How Do We Get Out Of The Crisis Of Faith Dead End?

[SamIam]

Sometimes I wonder why people seem to spin in circles not getting out of a pattern of thinking that is not inclined to provide spiritual growth. I have wondered if perhaps it is because they loose sight of the objectives that mark degrees of progress so that they can sort of determine where they are in the process.

Article of faith four provides the outline of a initial goal structure. First faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, second, repentance, third baptism , fourth the receiving of the Holy Ghost. However, these are called the first principles of the Gospel for a reason. Is there something more tangible we should be striving for as these are achieved? After these first principles so many people loose a sense of direction. Many no longer have a list to work from and seem to spin between the state of achieving baptism and then not achieving the receipt of the Holy Ghost or perhaps in some few instances receiving the baptism of fire but not knowing what to expect or strive for next.

The extreme reach is of course the Brother of Jared experience where one is brought into the presence of Christ. However, what are the stepping stones along the way that mark our own progress towards that ultimate goal. Frequently members spin on points of wonderment and doubt and question the credibility of sacred records. They toss and turn over every point of history feeding the fires of their testimony with wet wood which creates the smoking billows of a fire in trouble.

It almost seems to indicate that the objectives are lost. The behavior shows one that is still seeking and that is good, but that they haven't an idea of what patterns they should be seeking to continue the spiritual growth that will drown doubts and insecurity and actually continue a process of forward spiritual development. To that ends I start this thread.

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

3.) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

Edited September 18, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Let's consider what I think has been made clear in recent conferences over the past few years. There is a theme of spiritual preparation that has replaced the commentaries on temporal preparations. The one years supply of food has diminished as a point of focus and achieving the state of being spiritually prepared has taken a much more specific and stronger point of focus.

Over the years though, we have received some very good directive material on where the transitional point truly is that hastens us down the path away from those condemning crisis of faith moments. Perhaps it is because this point is not well understood. So I provide a couple of thoughts to consider.

“If one does not receive the great gift of the Holy Ghost, then it is his fault that he hasn't been spiritual enough or close enough to heavenly Father” (Spencer W. Kimball, “Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball” p22-23, as quoted in “Doctrines of the Gospel” student manual p45)

Some do not realize that the act of confirmation is for most not the same point of receipt of the Holy Ghost. The receipt generally is sometime following. Consider this thought By Joseph Fielding Smith:

“All members of the Church are enjoined at their confirmation to “receive the Holy Ghost.”

Those who receive Him become Saints; those who do not are halted in their progression toward the kingdom of God

. “We have a great many members of this Church who have never received a manifestation through the Holy Ghost. Why? Because they have not made their lives conform to the truth.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “We Are Here to Be Tried, Tested, Proved,” BYU Speeches, October 1961.)

Many live under the impression that because of the confirmation at their baptism, that they have received the Holy Ghost. They fail to understand and seek it's changing influence according to the commandment to "receive the Holy Ghost." For many, this is the most common point of spinning that seems to cause these faith crisis moments. They perceive they have something as members that others as non-members do not possess. Yet as Joseph Fielding Smith points out there are many that as members barely can lay much claim to something more than a non-member might have. So many people linger in the realms of thinking they have something for which they cannot identify the fruits of achievement in their lives to validate its receipt. Driven, to search for something, often it seems they search in the realms of men for confirmation of the truth of their decision to follow Christ. They do not realize that the truth they seek can only be bought upon their true receipt of the Holy Ghost and the baptism of fire that is it's fruit.

“Purifying and sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise

constitute the culminating steps

in the process of being born again.” (Elder David A. Bednar, Ensign May 2007)

“We are

commanded and instructed to so live that our fallen nature is changed

through the sanctifying power of the Holy Ghost. President Marion G. Romney taught that.....“

The baptism of fire is the consummation

.” (Elder Dave Bednar, CR Oct 2007).

“Receiving the Holy ghost is the baptism by fire

which truly begins the process of becoming like Jesus.”

(Bruce C. Hafen, BYUI, Feb 2008)

This is perhaps one of the most significant statements for me. Elder Hafen's observation that we do not truly enter the path of becoming like Jesus Christ until after we have received the Holy Ghost is a powerful motivator. It imbues this next logical step with great significance and should make it clear what is the next step that we must be striving for if we are going to advance in a surety of understanding that will greatly diminish crisis of faith moments and their impact upon our spiritual progress. Why is this the next logical step? Why should this become the driving quest of all of our learning and efforts? How do we go about the process?....

A final thought upon the necessity of diligence in seeking this great blessing:

“This

baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost

here spoken of by Nephi (referring to 2 Nephi 31:17)

effects the great change in the hearts of men referred to by Alma (the mighty change)

.

It converts

them from carnality to spirituality,. It cleanses, heals, and purifies the soul. It is the sealing and sign of forgiveness.

It is the spiritual rebirth spoken of by Jesus

to Nicodemus. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and water baptism are all preliminary and prerequisite to it, but

it is the consummation

. To receive it is to have one's garments washed in the atoning blood of Christ.” (Elder Marion G. Romney, “Look to God and Live”, p. 269, the last sentence quoted by Elder David Bednar in CR Oct 2007).

Edited September 18, 2012 by SamIam

[sheilauk]

My goal (s?) post my confirmation are the three things which we are constantly exhorted to do - pray daily, study scriptures daily and attend Sacrament meetings every week. I've not managed to achieve it yet.

[SamIam]

My goal (s?) post my confirmation are the three things which we are constantly exhorted to do - pray daily, study scriptures daily and attend Sacrament meetings every week. I've not managed to achieve it yet.

These are indeed wonderful efforts. Yet, you initiate the basic efforts that many feel is the focus of their next step - To do more. The risk is that in our doing more we become guilty of the accusations often leveled against the members of the church, which sadly often are more true that we would like to claim.

My question is what is the fruit of the spirit that would be of most worth to you as you begin to embrace the activities of which you mention. What will make the struggle less a challenge and more of a genuine desire / need in your life?

I have moved this quote into this answer as you have provided the better place to consider the thought:

“This mighty change is not simply the result of working harder or developing greater individual discipline

. Rather, it is the consequence of a fundamental change in our desires, our motives, and our natures made possible through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. Our spiritual purpose is to overcome both sin and the desire to sin, both the taint and the tyranny of sin.” (Elder David A. Bednar Ensign November 2007)

How many of us operate on the principle of working harder and doing more as if this is the mark of our having received the Holy Ghost. We can lay claim to being more diligent in our home or visiting teaching. We draw a false sense of satisfaction perhaps because we are reading our scriptures more regularly. Perhaps markers along the way but are they the evidence of having received the born again experience?

So perhaps lets dig a little deeper into Enos 1 and his experience. Do you see some specific and identifiable fruits that you might specifically focus on as you engage in trying to read more, attend your meetings with more diligence, as you seek to increase your prayers...is there something more specific that you should be praying for that will add efficacy to your efforts?

Consider this thought again:

“This mighty change is not simply the result of working harder or developing greater individual discipline

. Rather, it is the consequence of a fundamental change in our desires, our motives, and our natures made possible through the Atonement of Christ the Lord. Our spiritual purpose is to overcome both sin and the desire to sin, both the taint and the tyranny of sin.” (Elder David A. Bednar Ensign November 2007)

How many of us operate on the principle of working harder and doing more as if this is the mark of our having received the Holy Ghost. We can lay claim to being more diligent in our home or visiting teaching. We draw a false sense of satisfaction perhaps because we are reading our scriptures more regularly. Perhaps markers along the way but are they the evidence of having received the born again experience? I am implying that the target is found in many places in scripture but very clearly in Enos 1. What specific blessings does he receive in his quest?

[DBMormon]

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

SamLam - good to see you. The answer for was discovering that it was ok that I didn't have answers to everything, that in fact I wasn't supposed to have answers on everything, that faith was required.

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

Not sure I have a good answer in the way you worded the question. For me it is about staying in covenant and understanding his grace and working with Christ to allow him to make weak things strong in my life.

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

Understanding Grace and the Doctrine of Christ. Focusing on the pure basics of the gospel.

Learning to focus on the gifts of the spirit

4) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

Are we in covenant? do have have Christ's countenance upon us?

Are we progressing? Are we a positive influence for bringing others unto Christ?

Edited September 18, 2012 by DBMormon

[CV75]

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

3.) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

1) I'm not so sure a crisis of faith is a momentary thing, or that the crisis is actually one of faith but rather one of intellect, emotion, material comfort, or other type of comfort zone. Ending the momentary darkness that comes with the Lord's testing, or with temptation and other confrontations with the adversary is a function of remembering the right thing to do and exercsing agency righteously. In the event of prolonged disruption, it is important to identify the nature of the crisis and not allow it to affect the faith necessary to endure to the end. In the event it is actually a faith crisis, one needs to muster up that particle of remaining faith and repent and remember that no one need ever be alone in their struggle.

2) We should be seeking and building on the spiritual experience of becoming as a child. Concurrently, we should be seeking the spiritual experieinces of obtaining and keeping a testimony of Jesus and a witness that the Gospel, the Book of Mormon, and the Restoration, and the true and living Church are real expressions of God's will for us (that they are true).

3) The conditions that allow us to become as a child are the Lord's Atonement and our receiving it in faith. The conditions that allow us to receive the testimonies are the Lord's will and our real intent.

4) I believe we can recognize where we are in comparison to where we were, but not in comparison to where we will be. I think a good barometer is how grateful we feel toward the Lord (I consider this a spiritual experience)--as our gratitude grows, we can be assured that we are growing in the right direction.

Edited September 18, 2012 by CV75

[SamIam]

Understanding Grace and the Doctrine of Christ. Focusing on the pure basics of the gospel.

Learning to focus on the gifts of the spirit

Are we in covenant? do have have Christ's countenance upon us?

Are we progressing? Are we a positive influence for bringing others unto Christ?

Let's hone in on this part of your response. Sometimes these types of questions - Are we in the covenant, Christ's countenance, progressing etc are very nebulous for most of us. We might answer them in the affirmative but more from a position of thinking we are in the right place or perhaps even just hoping we are in the right place however, is there a more definitive "I know" I am in the right place because the pattern of the scriptures has born the specific fruit that identifies the place where I am. We are dealing with the first marker of several that should be observable as we move towards coming into the presence of the Savior. However, it may be the most important so it bears some discussion.

There are several on this forum who illustrate the nature of the decline of understanding that permits them to collapse under the weight of a crisis of faith. What was missing that enabled this to take place? Often it seems that we could point to study, service, prayer, which did not achieve the end result of an actual receipt of the Holy Ghost but a misguided focus on other things that do not provide the sustaining power of the directive influences of the spirit. Some have sought for knowledge and have searched high and low and have genuinely become possessed of great knowledge, but lacking the focus of passing their efforts through the guidance of the spirit we find that their wealth of knowledge was not able to sustain them. Others have held positions of authority and were very diligent in executing their administrative functions yet they also were not sustained. These, and many of us I believe, made a mistake in not actually “receiving the Holy Ghost.”. President Benson makes a striking and clear observation as he points out some specifics of the Enos story:

First Presidency Message – Keys to Successful Member-Missionary Work,

President Ezra Taft Benson, Ensign, September 1990

“How do you obtain the Spirit? 'By the Prayer of faith,' says the Lord. Therefore, you must pray with sincerity and real intent. Pray for increased faith. Pray for the Spirit to accompany your teaching. Ask the Lord for forgiveness.

Your prayers must be offered in the same spirit and with the same fervor as were the prayers of Enos in the book of Mormon

….I only want to draw your attention to these verses. Enos testified: “I will tell you of the wrestle which I had before God before I received a remission of my sins.” He clarified that wrestle with God for us. Note the fervor in his petition: “My soul hungered…I kneeled down before my maker…I cried unto him in mighty prayer and supplication for mine own soul…all day long did I cry unto him.” (Enos 1:4, italics added.)

Then Enos testified: “there came a voice unto me, saying: Enos, thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou shalt be blessed…wherefore, my guilt was swept away.” (Enos 1:5,6) When he inquired of the Lord how this had been accomplished, the Lord answered him: “Because of thy faith in Christ…thy faith hath made thee whole.” (Enos 1:8, italics added.) Enos was spiritually healed.

Through his mighty supplication to God, he experienced what the faithful of any dispensation can, do, and must experience if they are to see God and be filled with His Spirit.

Become acquainted with Enos and the entire Book of Mormon, the greatest book in the world—a new witness for Christ. It is written for us today. This I know.”

We must keep in mind that President Benson is speaking to the body of the church, and he is pointing out that they must verify that a particular experience has actually taken place. They cannot believe, they cannot think it has occurred – all of these common tendencies point to the probability that what he is referencing did not occur - instead they must know it has occurred. Reread the quote and feel what he is emphasizing. He wants us to realize that it is a wrestle with God, a physical and spiritual engagement of our whole heart and soul with a single goal of receiving a REMISSION of our sins. He wants us to feel a genuine hunger. Remember Enos is a long time member of the Church and a very good man. A son of prophets and this experience only occurs because he has realized that he wants to have the experience of knowing he is forgiven. So with every fiber of his being he pleads and begs and sorrows seeking true knowledge of the Lord. He puts his whole heart and soul into a process that most of us think we have achieved with only 1/10^th the effort.. What does this statement by President Benson make you think concerning what is required to actually receive the Holy Ghost?

[rameumptom]

A major problem is that we gain a spiritual testimony, and then think that is all that is needed. We become comfortable with having the Spirit on a certain level, and seek no more of it on a higher level.

Yet, as with Christ, we are supposed to go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93). It isn't prayer, scripture study, and attending meetings that bring the Spirit. It is reaching out with our whole soul in prayer, searching and seeking in the scriptures, and renewing covenants with the Sacrament that bring us to greater levels of the Spirit. For many, it means going beyond their comfort zone, or they are afraid of what the Lord may tell them to do.

Have you met anyone who intentionally kept their spiritual growth at a minimum, because they did not want to be a bishop, or a Relief Society president? I have. There are many many more who do this, without realizing they are limiting themselves out of fear or laziness.

So, the question is: what do we personally need to do to increase the Spirit's influence over us?

[Ahab]

We must keep in mind that President Benson is speaking to the body of the church, and he is pointing out that they must verify that a particular experience has actually taken place. They cannot believe, they cannot think it has occurred – all of these common tendencies point to the probability that what he is referencing did not occur - instead they must know it has occurred. Reread the quote and feel what he is emphasizing. He wants us to realize that it is a wrestle with God, a physical and spiritual engagement of our whole heart and soul with a single goal of receiving a REMISSION of our sins. He wants us to feel a genuine hunger. Remember Enos is a long time member of the Church and a very good man. A son of prophets and this experience only occurs because he has realized that he wants to have the experience of knowing he is forgiven. So with every fiber of his being he pleads and begs and sorrows seeking true knowledge of the Lord. He puts his whole heart and soul into a process that most of us think we have achieved with only 1/10^th the effort.. What does this statement by President Benson make you think concerning what is required to actually receive the Holy Ghost?

It's not just about receiving the Holy Ghost. Enos was focusing on finding out if his sins had been forgiven, rather than just seeking an assurance from God about something else through the power of the Holy Ghost. Lots and lots of us receiving assurances from the Holy Ghost to let us know certain things are true, but still don't know their sins have been forgiven.

It's kind of odd, isn't it. It doesn't seem so hard for us to know the Holy Ghost is testifying to us to let us know Jesus is the Christ, or that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or that the Book of Mormon is true, or that the Church is true, or this or that or the other thing, but how many of us really know our sins have been forgiven, up to the moment, even though there have been times when we've done some things we knew we shouldn't have been doing?

I think the battle is mainly with ourselves, as we're talking with God, from the deepest part of ourselves, personally. We have to know he's listening, otherwise we wouldn't be talking to him, but does he really forgive us for all of our sins, even though we seem to have a pattern of messing up, regularly? We can feel like we have repented, to at least some extent, but are our efforts to repent really enough? Did we actually get to the point where we are forgiven, and are now worthy of the Celestial kingdom? Really? Can we really know that just as much as we can know anything?

Someday we'll get to the point where we stop beating ourselves up while knowing we have been forgiven, and until then, we won't know. And even when we do know, we'll still need to keep doing whatever it took for us to receive forgiveness. We do have to do something, you know, otherwise the atonement would not apply to us.

[SamIam]

A major problem is that we gain a spiritual testimony, and then think that is all that is needed. We become comfortable with having the Spirit on a certain level, and seek no more of it on a higher level.

Yet, as with Christ, we are supposed to go from grace to grace, receiving grace for grace (D&C 93). It isn't prayer, scripture study, and attending meetings that bring the Spirit. It is reaching out with our whole soul in prayer, searching and seeking in the scriptures, and renewing covenants with the Sacrament that bring us to greater levels of the Spirit. For many, it means going beyond their comfort zone, or they are afraid of what the Lord may tell them to do.

Have you met anyone who intentionally kept their spiritual growth at a minimum, because they did not want to be a bishop, or a Relief Society president? I have. There are many many more who do this, without realizing they are limiting themselves out of fear or laziness.

So, the question is: what do we personally need to do to increase the Spirit's influence over us?

This is an excellent response. It reflects a bit of looking outside of the "I think I have received the spirit" to someone who has stepped away and genuinely asked "Have I received the Holy Ghost" You have realized there is a process that moves from one point to the next and that there are markers that indicate where you are on the path.

I would also like to hear your thoughts on what we can do to increase the spirit's influence over us.

I will add that I agree on another point. Many choose to deny themselves what they should be passionately single-mindedly engaged in. However, I am convinced that it is fewer that do so intentionally knowing they are denying their growth. The greater numbers, I believe are because they are not observing specifics of the scriptures. They distance themselves from believing that the events, for instance, that occur in the Enos situation can be theirs. We can get to intent in a bit but first let’s make a list of what occurs with Enos. Here is Robert D. Hales observations of certain key aspects of his evaluation:

Finding Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - Elder Robert D. Hales, Ensign Nov 2004

Elements of Enos' faith building experience:

1-Enos heard the gospel truths from his father 2-he let his father's teachings about “eternal life, and the joy of the saints” sink deep into his heart. 3-He was filled with a desire to know for himself whether these teachings were true and where he himself stood before his Maker. 4-Enos obeyed the commandments of God.

We cannot find Enos-like faith without our own wrestle before God in prayer. I testify that the reward is worth the effort.

The pattern is:

1-hear the word of God, spoken and written by His servants.

2-let that word sink deep into your heart;

3-hunger in your soul for righteousness. To use Enos's words, “My soul hungered.” By this intense spiritual appetite, Enos qualified himself to receive the Savior's promise: “Blessed are all they who do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for the shall be filled with the Holy Ghost.”

4-obediently follow gospel laws, ordinances, and covenants; Enos obeyed the commandments of God, which enabled him to be receptive to the Spirit of the Holy Ghost.

5-raise your voice in mighty prayer and supplication, asking in faith to know that Jesus Christ is our Savior.

The promise: I promise that if you do these things sincerely and unceasingly, the words Christ spoke to His disciples will be fulfilled in your life: “Ask, and it shall e given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.”(Matt 7:7)

It wasn't easy. Faith did not come quickly. In fact, Enos characterized his experience in prayer as a “wrestle which [he] had before God.” but faith did come. By the power of the Holy ghost, he did receive a witness for himself.

To my dear friend and all those whose souls are hungering for faith, I invite you “to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written.” Let their witness that the Savior gave His life for you sink deep into your heart. Seek a witness of the truth through the Holy Ghost in prayer, and then see your faith strengthened...”

Now I like lists like this but the general nature of the audience means that sometimes we have to let the spirit alert listeners to find on their own what specifics can be attached to the list.

However we can explore some of the tangibles and see what we think. These specific things occur with Enos that I wonder if others think can apply to them.

1.) Can we and should we hear a voice clearly declare we are forgiven or some form of that concept as Enos did?

2.) Can we and should we experience a sense of our guilt completely being swept away. Will it be undeniably tangible and clear as Enos’s was?

3.) Do we realize that God cannot lie and so we no longer need to operate under such questioning behaviors of wondering whether the Book of Mormon is a genuine record of an actual people instead of an illustrative story?

4.) Can we and should we experience the distinctly identifiable change of heart that finds us pleading in behalf of our family, our people, and our enemies. A change that is so great that he pleads for their welfare with all of the earnestness that he pled for his own?

5.) Can we and should we actually have discourse and conversation engaging the “voice of the Lord” as he responds to our questions?

6.) Can we continue in developing these into regular behaviors? In other words can we continue to have actual conversations through the veil with our Lord and Savior?

7.) Are these types of things on a list of specific markers that can help an individual define where we are in the process?

Would any of these things constitute going from grace to grace as you pointed out? What's missing from this list? Any thoughts?

Edited September 18, 2012 by SamIam

[Thunderfire]

1.) How do we end the crisis of faith moments?

2.) What specific spiritual experiences should we be seeking on the way to receiving the second comforter?

3.) What conditions allow receipt of these experiences?

3.) How do we recognize where we as individuals are in the process?

..."This is what the Lord says: Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you fill find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.' I appointed watchmen over you and said, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But you said, 'We will not listen..." Jeremiah 6:16-17

I offer this as counsel shared with me. We find release from our crisis of faith when we become far more focused on what we pray for. A crisis of faith is no different than standing at the crossroads. If we ask for the ancient paths, the good way we are to walk, then it will be shown to us. If we listen to the "watchmen" and listen to the trumpet we will also know the better choice to make in order to overcome our crisis of faith.

Again, for me a crisis of faith is no different than standing at the crossroads. It's the choice we make and the tenacity we use to take that first step makes all the difference in the world in overcoming any crisis we face. Just my thoughts...

[SamIam]

It's not just about receiving the Holy Ghost. Enos was focusing on finding out if his sins had been forgiven, rather than just seeking an assurance from God

about something else

through the power of the Holy Ghost. Lots and lots of us receiving assurances from the Holy Ghost to let us know certain things are true, but still don't know

their sins have been forgiven

.

It's kind of odd, isn't it. It doesn't seem so hard for us to know the Holy Ghost is testifying to us to let us know Jesus is the Christ, or that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, or that the Book of Mormon is true, or that the Church is true, or this or that or the other thing, but how many of us really know our sins have been forgiven, up to the moment, even though there have been times when we've done some things we knew we shouldn't have been doing?

I think the battle is mainly with ourselves, as we're talking with God, from the deepest part of ourselves, personally. We have to know he's listening, otherwise we wouldn't be talking to him, but does he really forgive us for all of our sins, even though we seem to have a pattern of messing up, regularly? We can feel like we have repented, to at least some extent, but are our efforts to repent really enough? Did we actually get to the point where we are forgiven, and are now worthy of the Celestial kingdom? Really? Can we really know that just as much as we can know anything?

Someday we'll get to the point where we stop beating ourselves up while knowing we have been forgiven, and until then, we won't know. And even when we do know, we'll still need to keep doing whatever it took for us to receive forgiveness. We do have to do something, you know, otherwise the atonement would not apply to us.

Very good questions. I think you are pointing to the things that plague many of us who seek to KNOW God's will and understand his communication.

My question to you is how well can we truly know Jesus is the Christ, or Jospeh Smith was a prophet if we have yet to know if we have been born again and received a remission of our sins? Isn't it this experience that truly changes our very person so that we can know these things with unshakable faith that they are true? If the spirit must have a clean vessel in which to dwell, how much changing, confirming influence of the spirit can we claim if the environment for his presence is inadequate? It sounds like you may be agreeing with President Benson's thought in this statement concerfning both Enos and us, " Through his mighty supplication to God, he experienced what the faithful of any dispensation can, do, and must experience if they are to see God and be filled with His Spirit.

We must experience knowing we are forgiven for our sins before we can see God and before we can be filled with his spirit. Would you agree?

Edited September 18, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

..."This is what the Lord says: Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you fill find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.' I appointed watchmen over you and said, 'Listen to the sound of the trumpet!' But you said, 'We will not listen..." Jeremiah 6:16-17

I offer this as counsel shared with me. We find release from our crisis of faith when we become far more focused on what we pray for. A crisis of faith is no different than standing at the crossroads. If we ask for the ancient paths, the good way we are to walk, then it will be shown to us. If we listen to the "watchmen" and listen to the trumpet we will also know the better choice to make in order to overcome our crisis of faith.

Again, for me a crisis of faith is no different than standing at the crossroads. It's the choice we make and the tenacity we use to take that first step makes all the difference in the world in overcoming any crisis we face. Just my thoughts...

Excellent counsel. I hope others can sense, as you seem to imply, that a critical element of getting beyond the crisis of faith and the questions that seem associated with doubts about leaders, and science conflicts, History of the Church, is very much relative to how and what we pray for. As well we have to embrace both sides of prayer. Speaking and listening for the answers. Do you think people really believe they can get direct and specific answers to questions that they ask? Can they engage in conversations? Is this an immediate thing or do we have to learn how it is done?

[Thunderfire]

Do you think people really believe they can get direct and specific answers to questions that they ask? Can they engage in conversations? Is this an immediate thing or do we have to learn how it is done?

Let me answer this from my heart: Do I believe that others believe they can get direct and specific answers to questions they ask? Of course not. Because if this was so, then many would never experience a crisis of faith!

From my experience, the Lord is so humble and gracious to us. He does not want to invade or intrude. He is still speaking, yet in a quiet whisper where we must be ACTIVELY listening.

Here is a real "gem" of scripture: ..."the righteous will live by faith..." Habakkuk 2:4

I find that while the Lord already knows how far each can go, our trials of faith are for our benefit, allowing us to see who we really are. Meaning, those of faith are content with the "eleventh hour" victory or answers to our questions. In faith we ask knowing that the Lord will respond, yet patiently wait knowing that it will come in the appropriate hour or season.

Right now, I am extremely wounded and see crisis all around me. I can see how easy it is to fall to doubt. Yet today, the Lord moved in and two people (out of the blue) called seeking counsel for the crisis they are in and the Lord gave me what I needed in my life through the counsel I was given to share. I am dumbfounded by what happened today.

I believe you are correct that we must learn how this is done. Jesus actively seeks to be found and he is far easier to be found than many imagine. Great and marvelous revelations are pouring out of heaven, counsel and answers to prayers.

I leave you with this: count it as a sincere joy when you are deemed worthy to suffer for the sake of the Lord you love, no matter how beat up and bruised you are. These trials are temporary and meant to make you stronger in your joy as well as your faith.

(Edit: I was struggling with how to end this post. My phone rang and on the other end was a prophet whom I have never met. She gave me that last line which I offered and wanted to write this edit as testimony to what I tried writing in this post)

Edited September 18, 2012 by Thunderfire

[The Nehor]

Same way out of any dead end. Turn around and walk out of said dead-end and find a road that actually goes somewhere.

I do not mean to offend but it has been my experience that many people (including myself) tend to wallow in situations like these as an excuse to stay in neutral. C.S. Lewis remarked that if your faith can fall like a house of cards then the sooner it is knocked down the better so you can build something better.

[Ahab]

My question to you is how well can we truly know Jesus is the Christ, or Joseph Smith was a prophet if we have yet to know if we have been born again and received a remission of our sins?

Faith from us precedes the miracle, with us showing our faith in God to him before he gives us faith to know whatever he wants to tell us.

Exercise a particle of faith that God will answer you on anything you want to know about, and then he will give you faith to know... whatever he will tell you.

Believe God will tell you whether or not Jesus is the Christ, and then God will tell you whether or not he is. (don't just assume it, ask if he is)

Believe God will tell you whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and then God will tell you whether or not he is (again, don't just assume it)

Believe there is a God, believe God will talk to you if you go to him in faith that he is, and then you will see that he is a rewarder of those who exercise faith in him.

Isn't it this experience that truly changes our very person so that we can know these things with unshakable faith that they are true?

You shouldn't just assume something is true because someone tells you it is, unless you know that person is God, Take whatever thought you have in your head and then talk to God about it, expecting that he will talk to you, in some way, as you try your very best to discern any way he may be speaking to you, personally. Know your own thoughts before you ask him something, assuming nothing but open to possibilities, and then look for any new thought that may come to you while asking God to help you know whatever he wants you to know.

If the spirit must have a clean vessel in which to dwell, how much changing, confirming influence of the spirit can we claim if the environment for his presence is inadequate?

A clean vessel in this sense means a vessel that isn't acting on preconceived ideas or assumptions. Let God do the talking while you listen to him. Don't have your mind made up already while expecting God to just confirm your own ideas. Pay attention to the ideas he gives you, wherever that leads you.

It sounds like you may be agreeing with President Benson's thought in this statement concerfning both Enos and us, " Through his mighty supplication to God, he experienced what the faithful of any dispensation can, do, and must experience if they are to see God and be filled with His Spirit.

Well, yes, of course. The thought is basically to talk to God and experience what talking to God can give you. You won't even know you're seeing God if you're not able to recognize his voice or the things he will tell you or has already told you but you didn't understand. To see God, you have to know who God is.

We must experience knowing we are forgiven for our sins before we can see God and before we can be filled with his spirit. Would you agree?

No, you have it backwards. When you see God you will already know you have been forgiven if you have been filled with his spirit. You must listen to God and as you listen to him you will come to know who he is. Edited September 18, 2012 by Ahab

[Ahab]

Let me answer this from my heart: Do I believe that others believe they can get direct and specific answers to questions they ask? Of course not. Because if this was so, then many would never experience a crisis of faith!

Duh! The point is to avoid having a crisis of faith, and you won't have one if God is talking to you, personally, telling you whatever you want to know.

From my experience, the Lord is so humble and gracious to us. He does not want to invade or intrude. He is still speaking, yet in a quiet whisper where we must be ACTIVELY listening.

That makes sense, and that's true.

Here is a real "gem" of scripture: ..."the righteous will live by faith..." Habakkuk 2:4

Faith is an assurance. The key is to get an assurance from God about something, not just be sure of yourself or your own ideas.

[SamIam]

1) I'm not so sure a crisis of faith is a momentary thing, or that the crisis is actually one of faith but rather one of intellect, emotion, material comfort, or other type of comfort zone. Ending the momentary darkness that comes with the Lord's testing, or with temptation and other confrontations with the adversary is a function of remembering the right thing to do and exercsing agency righteously. In the event of prolonged disruption, it is important to identify the nature of the crisis and not allow it to affect the faith necessary to endure to the end. In the event it is actually a faith crisis, one needs to muster up that particle of remaining faith and repent and remember that no one need ever be alone in their struggle.

2) We should be seeking and building on the spiritual experience of becoming as a child. Concurrently, we should be seeking the spiritual experieinces of obtaining and keeping a testimony of Jesus and a witness that the Gospel, the Book of Mormon, and the Restoration, and the true and living Church are real expressions of God's will for us (that they are true).

3) The conditions that allow us to become as a child are the Lord's Atonement and our receiving it in faith. The conditions that allow us to receive the testimonies are the Lord's will and our real intent.

4) I believe we can recognize where we are in comparison to where we were, but not in comparison to where we will be. I think a good barometer is how grateful we feel toward the Lord (I consider this a spiritual experience)--as our gratitude grows, we can be assured that we are growing in the right direction.

In responding to your lists, it prompts a few thoughts from me:

1.) The final sentence of item number one is very profound. You state, “In the event it is actually a faith crisis, one needs to muster up that particle of remaining faith and repent and remember that no one need ever be alone in their struggle.”

I’m going to take a bit of license here and posit what I think you may be implying. There are several aspects of mortality that lend themselves to not being clear on certain things. However, the Lord always promises if we ask we shall receive. Often then the moment is simply the moment of waiting on the Lord for his answer. However, the point I most appreciate, if I have understood you correctly, is that a faith crisis in some cases might be based on behaviors that require repentance in order to be renewed to the spirit that we can again regain our confidence in the Lord. Are these behaviors always the obvious sinful behaviors or do you think certain questions we may have are in and of themselves wrong and need to be repented of?

2.) Do you think that if a person has received a testimony on a particular thing, say for instance that Joseph Smith is a prophet, do you think that it is wise to continue asking over and over, “is Joseph Smith a prophet”, “is Joseph Smith a prophet” , “is Joseph Smith a prophet”. Or is there an issue with doubting the spirit by continuously pitting the testimony against everything that men may posit from their “research?”

3.) This might be very important can you explain a bit more on intent.

4.) This is the one that I consider the most nebulous for most members.

For instance, I am convinced that if you do not know that you have been forgiven for your sins that tells you very clearly that is where you should be seeking because you are not able to grow beyond the crisis of faith issues if the Holy Ghost considers you an unfit place to be to guide the direction of your life. If after you know this, then it seems clear from the scriptures and prophets that you must be developing your hearing of the spirit. You must be able to receive instruction and report on your success in carrying out that instruction and then you will receive more. …and so on as some other very specific steps are embraced that are markers for drawing closer to the Lord’s presence.

Very good thoughts overall…I am hoping you will expand especially on #3

[SamIam]

Let me answer this from my heart: Do I believe that others believe they can get direct and specific answers to questions they ask? Of course not. Because if this was so, then many would never experience a crisis of faith!

I have read thousands upon thousands of responses on this forum but none more true that this one observation from your heart. If people believed that in all of their seeking they must seek the voice of the Lord and they applied themselves with the hunger that Enos illustrates then many would never experience a crisis of faith.

This then may be the area of greatest need and the single most important thing to share with those that seem prone to crisis's of faith. Teach them of how to be born again and you solve the issue for the majority. However, it is apparent that this process is not well understood, or if understood is not well accomplished with sufficient focus.

Thank you for your observation. It is a very crucial one.

[SamIam]

pending.

Edited September 19, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

Faith from us precedes the miracle, with us showing our faith in God to him before he gives us faith to know whatever he wants to tell us.

Exercise a particle of faith that God will answer you on anything you want to know about, and then he will give you faith to know... whatever he will tell you.

You shouldn't just assume something is true because someone tells you it is, unless you know that person is God, Take whatever thought you have in your head and then talk to God about it, expecting that he will talk to you, in some way, as you try your very best to discern any way he may be speaking to you, personally. Know your own thoughts before you ask him something, assuming nothing but open to possibilities, and then look for any new thought that may come to you while asking God to help you know whatever he wants you to know.

The essence of what I am positing is that when we start out with budding testimonies it appears that there are many facets of testimony that are not as clear as they become over time with obedience and seeking the right things.

Testimonies of Joseph Smith being a prophet and even Jesus Christ being our Savior should not remain with the same intensities of our initial witness in most cases. My point being that one particular event is critical for them to expand into greater degrees of knowing and if that one event is lacking in your life then your knowing is like Peter who lacked the conviction to witness of Jesus Christ even through the night of his trial. However, after he was born again during the days of Pentecost his ability to sustain Christ was of an entirely different degree of magnitude. That is one very important change that results from the born again experience. After it is possessed there is no longer any room to criticize the leaders, the doctrine, the history etc because you know Christ has ordered the church perfectly for the role it fulfills and to criticize is to criticize his management of His organization.

Well, yes, of course. The thought is basically to talk to God and experience what talking to God can give you. You won't even know you're seeing God if you're not able to recognize his voice or the things he will tell you or has already told you but you didn't understand. To see God, you have to know who God is.

No, you have it backwards. When you see God you will already know you have been forgiven if you have been filled with his spirit. You must listen to God and as you listen to him you will come to know who he is.

Perhaps you are stating here what President Benson has said above that before you can see God, you will have known of having received the remission of your sins long before. Thereafter you are to continue on the path until at some future point you are brought into his presence. That is the usual order of the process.

[DBMormon]

How about this wonderful Podcast on Faith Crisis to assist the readers

http://mormondiscuss...on-perspective/

it is also on itunes as well

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/mormon-discussion-latter-day/id562296100

Edited September 19, 2012 by DBMormon

[Damien the Leper]

I don't necessarily believe that 'crisis' is the best word, because losing faith may be devastating in many ways, as it does not appropriately apply to all persons.

My lack of faith isn't because everything wasn't answered. My lack of faith comes from the answers not being sufficient enough for me to maintain my faith. I got tired and burned out from trying to keep something intact that has no business being intact any longer.

[SamIam]

How about this wonderful Podcast on Faith Crisis to assist the readers

http://mormondiscuss...on-perspective/

it is also on itunes as well

https://itunes.apple...day/id562296100

I'm going to say something that may evoke a strong response from yourself and perhaps from others. If we were sitting together I would be barely speaking above a whisper and quietly I would hope to gently explain the difference between the nature of what is said in the Podcast and the experience of being born again. The texture, quality and force behind being born again has no counterfeit. There are many things that sound like they might be right and related to the experience but you can always tell when someone has had the experience and has learned to recognize it's life altering influence and someone that has not.

Some of us have a strong penchant for intellectualizing our way through spiritual dilemma's. Time and time again it gets us over the hurdles because it satisfies some sense of knowing and understanding, however, eventually for many it gives way and they can't endure. On occasion, I have noted that some individuals have had strong spiritual experiences and they are convinced that this means they have been born again but they lack the fruits of actually having had the experience. Others, can be described as the Lamanites, who in 3 Nephi 9:20 "were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not." This is not to be construed as they had an experience of being born again and did not know it - they had had a very powerful experience but in their newness to the gospel they simply didn't know what label to put upon the experience - being healed and changed is not something that happens without leaving an indelible stamp upon the soul.

The best person, however, to illustrate what I am referring to is perhaps Peter of the New Testament. Crack open your scriptures and go to Luke 22:31-34. I'll put it here for the sake of discussion but it reads so much better from our personal scriptures quietly contemplated in the quiet of uninterrupted pondering.

Luke 22:31-34

31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the **** shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Please note that Christ is speaking to Peter just moments before His own trial and subsequent death and he says basically that contrary to your opinion of yourself you haven’t yet received the Holy Ghost – you are yet to be truly converted. Peter, of course, remonstrates from the perspective of one who is convinced otherwise and wants to prove it with strong words to the contrary. However, Christ, in effect says, Peter, Peter it is not your words that will give you away but in your actions the fruits of conversion will be missing and before morning, in the heat of your crisis of faith of the next few hours you will deny that you even know me.

I have in my scriptures a list of verses that describe the experiences that Peter has had up to this moment. John 1:40 – 42 is where he finds Jesus Christ, Mathew 4:19, he is called to be a missionary, Mark 2:1-4 – he is present when the man is lowered through the roof tiles and he sees the Savior heal him, Luke 6:13-14 – he is called to the Apostleship, Matt 14:16-21 – he participates in the miracle of feeding the 5000, Matthew 14:29 – he walks on water, John 6 :68 – he bears strong testimony of the divinity of Jesus Christ, Matthew 16:16 he bears testimony again and the Savior identifies this testimony as not from the words of men, but from revelation from heaven, Matthew 17:4 Peters stands with the Savior on the Mount of Transfiguration and entertains Elias and Moses- Bruce R. McConkie indicates that this was most likely when he received his own endowments and that he was probably a member of the first Presidency from this point forward.

Peter has walked on water and stood with men that have defied death in ways that he cannot understand, he has the testimony and has seen miracles and observed demons cast out from their hosts. Still Christ declares to Peter that in spite of all of these spiritual experiences he is yet to be converted and the absence of certain fruits will reveal him. Peter represents so many of us, deluded by the experiences we have had with the spirit, we loudly declare we will defend the standard, we love the Savior, we will die for him. Yet we find that our actions betray us and we simply are not where we thought we were.

Acts 2 is the turning point for Peter, then, he is baptized of fire and born again of the spirit. This man, who could not claim his Savior for his lack of conversion before during the night of His trial, gives his life in the end begging to be crucified upside down for his sense of unworthiness for the blessings that his conversion has caused him to realize.

In the Podcast as I listened, I heard two voices, John D. was identified, but I can only guess who the second was as if it was stated I did not hear it. However, in the theme of this post, the second voice was pre-converted Peter. Sure he has it all figured out and is convinced he has heard the voice of God direct his message. You can sense his testimony of Christ, and perhaps he has wrestled demons, and walked on water and had a host of powerful spiritual experiences. Probably endowed and possessed of a strong sense of the rightness of his defense of the spiritually poor and spiritually troubled, he even outlines a prescription for their healing and understanding. Intellectually he has comprehended the problems and challenges and he is now ready to talk them down from the spiritual ledge from which they are preparing to jump.

Perhaps because he does not recognize it, perhaps because he has never genuinely experienced its effects, he never once appeals to the only source of true healing that works. One must be born again, or at least be well on the way through the process before they realize that nothing else gives one the strength to defend the Savior and stand as his witness as does being truly converted and healed by the cleansing experience of being born again. If I was going to truly try to change someone’s life and help them through their crisis of faith experiences, I would follow Christ’s admonition to Peter and help them learn of the way to become converted and healed by receiving the Holy Ghost….It’s what the brethren are trying to teach us and if you listen carefully in the upcoming conference it will again be taught as it remains sorely lacking among far too many.

Edited September 19, 2012 by SamIam

[DBMormon]

repeat

Edited September 19, 2012 by DBMormon