgroups.org

Then also, may I suggest my personal view:

1.) Start small. Accept that small faith is better than no faith, and move on.

2.) None, The Holy Spirit (Second Comforter) Will Guide, relax.

3.) Simply be yourself, working towards being a better person, as always.

4.) GOD CARES. You are where you are supposed to be at this time. Seek GOD, tell HER your concerns, and don't worry so much about being good enough for GOD. Pray and confess your sins. Seek Forgiveness From GOD, not Jesus, and repent. Then, trust in GOD.

[Calm]

I enjoyed reading the comments in this thread and I thought the participants would interested to know they helped provide a vehicle for some personal revelation.....

As I studied and wrote, I could feel inspiration flowing, teaching me what I needed to do, and repent of, in order to soften my heart and once again be receptive to the Holy Ghost. I could feel the stress leave my body as it was replaced with peace..

while I think the primary purpose of the board is to share information fo entertainment and education, it is always great to hear when someone does something with the experience and through that application betters their life. We need to remember that learning is good in and of itself, but much greater gifts come when we use that knowledge.

[Calm]

JamesJ, why don't you start a thread in social about why you believe God is female? If it gets into debate, we can ask the mods to move it into this forum.

I have not heard of your faith before and would like to get some detail from you rather than the website, more interesting talking to someone with a brain.

[Tacenda]

Difficulties cause many to lose Faith to one degree or another. This is why it is called "trials of faith"...the greatest of men go through such trials...namely every Prophet I know do including our own Joseph Smith. Because of his greatest trial of faith we have some of the greatest scripture ever written.; D&C 121...I love the trials of faith I pass through, I alway come out stronger after.

I wish we had a like button!

[SamIam]

I enjoyed reading the comments in this thread and I thought the participants would interested to know they helped provide a vehicle for some personal revelation.

In recent weeks, I've struggled with feeling the Holy Ghost. Due to pressures and politics at work and challenges with my youngest son (anybody else have a 16 year-old that knows everything ?), my heart was becoming hardended. I knew I needed to fix that, but felt a bit lost as where to start. A few days ago I was reading this thread. As I was pondering your comments, I received a strong impression that I needed to study this subject in more depth. I resolved I would use Conference weekend to to that. I started last night (Friday evening). I started assembling conference talk teachings and scriptures and recording my own feelings. As I studied and wrote, I could feel inspiration flowing, teaching me what I needed to do, and repent of, in order to soften my heart and once again be receptive to the Holy Ghost. I could feel the stress leave my body as it was replaced with peace.

This evening, I attended General Priesthood Meeting with two of my sons. After the meeting, I spent a couple minute chatting with a member of our bishopric. As I turned to leave, he said " while your here, could I ask you to give a talk next Sunday ?". I said I would do that and asked about the subject. He asked me to base my remarks on an April 2008 talk by Elder Gerald Lund. The talk ? "Opening our hearts to the Holy Spirit".

Your post illustrates the receptive attitude that is an imperative to receive the blessings of the spirit. How often I have wished that the process for interaction on these threads was one of read, ponder and pray and then respond. Generally most read and respond without the pondering and prayer part and we are left to our own devices which seldom lead to real change. Yours is an excellent example of the benefits of pondering and seeking guidance to complete the process and give it meaning. Thank you for your comments.

Edited October 7, 2012 by SamIam

[volgadon]

I wish we had a like button!

There is. I call the campaign rep points for Pa Pa.

[Broker]

That's cool. I do remember times like that when I was a more believing LDS. It was incredible and makes me feel guilty for ever doubting the church. Do you think HF or the HG guide other's in other faith's the same way? Just needed to lessen some guilt here not lessen your experience.

I believe any honest seeker of truth can receive Heavenly direction. Whether that comes through the Holy Ghost, the Light of Christ, or some other means, it will come.

[SamIam]

Difficulties cause many to lose Faith to one degree or another. This is why it is called "trials of faith"...the greatest of men go through such trials...namely every Prophet I know do including our own Joseph Smith. Because of his greatest trial of faith we have some of the greatest scripture ever written.; D&C 121...I love the trials of faith I pass through, I alway come out stronger after.

I would perhaps qualify your observations into two categories. Your first sentence, "Difficulties cause many to lose Faith to one degree or another." actually combines two different principles which generally are at odds with one another. The first should not be confused with the second.

To "lose faith" is more commonly associated with what we have been calling a "crisis of faith". This is associated with those who failing to be diligent and obedient find themselves in a place where they doubt or question various aspects of Christ's organization. Whether it be His divinity, or his servants, or his church or some other facet of his Gospel, these are at risk of losing the impetus of their testimony in drawing them continuously closer to God and his Son Jesus Christ. These are typically those who have a testimony but are yet to be fully converted through the baptism of fire.

A trial of ones faith is not the same a losing one's faith. It is a stretching of ones faith, if you will. A trial of ones faith is a process of strengthening and testing which is designed for the obedient as a means of furthering and proving ones faith. It's end result is to enhance and improve ones relationship with God and His Son. It is a natural process and follows obedience as a means of furthering ones growth in the gospel. It is not about questioning God, or his Son, or his church. These are those who are strengthening the degree of their conversion or who are fully converted and understand teh challenges to be faced as trials of faith.

Prophets and all of those who are advancing in obedience will exercise their faith. This exercise of faith insures the experience of the trial of ones faith, and it is possible that if one should fail to endure, one could enter a crisis of faith. However as a rule the obedient endure trials of their faith in the continuous process of moving towards the objective of making ones calling and election sure. This is the process which Joseph Smith and the prophets were engaged in and which provided some of our greatest scripture.

A crisis of faith is a product of rebellion and disobedience. It's basis is doubt, or selfishness and leads to disobedience. If it is not averted it leads to a loss of belief in true principles and results potentially in the full rebellion of the individual and the loss of the blessings of previous trials of faith. Repentance is the required gateway to overcoming a crisis of faith and a reaffirmation to being obedient to God's will. Joseph Smith and the prophets did not produce scripture upon principles of a crisis of faith, save it be that after any crisis they may have had early on they repented and bore testimony of the process of being reunited to God in faith. When in jail or otherwise afflicted the risk of the trial of his faith was not that he was at risk to turn his back on God as is the case for a crisis of faith.

Edited October 7, 2012 by SamIam