How Do We Get Out Of The Crisis Of Faith Dead End?

[cassieblanca]

Frequently members spin on points of wonderment and doubt and question the credibility of sacred records. They toss and turn over every point of history feeding the fires of their testimony with wet wood which creates the smoking billows of a fire in trouble.

It almost seems to indicate that the objectives are lost. The behavior shows one that is still seeking and that is good, but that they haven't an idea of what patterns they should be seeking to continue the spiritual growth that will drown doubts and insecurity and actually continue a process of forward spiritual development.

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

I have seen this - where someone starts to doubt and question and they believe they are basing their doubt on intellectual reasons. They believe it is being "intellectually dishonest" to continue in the church after finding out "evidence" against it. I think too many people hear one side and don't bother to research the other side of the question. So I think to get through the crisis, you have to really look at the evidence - which means finding out if there is another side to the issue. And also you have to rethink your reasons for faith in the first place. If you're doubting the church because you just found out that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, you have to ask yourself - did JS have to be a monogamist in order for the church to be true? Did he ever say he didn't practice polygamy? Does his practice of polygamy later make his account of the first vision false? Does it make *my* answers to prayers that I have received false?

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

I think we have to be open to whatever experiences the Lord is willing to give us. I think we have to ask him in faith to help us understand and he will. That is pretty general and vague because everybody's circumstances and position of faith to begin with are so different. For me, I sometimes ask for something specific - not like a sign but like an assurance that I'm in the right place - and sometimes I don't get it but usually I do.

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

The state of our hearts. We have to be open-minded and not hard-hearted. And we have to be okay with not understanding everything. I don't have all the answers to BoM archaeology or the theory of evolution or anything like that. But I am okay with not understanding all the details. I know *why* I believe and I know there is some way that it will all make sense and someday I will understand it, and it's okay that that day isn't today.

3.) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

prayer and study and meditation, I think. And like I said before, you have to be open-minded.

[Cobalt-70]

Duh! The point is to avoid having a crisis of faith, and you won't have one if God is talking to you, personally, telling you whatever you want to know.

I disagree. I think that unless you have had some kind of crisis of faith, you are not yet fully spiritually mature. Consider that Ether 12:6 says that "ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith." Structural psychologist James Fowler has a useful paradigm. He says that a person's faith development passes through a number of stages on the way to what you might call enlightenment. Most Mormons remain at stage 3, which is a "synthetic-conventional" faith, which ignores or suppresses internal or external conflicts of belief and is sustained externally, by conformity with sources of religious authority. A lot of Mormons are perfectly happy to remain in that state, but it represents an immature faith that has not yet really been tested.

To get beyond that stage 3, you have to pass through a very dangerous and disturbing stage 4, a "individuative-reflective" faith, in which the person takes personal responsibility for their own beliefs and feelings, but this necessitates an internal struggle to reconcile internal conclusions with external religious authority. This stage is like the valley of the shadow of death. It is the "trial of your faith" discussed in Ether 12:6. It requires you to question your beliefs, to doubt, and acknowledge complexity. This is the point where many long-time Mormons leave the church. But if you can pass through this stage, it is possible to get to a stage 5 Mormon faith, which is a "conjunctive" faith. In stage 5, you are able to incorporate paradox and transcendence, and to reach beyond the religious symbols and language which you have inherited from tradition or upbringing. Your faith is more internal and transcendent, and no longer angst-ridden as in stage 4. It is one step below stage 6, which is basically the Jesus/Joseph Smith/Gandhi level of faith.

[Kevin Christensen]

I prefer the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth, to the Fowler Stages of Faith Model. The Perry Scheme (I've got a summary linked on my profile page here) deal with 9 stages in how a person processes information. In comparison, the Fowler stages have more to do with the conclusions that a person reaches, ideally, it seems, coming to think like Fowler. While the first three of Fowler's six stages are not controversial, and have some support from outside study, the later three. less so.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[Cobalt-70]

Well, the end stage of Perry's scheme is relativism. Faith and relativism do not mix well (which is one of the reasons why, according to Fowler, stage 4 is so angst-ridden). Perry's scheme was not specifically designed to describe religious development, so I think it is stretching the model too far to suppose that the most mature stage of faith development is relativism. In Fowler's model, the true relativist would probably fit within his stage 4, and I agree with Fowler that it is possible to develop a faith that transcends relativism.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Cobalt-70]

{dup}

Edited September 20, 2012 by Cobalt-70

[Ahab]

I disagree. I think that unless you have had some kind of crisis of faith, you are not yet fully spiritually mature.

I've had many moments when my faith from God was tested, but I've only ever lost faith in myself. I've never lost faith in God, and I think when I fell it only helped me to realize how much I need God.

Consider that Ether 12:6 says that "ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith."

Yes, but a trial isn't necessarily what I would call a crisis. Maybe that's just another case of what you might call semantics.

Structural psychologist James Fowler has a useful paradigm. He says that a person's faith development passes through a number of stages on the way to what you might call enlightenment. Most Mormons remain at stage 3, which is a "synthetic-conventional" faith, which ignores or suppresses internal or external conflicts of belief and is sustained externally, by conformity with sources of religious authority. A lot of Mormons are perfectly happy to remain in that state, but it represents an immature faith that has not yet really been tested.

To get beyond that stage 3, you have to pass through a very dangerous and disturbing stage 4, a "individuative-reflective" faith, in which the person takes personal responsibility for their own beliefs and feelings, but this necessitates an internal struggle to reconcile internal conclusions with external religious authority. This stage is like the valley of the shadow of death. It is the "trial of your faith" discussed in Ether 12:6. It requires you to question your beliefs, to doubt, and acknowledge complexity. This is the point where many long-time Mormons leave the church. But if you can pass through this stage, it is possible to get to a stage 5 Mormon faith, which is a "conjunctive" faith. In stage 5, you are able to incorporate paradox and transcendence, and to reach beyond the religious symbols and language which you have inherited from tradition or upbringing. Your faith is more internal and transcendent, and no longer angst-ridden as in stage 4. It is one step below stage 6, which is basically the Jesus/Joseph Smith/Gandhi level of faith.

At which level would you say you have arrived at a point where you have the "constant" companionship of the Holy Ghost?

Could you have that at level 5, ya think? Or not until level 6? Or how about level 7, or 8, or 9, depending on which level you're referring to as the level Jesus or Joseph Smith were at as they progressed from grace to grace?

Do you think you could be at level 9 and then lose the companionship of the Holy Ghost, at least sometimes, not having it constantly at that point? And if you lost it, for a time, do you think you could get it back?

I'm thinking of level 10 as the level where you'll never lose it again, always having the companionship of the Holy Ghost with you, but maybe at that point you wouldn't really need him because you would be on the same level as the Holy Ghost always will be, forever... thus in essence being your own Holy Ghost as he is one with our Lord and our Father.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Ahab

[DBMormon]

SamLam,

Going to listen to these on the way to Canada and back this weekend. plus the ones you recommended that are not listed

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2010/10/receive-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng#d

http://www.lds.org/cm/catalogalphamp3/1,18331,4768-1,00.html

http://speeches.byu.edu/index.php?act=viewitem&id=2038

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1981/10/sanctification-through-missionary-service

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2001/06/justification-and-sanctification

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/04/born-again?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/preserving-the-hearts-mighty-change?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/ye-must-be-born-again?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2001/04/born-again?lang=eng

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/born-of-god

[Cobalt-70]

At which level would you say you have arrived at a point where you have the "constant" companionship of the Holy Ghost?

You can have the constant companionship of the Holy Spirit at any stage from 2 to 6. (In stages 0 and 1, you are probably too young.)

The difference is in what types of enlightenment from the Holy Spirit you are willing to accept at each stage. If you are in stage 3, you are going to be receptive to spiritual issues relating to the correctness of religious authority, and whether a particular situation fits within a particular external paradigm coming down from General Conference or your understanding of the scriptures. That is the world in which the Holy Spirit will guide you.

If you are in stage 4, on the other hand, the influence of the Holy Spirit is more likely to be felt in a more personal, reflective capacity. The Spirit might seemingly give you conflicting signals. You might get enlightenment from what the latest general authority tells you, but the Spirit might also send you in directions that seem (while you are in stage 4) to completely contradict the latest thing coming down from Salt Lake City. The conflict will cause you angst, because in stage 3, you had gotten used to a coherent religious world in which the Holy Spirit (in theory) had a clear message, consistent with Salt Lake, and your duty was simply to follow, rather than to participate and internalize.

[Tacenda]

You can have the constant companionship of the Holy Spirit at any stage from 2 to 6. (In stages 0 and 1, you are probably too young.)

The difference is in what types of enlightenment from the Holy Spirit you are willing to accept at each stage. If you are in stage 3, you are going to be receptive to spiritual issues relating to the correctness of religious authority, and whether a particular situation fits within a particular external paradigm coming down from General Conference or your understanding of the scriptures. That is the world in which the Holy Spirit will guide you.

If you are in stage 4, on the other hand, the influence of the Holy Spirit is more likely to be felt in a more personal, reflective capacity. The Spirit might seemingly give you conflicting signals. You might get enlightenment from what the latest general authority tells you, but the Spirit might also send you in directions that seem (while you are in stage 4) to completely contradict the latest thing coming down from Salt Lake City. The conflict will cause you angst, because in stage 3, you had gotten used to a coherent religious world in which the Holy Spirit (in theory) had a clear message, consistent with Salt Lake, and your duty was simply to follow, rather than to participate and internalize.

Don't stop there, what happens with stages 4 & 5 having to do with the HG.

[Cobalt-70]

Don't stop there, what happens with stages 4 & 5 having to do with the HG.

My last post included stage 4. In stage 5, which is described as "conjunctive," you have become attuned to context and have developed a "second naivete." You are in an active partnership with the Holy Spirit, because you better understand the textual structure from which your "self" has been constructed, and you better understand the textual nature of the Holy Spirit. The "religious other" is no longer threatening to you, and you are able, if you wish, to successfully blur the distinction between self and other, to incorporate other religious texts and symbols into your own framework without conflict.

In stage 6, which is supposed to be very rare, you are a universalizer and a revolutionary. You are like Jesus or Joseph Smith. Because you create new religious text, your relationship with the Holy Spirit is more akin to what we call revelation.

[Tacenda]

My last post included stage 4. In stage 5, which is described as "conjunctive," you have become attuned to context and have developed a "second naivete." You are in an active partnership with the Holy Spirit, because you better understand the textual structure from which your "self" has been constructed, and you better understand the textual nature of the Holy Spirit. The "religious other" is no longer threatening to you, and you are able, if you wish, to successfully blur the distinction between self and other, to incorporate other religious texts and symbols into your own framework without conflict.

In stage 6, which is supposed to be very rare, you are a universalizer and a revolutionary. You are like Jesus or Joseph Smith. Because you create new religious text, your relationship with the Holy Spirit is more akin to what we call revelation.

Oops, I meant 5 & 6. I think I'm stage 4. I no longer feel anxiety connected to a religion the way I did in stage 3. I feel like a free agent now who can explore where I best fit in my religious walk. Thank you for these insights.

[Calm]

I prefer the Perry Scheme for Cognitive and Ethical Growth, to the Fowler Stages of Faith Model. The Perry Scheme (I've got a summary linked on my profile page here) deal with 9 stages in how a person processes information. In comparison, the Fowler stages have more to do with the conclusions that a person reaches, ideally, it seems, coming to think like Fowler. While the first three of Fowler's six stages are not controversial, and have some support from outside study, the later three. less so.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Someone needs to give Kevin a rep point to get him off of the dreaded 666. I tried to, but am currently maxed out.

[Alvino]

Sometimes I wonder why people seem to spin in circles not getting out of a pattern of thinking that is not inclined to provide spiritual growth. I have wondered if perhaps it is because they loose sight of the objectives that mark degrees of progress so that they can sort of determine where they are in the process.

Or, maybe, they ask themselves whether this idea of "spiritual growth" is growth at all or, if it is, whether there are better ways.

Article of faith four provides the outline of a initial goal structure. First faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentance, third baptism , fourth the receiving of the Holy Ghost. However, these are called the first principles of the Gospel for a reason. Is there something more tangible we should be striving for as these are achieved? After these first principles so many people loose a sense of direction. Many no longer have a list to work from and seem to spin between the state of achieving baptism and then not achieving the receipt of the Holy Ghost or perhaps in some few instances receiving the baptism of fire but not knowing what to expect or strive for next.

Unfortunately, you seem to think that religion is a bigger thing that it really is. People in the "crisis of faith" don't need formulaic advice but novelty; intellectual stimulation not reasonless revelation.

The extreme reach is of course the Brother of Jared experience where one is brought into the presence of Christ. However, what are the stepping stones along the way that mark our own progress towards that ultimate goal.

Or maybe it is this attitude of "behave well and you'll get the candy at the end" that is tired to some.

Frequently members spin on points of wonderment and doubt and question the credibility of sacred records. They toss and turn over every point of history feeding the fires of their testimony with wet wood which creates the smoking billows of a fire in trouble.

Which should give you a hint that they are getting, in a sense, just plainly bored with a "pray harder" approach.

It almost seems to indicate that the objectives are lost. The behavior shows one that is still seeking and that is good, but that they haven't an idea of what patterns they should be seeking to continue the spiritual growth that will drown doubts and insecurity and actually continue a process of forward spiritual development. To that ends I start this thread.

I submit to you that it is the knee-jerk reaction to uncertainty and taking lightly the troubles of the human condition (in the existential sense) that is what prevents Mormons from being profound.

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

Perhaps you want to ask, why should we end it in the first place? What is so worthy about faith that merits the "drowning" of your doubts instead of letting them speak and taking what they have to say as seriously as possible?

Edited September 21, 2012 by Alvino

[Kevin Christensen]

Well, the end stage of Perry's scheme is relativism. Faith and relativism do not mix well (which is one of the reasons why, according to Fowler, stage 4 is so angst-ridden). Perry's scheme was not specifically designed to describe religious development, so I think it is stretching the model too far to suppose that the most mature stage of faith development is relativism. In Fowler's model, the true relativist would probably fit within his stage 4, and I agree with Fowler that it is possible to develop a faith that transcends relativism.

Summarizing the end or meaning, of Perry's scheme with one word, "relativism," does not, I think, do it justice. And I think that the description of Perry's Position 6 [of 9 Positions] accurately describes the essential ongoing role of faith in making progress:

POSITION 6. Commitment Foreseen.

FROM HERE ON THE PERSON WILL FEEL FRUSTRATION IN TOO-STRUCTURED OF AN ENVIRONMENT.

Now the person thinks he is alone in an uncertain world, making his own decisions, with no one to say he is right. He makes choices aware of relativism and accepts that the agency to do so is within the individual. He sees that to move forward he must make commitments coming from within. He foresees the challenge of responsibility and feels he needs to get on with it. He also senses that the first steps require arbitrary faith or willing suspension of disbelief. He knows he needs to narrow his focus, center himself and become aware of internal, what could be called, spiritual strength.

He starts to see how he must be embracing and transcending of: certainty/doubt, focus/breadth, idealism/realism, tolerance/contempt, stability/flexibility. He senses need for affirmation and incorporation of existential or logical polarities. He senses need to hold polarities in tension in the interest of Truth.

He begins to maintain meaning, coherence, and value while conscious of their partial, limited, and contradictable nature. He begins to understand symbol as symbols and acknowledges the time-place relativity of them. He begins to affirm and hold absolutes in symbols while still acknowledging them to be relativistic. He begins to embrace viewpoints in conflict with his own. Now the person has a field-independent learning style, has learned to scan for information, accepts that hierarchical and analytic notes are evidence of sharpening of cognition. He is willing to take risks, is flexible, perceptive, broad, strategy-minded, and analytical.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[SamIam]

Or, maybe, they ask themselves whether this idea of "spiritual growth" is growth at all or, if it is, whether there are better ways. Unfortunately, you seem to think that religion is a bigger thing that it really is. People in the "crisis of faith" don't need formulaic advice but novelty; intellectual stimulation not reasonless revelation.Or maybe it is this attitude of "behave well and you'll get the candy at the end" that is tired to some.Which should give you a hint that they are getting, in a sense, just plainly bored with a "pray harder" approach.I submit to you that it is the knee-jerk reaction to uncertainty and taking lightly the troubles of the human condition (in the existential sense) that is what prevents Mormons from being profound.Perhaps you want to ask, why should we end it in the first place? What is so worthy about faith that merits the "drowning" of your doubts instead of letting them speak and taking what they have to say as seriously as possible?

The timing of your response could not be more perfect. The process under discussion is one that always draws out different types of opposition. Seemingly from nowhere the forces are marshaled that stand in opposition to God and his plan. When we as individuals determine that we are actually going to pursue this very personal process of seeking the spiritual growth and experiences promised in the scriptures it will be the same.

We have seen a couple of potential distractions even in the development of this thread. Very logical perspectives that encourage the intellectual distancing from matters of the spirit and bring it into the realm of a purely mental exercise of finite comprehensibility, such as the Fowler and Perry discussion, are, in their way, stumbling blocks to the fulfillment of this process. I'm not intending to be harsh but simply instructive as to the types of things that may undermine our efforts. These are only distractions, though they may be adequate to divert one from the sincere application of the pure desires of the heart that must be manifest as we plead for the specific blessings we seek. It is not that there is anything inherently wrong for these types of discussion and evaluation in the normal course of dialogue but that this particular effort, of being born again, must be honed to a single-minded unassailable focus and when sincerely engaged should be managed to minimize the influences that might mitigate the genuineness of our effort. As fathomable as the experience may be portrayed, it is beyond the point of comprehension until one has engaged the process with complete and utter sincerity.

We have observed simple distraction that pulls people away from the point of discussion and engages in endless debates that seek to make an offender for a word. You’ll note that indeed the mental focus for some then shifts to trying to engage these others in the defense of particular tangents not germane and certainly which must be quickly identified if one is not going to be drawn off course. We cannot permit ourselves to be distracted in the process by engaging and fuelling a spirit of contention. Sometimes, it may take us a minute to catch on as it did me with the discussion with Ahab but once identified, one can walk away from the process and let it be so that the spirit of contention does not serve to dilute the presence of the spirit we truly seek. Simply encouraging the contentious spirit will cause a distance to develop in our own minds and we will be less sensitive to the things of the spirit.

This response that you have crafted Alvino is actually a level down from the intellectual and distracting and falls into the realm of outright condemnation of matters of the spirit. You obviously captured Tacenda’s full support as she has seconded your perspective. She was and is also drawn to the intellectual discussion and we could expect that as well. The level of introspection that is required, for some people, is more easily denied as a plausible requirement by fueling our doubts, which are the most obvious enemies of the matters of the spirit. They negate even planting the seed and so your post serves as a type and a warning for those who might actually believe that God is a rewarded of them that diligently seek him. They must be prepared to have their efforts assailed and ridiculed and demeaned as childish and the efforts of the hopelessly deluded who are too silly to be taken seriously.

Nonetheless, these types of opposition are evidence of the rightness of the course, for one can fully expect that when one is actually engaged in correct principles of spiritual improvement there will occur myriad and sundry efforts from the most diverse of sources and perspectives that are designed to deter from the effort. Recognizing that spiritual reality should only confirm the rightness of the path and instead of creating doubt should only further strengthen the resolve to go the distance. No matter that the final acquisition of the blessings may be anywhere from hours to years down the road.

Thank you for the real to the process example of what the sincere in heart must expect and for which they must be prepared, if they are to overcome the obstacles that may distract them, if they are not vigilant and single-minded in their efforts.

Edited September 21, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Someone needs to give Kevin a rep point to get him off of the dreaded 666. I tried to, but am currently maxed out.

Your wish is granted.....

[Alvino]

The timing of your response could not be more perfect. The process under discussion is one that always draws out different types of opposition. Seemingly from nowhere the forces are marshaled that stand in opposition to God and his plan. When we as individuals determine that we are actually going to pursue this very personal process of seeking the spiritual growth and experiences promised in the scriptures it will be the same.

We have seen a couple of potential distractions even in the development of this thread. Very logical perspectives that encourage the intellectual distancing from matters of the spirit and bring it into the realm of a purely mental exercise of finite comprehensibility, such as the Fowler and Perry discussion, are, in their way, stumbling blocks to the fulfillment of this process. I'm not intending to be harsh but simply instructive as to the types of things that may undermine our efforts. These are only distractions, though they may be adequate to divert one from the sincere application of the pure desires of the heart that must be manifest as we plead for the specific blessings we seek. It is not that there is anything inherently wrong for these types of discussion and evaluation in the normal course of dialogue but that this particular effort, of being born again, must be honed to a single-minded unassailable focus and when sincerely engaged should be managed to minimize the influences that might mitigate the genuineness of our effort. As fathomable as the experience may be portrayed, it is beyond the point of comprehension until one has engaged the process with complete and utter sincerity.

We have observed simple distraction that pulls people away from the point of discussion and engages in endless debates that seek to make an offender for a word. You’ll note that indeed the mental focus for some then shifts to trying to engage these others in the defense of particular tangents not germane and certainly which must be quickly identified if one is not going to be drawn off course. We cannot permit ourselves to be distracted in the process by engaging and fuelling a spirit of contention. Sometimes, it may take us a minute to catch on as it did me with the discussion with Ahab but once identified, one can walk away from the process and let it be so that the spirit of contention does not serve to dilute the presence of the spirit we truly seek. Simply encouraging the contentious spirit will cause a distance to develop in our own minds and we will be less sensitive to the things of the spirit.

This response that you have crafted Alvino is actually a level down from the intellectual and distracting and falls into the realm of outright condemnation of matters of the spirit. You obviously captured Tacenda’s full support as she has seconded your perspective. She was and is also drawn to the intellectual discussion and we could expect that as well. The level of introspection that is required, for some people, is more easily denied as a plausible requirement by fueling our doubts, which are the most obvious enemies of the matters of the spirit. They negate even planting the seed and so your post serves as a type and a warning for those who might actually believe that God is a rewarded of them that diligently seek him. They must be prepared to have their efforts assailed and ridiculed and demeaned as childish and the efforts of the hopelessly deluded who are too silly to be taken seriously.

Nonetheless, these types of opposition are evidence of the rightness of the course, for one can fully expect that when one is actually engaged in correct principles of spiritual improvement there will occur myriad and sundry efforts from the most diverse of sources and perspectives that are designed to deter from the effort. Recognizing that spiritual reality should only confirm the rightness of the path and instead of creating doubt should only further strengthen the resolve to go the distance. No matter that the final acquisition of the blessings may be anywhere from hours to years down the road.

Thank you for the real to the process example of what the sincere in heart must expect and for which they must be prepared, if they are to overcome the obstacles that may distract them, if they are not vigilant and single-minded in their efforts.

1. All I see here is "Don't think! Just follow!"

2. You ignored the content of what I said. I took what you said very seriously and found it wanting and told you why. Would you do the same with the content of what I said beyond thinking I'm calling your hopes "deluded, too silly to be taken seriously"? Is this the level of conversation you want to be having here? How naive do you think it looks to others when you suggest that others who disagree with you are attacking you because you must right? Get serious now!

[SamIam]

1. All I see here is "Don't think! Just follow!"

2. You ignored the content of what I said. I took what you said very seriously and found it wanting and told you why. Would you do the same with the content of what I said beyond thinking I'm calling your hopes "deluded, too silly to be taken seriously"? Is this the level of conversation you want to be having here? How naive do you think it looks to others when you suggest that others who disagree with you are attacking you because you must right? Get serious now!

Alvino, I'm not discounting you nor your observations. If you do a bit of research on my historical postings you will find that few are willing to engage in conversation and response to viewpoints more than I have done in a majority of my other interactions. However, I started this, my first ever thread, for a particular reason and for a particular audience of what traditionally is a small group of people, even perhaps just one. Your post transcends its contents to represent a condition that furthers my efforts to dialogue and illustrate by example certain key, consistent and observable phenomenon that true believers will encounter as they embrace the process to which I am speaking.

In this way, I acknowledge you for what I think is the greatest purpose that you were lead here to illustrate. You have performed well your part and provide a clear and decisive pattern for the continued education of the few that might have ears to hear and eyes to see a small example of what it is to begin in earnest the process of being born again. They will be attacked , distracted, and otherwise tempted to leave the path of the process. It will be a hard won battle and the rewards are even profoundly greater.

There is a principle in the church of acting or being acted upon. I have simply chosen to act consistent with the intent of this thread and not permit you to act upon me to diminish the value of this process by engaging you at your level of influence, which is to undermine the matters of the spirit. In this way I hope to also illustrate a pattern that, if one is not overwhelmed by the efforts to distract, one can stay the course of their desires independent of all that will be tossed at them and stay focused on what needs to be accomplished in the quest for the cleansing experience that the Lord promises. It is impossible to proclaim a desire to be clean if all along the way I sully the effort with ugly behaviors of contention and conflict thus burdening the soul with impurity.

For your benefit I will explain that when I first read your response I felt strongly to address each of your observations. That is my nature. However, I put that aside and sought for what I should do and the voice of the spirit, which is the goal of understanding herein, produced the other response. I noted that, which I had not noted before, that this was a model designed to teach the points I discussed in my post. It was not a challenge to any of the individuals who provided the examples I cited – they were simply the instructional illustrations that served a better purpose than I originally recognized.

Again, please be assured that I do take you very seriously. It is just that for this particular thread, it is not the appropriate time to introduce the type of back and forth exchange that would drive the spirit out of this effort. I invite you to reread the thread from the beginning and while that will not be your first impulse the only way to understand it is to put ourselves aside and seek the Lords way. You have indicated that you took my comments very seriously. Did you take them seriously enough to consider how you might apply them in your life? The quotes that have been selected throughout amply provide the insight to answer the questions you have and my response will be precisely consistent with what I have already provided. Thank you again, for the valuable contributions you have made.

Edited September 21, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

I agree completely and as you imply the absence is as apparent as the endowment of the spirit. I would love to hear your formula for the EVENT or the PROCESS and what you think the FRUITS are to it?

I was going to try to write up everything with quotes and verses but it will become long and unwieldy. So I'm just going to try to encapsulate the objectives of the first phase.

There are the two phases: Receiving the Holy Ghost or the first comforter and receiving the Second comforter – Jesus Christ. Since the second is only possible upon the first that is really all I feel to express at this time.

Receiving the Holy Ghost - This is where so many, far too many, wander in the mists of darkness for much too long. While it can be a very quick process, for most of us it is a process of time – again mostly because we aren’t focused on being obedient to the Lord. The process of receiving the Holy Ghost is based on a process of hearing and then being obedient to the instructions of the spirit. Thus after baptism it is the very first instruction that God gives a new member. He commands that we are to receive the Holy Ghost. If we are listening, or when we eventually hear that becomes the single most important objective of our hearts – to be obedient to the very first thing he told us to do. Thereafter the test of our obedience must continues as is observed in this quote:

Due to the nature of fallen man, a true revealed religion must of necessity be miraculous in its nature. The knowledge, blessings, communications, and powers of a heavenly, divine system have to be extraterrestrial. The power and the knowledge to save fallen mankind must come from outside the earth itself; outside of us ourselves. It cannot originate with us. It must come from God, or there can be no salvation or redemption in it. Hence God tests his children by asking them to do something entirely outside of the natural style of mortality. All of the commandments of God are that way. Baptism, ordination, faith, sacrifice, prayer, repentance, obedience to specified commandments, personal cleanliness of thought, etc.—all are contrary to what comes naturally to us. Acts of obedience are responses that we must learn and do deliberately; they cannot happen by chance, happenstance, or accident. And obeying the commandments is not the kind of thing we would do naturally. Doing what comes naturally does not lead to celestial glory and godhood. Only by doing what is not natural, because of our faith, do we find salvation. We wouldn’t consistently keep all the commandments if we didn’t have faith, and that is why we can see the truth of Paul’s declaration, “Without faith it is impossible to please [God]” (Heb. 11:6). (Robert J. Matthews, http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/lectures-faith-historical-perspective/discussion-lecture-6-great-faith-obtained-only-though)

So, if obedience is the order of the day and we are not by nature inclined to such this next portion is really all I have to say as if understood it gets us to the point of receiving the Holy Ghost. Once that takes place our goal becomes being obedient to the personal course of study and obedience that it will guide us through.

As it is our nature to want to be our own masters, of course we must subject our wills to the Lords will. There is so much written on this material that if someone is interested they will find it out. However, there is one point that for me has been very critical and I was slow to realize it’s power and capacity for change and so I put this thought out here for now.

Then we need to establish the discipline to live faithful to our covenants, fully using the weekly gift of the sacrament. Many of us are not being regularly changed by its cleansing power because of our lack of reverence for this holy ordinance. (Converted to His Gospel through His Church. By Elder Donald L. Hallstrom Quorum of Seventy, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/converted-to-his-gospel-through-his-church?lang=eng )

Elder Hallstrom points to a thought here that, I think I have heard at various points over the years but not perceived the depth of what he was stating. The aspect of being changed by the sacrament, I suspected was simply maintaining worthiness from week to week and partaking of the sacrament. However, Elder Robert D. Hales added an entirely new dimension that has been very important in this process. We actually have to plan and focus and have generated in our hearts powerful desire to become changed and the Sacrament is the key ordinance where this can occur. We must recognize that we are what we are and have not the ability to be what we need to be. So we need a catalyst, something that acts in such a way as to alter and change who we are. To this ends Elder Hales recommends the following:

To worthily partake of the sacrament, we remember that we are renewing the covenant we made at baptism. For the sacrament to be a spiritually cleansing experience each week, we need to prepare ourselves before coming to sacrament meeting. We do this by deliberately leaving behind our daily work and recreation and letting go of worldly thoughts and concerns. As we do, we make room in our minds and hearts for the Holy Ghost.

Then we are prepared to ponder on the Atonement. More than just thinking about the facts of the Savior’s suffering and death, our pondering helps us to recognize that through the Savior’s sacrifice, we have the hope, opportunity, and strength to make real, heartfelt changes in our lives.

As we sing the sacrament hymn, participate in the sacrament prayers, and partake of the emblems of His flesh and blood, we prayerfully seek forgiveness for our sins and shortcomings. We think about the promises we made and kept during the previous week and make specific personal commitments to follow the Savior during the coming week. Coming to Ourselves: The Sacrament, the Temple, and Sacrifice in Service By Elder Robert D. Hales, http://www.lds.org/ensign/print/2012/05/coming-to-ourselves-the-sacrament-the-temple-and-sacrifice-in-service?lang=eng&clang=eng )

Pondering upon the changes that are required to enable the spirit to dwell in us was something I approached as a will power kind of thing. However, after realizing this process of actually preparing and earnestly focusing on specifically changing the behaviors that I knew needed changed and using the sacrament as a tool of that change has made a remarkable difference.

A second thing that I had to realize is kind of a very basic thing but I had never quite grasped it clearly. Over the years in baptism interviews, and other worthiness interviews we confess our sins and forsake them but I had not made a strong enough connection to the fact that though we confess them to the servants of the Lord they are not the ones that actually extend forgiveness. I know we all know that but one day it clicked after reading an Ezra Taft Benson statement where he asks, what was Enos doing for those many hours of his prayer - he was confessing his sins. I realized the exactness of the expectation that though I may have thought by confession I had dealt with everything, I needed to actually seek the Saviors forgiveness. I know, it seems like such a basic principle, but I pled and pleaded and wrote down everything the spirit brought to my mind and found several things that needed attention from many years ago and addressed them..

I’ll stop here as these are the two tangibles that we can actually ponder on and do that were very important to me.

[SamIam]

I agree completely and as you imply the absence is as apparent as the endowment of the spirit. I would love to hear your formula for the EVENT or the PROCESS and what you think the FRUITS are to it?

I was going to try to write up everything with quotes and verses but it will become long and unwieldy. So I'm just going to try to encapsulate the objectives of the first phase.

There are the two phases: Receiving the Holy Ghost or the first comforter and receiving the Second comforter – Jesus Christ. Since the second is only possible upon the first that is really all I feel to express at this time.

Receiving the Holy Ghost - This is where so many, far too many, wander in the mists of darkness for much too long. While it can be a very quick process, for most of us it is a process of time – again mostly because we aren’t focused on being obedient to the Lord. The process of receiving the Holy Ghost is based on a process of hearing and then being obedient to the instructions of the spirit. Thus after baptism it is the very first instruction that God gives a new member. He commands that we are to receive the Holy Ghost. If we are listening, or when we eventually hear that becomes the single most important objective of our hearts – to be obedient to the very first thing he told us to do. Thereafter the test of our obedience must continues as is observed in this quote:

Due to the nature of fallen man, a true revealed religion must of necessity be miraculous in its nature. The knowledge, blessings, communications, and powers of a heavenly, divine system have to be extraterrestrial. The power and the knowledge to save fallen mankind must come from outside the earth itself; outside of us ourselves. It cannot originate with us. It must come from God, or there can be no salvation or redemption in it. Hence God tests his children by asking them to do something entirely outside of the natural style of mortality. All of the commandments of God are that way. Baptism, ordination, faith, sacrifice, prayer, repentance, obedience to specified commandments, personal cleanliness of thought, etc.—all are contrary to what comes naturally to us. Acts of obedience are responses that we must learn and do deliberately; they cannot happen by chance, happenstance, or accident. And obeying the commandments is not the kind of thing we would do naturally. Doing what comes naturally does not lead to celestial glory and godhood. Only by doing what is not natural, because of our faith, do we find salvation. We wouldn’t consistently keep all the commandments if we didn’t have faith, and that is why we can see the truth of Paul’s declaration, “Without faith it is impossible to please [God]” (Heb. 11:6). (Robert J. Matthews,

http://rsc.byu.edu/a...ned-only-though

)

So, if obedience is the order of the day and we are not by nature inclined to such this next portion is really all I have to say as if understood it gets us to the point of receiving the Holy Ghost. Once that takes place our goal becomes being obedient to the personal course of study and obedience that it will guide us through.

As it is our nature to want to be our own masters, of course we must subject our wills to the Lords will. There is so much written on this material that if someone is interested they will find it out. However, there is one point that for me has been very critical and I was slow to realize it’s power and capacity for change and so I put this thought out here for now.

Then we need to establish the discipline to live faithful to our covenants, fully using the weekly gift of the sacrament.

Many of us are not being regularly changed by its cleansing power because of our lack of reverence for this holy ordinance.

(Converted to His Gospel through His Church. By Elder Donald L. Hallstrom Quorum of Seventy,

https://www.lds.org/...church?lang=eng

)

Elder Hallstrom points to a thought here that, I think I have heard at various points over the years but not perceived the depth of what he was stating. The aspect of being changed by the sacrament, I suspected was simply maintaining worthiness from week to week and partaking of the sacrament. However, Elder Robert D. Hales added an entirely new dimension that has been very important in this process. We actually have to plan and focus and have generated in our hearts powerful desire to become changed and the Sacrament is the key ordinance where this can occur. We must recognize that we are what we are and have not the ability to be what we need to be. So we need a catalyst, something that acts in such a way as to alter and change who we are. To this ends Elder Hales recommends the following:

To worthily partake of the sacrament, we remember that we are renewing the covenant we made at baptism.

For the sacrament to be a spiritually cleansing experience each week,

we need to prepare ourselves

before coming to sacrament meeting.

We do this by deliberately

leaving behind our daily work and recreation and letting go of worldly thoughts and concerns. As we do, we make room in our minds and hearts for the Holy Ghost.

Then we are prepared to ponder on the Atonement.

More than just thinking about the facts of the Savior’s suffering and death,

our pondering helps us to recognize that through the Savior’s sacrifice, we have the hope, opportunity, and strength to make real, heartfelt changes in our lives.

As we sing the sacrament hymn, participate in the sacrament prayers, and partake of the emblems of His flesh and blood, we prayerfully seek forgiveness for our sins and shortcomings. We think about the promises we made and kept during the previous week and make specific personal commitments to follow the Savior during the coming week. Coming to Ourselves: The Sacrament, the Temple, and Sacrifice in Service By Elder Robert D. Hales,

http://www.lds.org/e...g=eng&clang=eng

)

Pondering upon the changes that are required to enable the spirit to dwell in us was something I approached as a will power kind of thing. However, after realizing this process of actually preparing and earnestly focusing on specifically changing the behaviors that I knew needed changed and using the sacrament as a tool of that change has made a remarkable difference.

A second thing that I had to realize is kind of a very basic thing but I had never quite grasped it clearly. Over the years in baptism interviews, and other worthiness interviews we confess our sins and forsake them but I had not made a strong enough connection to the fact that though we confess them to the servants of the Lord they are not the ones that actually extend forgiveness. I know we all know that but one day it clicked after reading an Ezra Taft Benson statement where he asks, what was Enos doing for those many hours of his prayer - he was confessing his sins. I realized the exactness of the expectation that though I may have thought by confession I had dealt with everything, I needed to actually seek the Saviors forgiveness. I know, it seems like such a basic principle, but I pleaded and wrote down everything the spirit brought to my mind and found several things that needed attention from many years ago and addressed them. Then I took the list of all of these things and plead to my Heavenly Father for forgiveness for each of them individually .

I’ll stop here as these are the two tangibles that we can actually ponder on and do that were very important to me.

Edited September 22, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

I agree completely and as you imply the absence is as apparent as the endowment of the spirit. I would love to hear your formula for the EVENT or the PROCESS and what you think the FRUITS are to it?

Just a short blip on specifics of the fruits. There are of course the changes in our nature that can be made by using the sacrament and the atonement as tools of change. However, It is not a nebulas process without markers that can help us see what is going on. It really just comes down to recognizing that the scriptures in certain things are actually literal and not figurative.

In the process of receiving the Holy Ghost it is precisely just as Enos outlines, though again the time and nature varies by individual. We should be powerfully moved upon by our desire to repent of our sins. This will be emphasized by the spirit causing us to grow in genuine abhorrence of our transgression and an increased earnestness to plead with the Savior for their remission.

The process goes from feeling the impressions of the Holy Ghost, and being obedient to these. Then we continue to focus and these impression grows in clarity until from time to time and in an increasing fashion we are noting that we are hearing an actual spiritual voice in our prayers and thoughts At first many are wondering, is it me or is it the Holy Ghost that is the voice they are hearing. Simply earnestly pray to know the difference and as you actually follow the promptings it will clarify and you will have times where you actually recognize the difference clearly. Be prepared to write down and develop spiritual insights and be especially obedient. This really is more than anything else a test to see if we will do all that the Lord commands us when the Lord commands us.

Soon enough the promptings will remain but the frequency of the voice will continue to grow. This is not a physical sensation per se. It does not pass the ears and enter the mind, but instead is the spirit communicating with our spirit. Focusing on the physical senses does not further this effort. It is the spiritual senses that are to be honed.

Over time we will find the spirit’s voice directing our ponderings as we record it’s promptings in our studies. We will begin to sense it more clearly as we simply become better at hearing it. It is very quiet but we just become more capable of sensing it with clarity.

Thereafter we can actually engage in dialogue with the spirit. Asking questions and receiving answers. This also will increase in frequency. This again is the general order of things, though some may cover this distance in moments most will require much more effort. As each of these steps becomes more tangible we are sensing more and more that the Lord is hearing our prayers and giving us answers. Our faith is increased and at some point we should clearly understand that our sins are forgiven and we will continue to receive instruction from this point that will lead us back into the presence of the Savior. When we receive the remission of our sins it is a tangible feeling to have your guilt swept away. You do not feel you are forgiven, you do not think you are forgiven – you know you are forgiven. Your heart and very being will be changed and you will be filled with the spirit. The scriptures will become far more alive and clear to you and the clarity of the voice of the spirit will increase and you will speak and teach with power concerning spiritual matters or as instructed by the Lord.

Again these are tangible fruits and mark the place along the path. Inspiration - obedience, a voice – obedience, a more clear voice – obedience. If all spiritual instruction is met with obedience this process moves right along. A remission comes and then specific other blessings mentioned above and in scriptures are realized.

Edited September 22, 2012 by SamIam

[wenglund]

The process of receiving the Holy Ghost is based on a process of hearing and then being obedient to the instructions of the spirit. Thus after baptism it is the very first instruction that God gives a new member. He commands that we are to receive the Holy Ghost. If we are listening, or when we eventually hear that becomes the single most important objective of our hearts – to be obedient to the very first thing he told us to do. Thereafter the test of our obedience must continues as is observed in this quote:

Excellent post.

However, while the term "obedience" is useful, I instead prefer the term "living" because to me it comes across somewhat less mechanistic and encompasses far more than "obedience."

I mention this because I have seen not a few members who have been extremely diligent in their obedience, yet who have been emptied and left exhausted and unfulfilled perhaps because of or in spite their obedience.

I believe this may occur in part when good people are obedient for obedience sake and not for the sake of joy and edification and progression towards becoming like Christ. They may have been faithfully going through the motions but absent healthy emotions, and sadly in many cases, it has killed their faith and to some extent their spirit.

Whereas, those who strive to "live" the gospel are obedient, though they aren't obedient for obedience sake, but are obedient because (and when) it expands their soles--even, at times, when "living" the gospel may, in the short run, be unpleasant and engender sorrow. And, they may rightly, at times, be disobedient when obedience in certain instances may be deleterious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[SamIam]

Excellent post.

However, while the term "obedience" is useful, I instead prefer the term "living" because to me it comes across somewhat less mechanistic and encompasses far more than "obedience."

I mention this because I have seen not a few members who have been extremely diligent in their obedience, yet who have been emptied and left exhausted and unfulfilled perhaps because of or in spite their obedience.

I believe this may occur in part when good people are obedient for obedience sake and not for the sake of joy and edification and progression towards becoming like Christ. They may have been faithfully going through the motions but absent healthy emotions, and sadly in many cases, it has killed their faith and to some extent their spirit.

Whereas, those who strive to "live" the gospel are obedient, though they aren't obedient for obedience sake, but are obedient because (and when) it expands their soles--even, at times, when "living" the gospel may, in the short run, be unpleasant and engender sorrow. And, they may rightly, at times, be disobedient when obedience in certain instances may be deleterious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well stated. I like the distinction of living versus obedience. It does describe accurately the nuance of what is actually required to be obedient with the correct focus.

You also have brought to the forefront a very critical observation. That of intent. If we pursue this goal because we seek it for our own selves, to be born again for our sense of acceptability to God, or for our salvation our intent remains too self oriented. I believe this to be one of the greatest obstacles for many of those who try and fail in the pursuit of the objective. While the distinction may be difficult to parse, our hearts have to be focused on our hope to be of full service to our God and the benefit of the Kingdom of God. As this process advances and we are actually progressing, our hearts should be turned more and more towards God's objectives and not our own. It is the same ends that may be sought by both intents but only the one produces enough heart felt sense of our distance from God because of our natures and the great desire to be cleaned from that which renders us of little use to the Kingdom. This yearning feeds the hunger that produces adequate desire to wrestle with God as did Enos.

Thanks Wade.

Edited September 22, 2012 by SamIam

[wenglund]

Well stated. I like the distinction of living versus obedience. It does describe accurately the nuance of what is actually required to be obedient with the correct focus.

You also have brought to the forefront a very critical observation. That of intent. If we pursue this goal because we seek it for our own selves, to be born again for our sense of acceptability to God, or for our salvation our intent remains too self oriented. I believe this to be one of the greatest obstacles for many of those who try and fail in the pursuit of the objective. While the distinction may be difficult to parse, our hearts have to be focused on our hope to be of full service to our God and the benefit of the Kingdom of God. As this process advances and we are actually progressing, our hearts should be turned more and more towards God's objectives and not our own. It is the same ends that may be sought by both intents but only the one produces enough heart felt sense of our distance from God because of our natures and the great desire to be cleaned from that which renders us of little use to the Kingdom. This yearning feeds the hunger that produces adequate desire to wrestle with God as did Enos.

Thanks Wade.

Yup. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in the drudgery of marking off our obedience check lists that we forget that the gospel is really all about joy and loving relationships and making bad men good and good men better. If members are miserable as members it may be because their view and approach to the gospel is miserable--i.e. they aren't using the gospel to the end and in the way it is intended.

Of course I am speak on balance since the human condition isn't intended to always be rosy.

The key criteria for assessment, then, is reasonable progression towards Christ. If we as members aren't progressing in joy and love and goodness at a reasonable rate and over a reasonable period of time, then we need to reevaluate our view and approach to the gospel--including why and whether we obey.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[HiJolly]

Wonderful thread, Samlam.

HiJolly