How Do We Get Out Of The Crisis Of Faith Dead End?

[DBMormon]

ouch!!!!!

The second voice does not hide who he is.

And your description of pre-conversion would apply to most members of the church I would even venture to say an overwhelming majority. While you assume that is where I am I would certainly Say I am not where Peter was after the resurrection, so maybe your right.

I see through a glass darkly.

[DBMormon]

duplicate

[DBMormon]

I'm going to say something that may evoke a strong response from yourself and perhaps from others. If we were sitting together I would be barely speaking above a whisper and quietly I would hope to gently explain the difference between the nature of what is said in the Podcast and the experience of being born again. The texture, quality and force behind being born again has no counterfeit. There are many things that sound like they might be right and related to the experience but you can always tell when someone has had the experience and has learned to recognize it's life altering influence and someone that has not.

Some of us have a strong penchant for intellectualizing our way through spiritual dilemma's. Time and time again it gets us over the hurdles because it satisfies some sense of knowing and understanding, however, eventually for many it gives way and they can't endure. On occasion, I have noted that some individuals have had strong spiritual experiences and they are convinced that this means they have been born again but they lack the fruits of actually having had the experience. Others, can be described as the Lamanites, who in 3 Nephi 9:20 "were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not." This is not to be construed as they had an experience of being born again and did not know it - they had had a very powerful experience but in their newness to the gospel they simply didn't know what label to put upon the experience - being healed and changed is not something that happens without leaving an indelible stamp upon the soul.

In the Podcast as I listened, I heard two voices, John D. was identified, but I can only guess who the second was as if it was stated I did not hear it. However, in the theme of this post, the second voice was pre-converted Peter. Sure he has it all figured out and is convinced he has heard the voice of God direct his message. You can sense his testimony of Christ, and perhaps he has wrestled demons, and walked on water and had a host of powerful spiritual experiences. Probably endowed and possessed of a strong sense of the rightness of his defense of the spiritually poor and spiritually troubled, he even outlines a prescription for their healing and understanding. Intellectually he has comprehended the problems and challenges and he is now ready to talk them down from the spiritual ledge from which they are preparing to jump.

Perhaps because he does not recognize it, perhaps because he has never genuinely experienced its effects, he never once appeals to the only source of true healing that works. One must be born again, or at least be well on the way through the process before they realize that nothing else gives one the strength to defend the Savior and stand as his witness as does being truly converted and healed by the cleansing experience of being born again. If I was going to truly try to change someone’s life and help them through their crisis of faith experiences, I would follow Christ’s admonition to Peter and help them learn of the way to become converted and healed by receiving the Holy Ghost….It’s what the brethren are trying to teach us and if you listen carefully in the upcoming conference it will again be taught as it remains sorely lacking among far too many.

SAMLAM,

I went back and read this again. I am not upset at all by the way, and this is not a strong response you think may occur. I am grateful for truth. I agree with a bunch of what you say

- One can think he is truly converted when he is not

- miracles and spiritual experiences do not justify that conversion has occurred with certainty.

- I agree more then most that the mighty change or being born again should be our focus over all other side issues.

By the way - The second voice announces who he is right at the beginning of the podcast. He gives out his email too. It is I as you know or guessed.

- I also agree that my journey's spiritual climax has not occurred. That I have not gotten to the moment where I can not be lost.

- I, while in a good place, feeling the spirit, having received a spiritual witness, have not had an experience that places me in a comfort zone. I am still on guard. So your appraisal of may be correct.

- I think many fall into this same category (not 100% completely converted, but too many spiritual experiences to walk away)

- Like Peter it is a process where one sometimes has to be pushed out into the darkness before it is sought appropriately and found.

- I also think many are scared. The church is so important to them that they do not want to take the serious risk that it isn't what is claims so they never seek the answer absolutely.

- Many feel they have it, when they don't. They are safe where they are and say they "know" but when the storm comes they are unprepared

- Some are simply naive and do not understand what it takes to get there and don't grasp the process.

All that said - I have been in each of those phases or thought processes. But true conversion wan't the point of the podcast. It was to explain the pain to those who are in contact with those struggling in faith. It was to discuss the wrong way to help. Perhaps in the near future I will address it from what the struggler can do more fully.

Now if you want to have a personal discussion about me and I am happy to do that PM me. I am grateful for you, and while you seem to imply I would be upset with you. No way. I appreciate what you offer to the dialogue.

your friend in Christ

DB

Edited September 19, 2012 by DBMormon

[Tacenda]

I have read thousands upon thousands of responses on this forum but none more true that this one observation from your heart. If people believed that in all of their seeking they must seek the voice of the Lord and they applied themselves with the hunger that Enos illustrates then many would never experience a crisis of faith.

This then may be the area of greatest need and the single most important thing to share with those that seem prone to crisis's of faith. Teach them of how to be born again and you solve the issue for the majority. However, it is apparent that this process is not well understood, or if understood is not well accomplished with sufficient focus.

Thank you for your observation. It is a very crucial one.

What about a crisis of faith in a church institution only? But not in our God? What if someone is bornagain and doesn't feel a need to be loyal to any religion just his faith in God? What if a person feels like a church only stands in his way of reaching that bornagain transformation? What if a person believes in personal revelation and doesn't want a manmade church that is either run by or acting as a prophet on occasion and speaking as a man the majority of the time and you don't know which it is until much later maybe when he's gone? What if one just wants a personal relationship only with the Lord and not an institution? Is something terrible in putting your full trust in God only? Yet still maintaining a church membership to commune with one another and serve them in various ways. What's wrong with one belief in Him and several religions sharing that unity of faith?

Edited September 19, 2012 by Tacenda

[DBMormon]

SamLam is this perhaps more of what your looking for

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/09/19/doctrine-of-christ-part-3/

[CV75]

In responding to your lists, it prompts a few thoughts from me:

a faith crisis in some cases might be based on behaviors that require repentance in order to be renewed to the spirit that we can again regain our confidence in the Lord. Are these behaviors always the obvious sinful behaviors or do you think certain questions we may have are in and of themselves wrong and need to be repented of?

I was thinking of “repent” in terms of hanging on to that particle of remaining faith and not give cause for it to slip away (faith leads to repentance and spiritual power), but it could definitely include a sin we know about or an attitude we are aware of and have been procrastinating to address. I don’t think any question is wrong, but our reliance on the arm of flesh (temporal quests) over the arm over the Lord (spiritual quests) in our posing the question or responding to the answer (or lack of an answer) would be wrong, as would giving the question undue priority over doing good or treating people well. This all pertains to the child-like qualities the Lord wants us to cultivate.

2.) Do you think that if a person has received a testimony on a particular thing, say for instance that Joseph Smith is a prophet, do you think that it is wise to continue asking over and over, “is Joseph Smith a prophet”, “is Joseph Smith a prophet” , “is Joseph Smith a prophet”. Or is there an issue with doubting the spirit by continuously pitting the testimony against everything that men may posit from their “research?”

I don’t see the value of seeking a second, third, fourth, etc. spiritual witness of the same principle of faith. These come as the Lord sees fit as we prove faithful to the initial witness. Perhaps more importantly, the initial witness “grows” in meaning and understanding as we change spiritually by virtue of remaining faithful and true to that witness—this growth in testimony and personal spirituality seem to be concurrent and are reflected in our behavior and demeanor. So I see no solid basis for doubting the Spirit in any circumstance.

Conducting or reviewing research that contradicts the conclusions of the Spirit has to beguided by the Spirit if the Lord's purposes are to be honored. This is part of how some people come to understand the world around them and become good stewards of what the Lord has given them, but it obviously isn't for everybody. Once consideration for the Spirit has been set aside, the arm of flesh has taken over.

3.) This might be very important can you explain a bit more on intent.

I use “real intent” as Mormon and Moroni did in Moroni chapters 7-10 and as Nephi did in 2 Nephi 31:13. I think it means such things as: “good faith,” “having integrity before God,” “in good conscience,” “of the heart or of the spirit,” “without hypocrisy or deception before God,” “as a child (submissive, meek, humble, patient, repentant, full of love,” etc. I use “real” is in the sense Alma used it in Alma chapter 32: “discernibly good or of spiritual light,” “with a sensation of doing the right thing, or that enlightenment and expansion are imminent.” I think an open, "Thy will be done" attitude, not only in whether an answer is received but in doing whatever having that answer requires, is part of "real intent."

4.) This is the one that I consider the most nebulous for most members.

For instance, I am convinced that if you do not know that you have been forgiven for your sins that tells you very clearly that is where you should be seeking because you are not able to grow beyond the crisis of faith issues if the Holy Ghost considers you an unfit place to be to guide the direction of your life. If after you know this, then it seems clear from the scriptures and prophets that you must be developing your hearing of the spirit. You must be able to receive instruction and report on your success in carrying out that instruction and then you will receive more. …and so on as some other very specific steps are embraced that are markers for drawing closer to the Lord’s presence.

I agree with this. Part of knowing you are forgiven is feeling more charitable and forgiving toward others, so this would be a barometer or marker as well as gratitude; finding joy in serving others, giving generously, also. Of course we have chinks in our armor and any of these could lead to either a crisis that affects faith or to a bona fide faith crisis, which is why sticking to the basics is so necessary. As I apply myself to my calling for example, I find myself being more considerate and aware of others’ needs to feel loved and to have an opportunity to be facilitated into positive spiritual experiences. This has changed my feeling, attitude and behavior toward them, and my impact upon them. I believe that this is reflective of my sanctification process, which now that I think of it is the exact opposite of a faith crisis.

[SamIam]

What about a crisis of faith in a church institution only. But not in our God? What if someone is bornagain and doesn't feel a need to be loyal to any religion just his faith in God? What if a person feels like a church only stands in his way of reaching that bornagain transformation. What if a person believes in personal revelation and doesn't want a manmade church that is either run by or acting as a prophet on occasion and speaking as a man the majority of the time and you don't know which it is until much later maybe when he's gone. What if one just wants a personal relationship only with the Lord and not an institution. Is something terrible in putting your full trust in God only? Yet still maintaining a church membership to commune with one another and serve them in various ways. What's wrong with one belief in Him and several religions sharing that unity of faith?

I am firmly convinced that one of the challenges many members in the church face is fealty to the organization when they have mistaken that they need to be seeking the Savior first. Over time the church as an organization cannot sustain a testimony of Jesus Christ, as one must first have a testimony of Jesus Christ, then the church will follow as his organization. In other words for many, they confuse looking for a team to join with finding Christ. The lack of confirmation of spiritual promises then fails and they don't have the experiences that the scriptures and leaders of their church tell them to expect. The reason being their foundation is wrong.

Then they may leave the organization, biased now to some degree and they go elsewhere. However in their journey some actually gain a testimony of Jesus Christ, partially because they have burned out on seeking him in an organization and have simply sought him. It is natural that if one fails to find Christ before leaving the church that one might blame the church for having denied them access when in reality it is their own improper approach of how to find him. Nonetheless, if one does not allow bias and Satan to confuse, in my mind it is pretty simple to realize that the LDS church is the vehicle that Christ has established to perpetuate his mission and works of salvation.

Nonetheless part of the issue is we fail to realize the absolutes of spiritual rules that define the spiritual rewards. As mentioned above in my earlier post on Peter, his situation very much defines all that is possible for one that receives the gifts of the presence of the Holy Ghost. It will only give you so much and many become complacent and feel that is what spiritual growth is all about - receiving moments of enlightenment and having a nice warm fuzzy from time to time. However the rule of spiritual growth, the mandate of spiritual limitation, the order of heaven is that one cannot have the rewards of the gift of the Holy Ghost until one completes the process of receiving the Holy Ghost. Thus the real capacity to change your very nature to become like Christ, to overcome the weaknesses that distance us from God, the ability to develop into the type of individual that can be brought into his presence is forfeit until one quits wandering, placated by spiritual moments, and seeks to receive fully this gift.

It is an act of pure rebellion, though generally of ignorance, to tool about playing the research game, developing our own spiritual hobbies, finding satisfaction in alternatives that are sustained by no more than spiritual moments, when the final commandment of the first principles of the Gospel as defined in the words of the confirmation of the Holy Ghost is to "receive the Holy Ghost." Those four words comprise the very first test to see if we will be obedient to God's will. Will we do all that we can to fulfill the very first commandment given to us immediately after our baptism? Will we receive the Holy ghost? Most do not. They go back to guiding themselves, finding their own paths to wander in, happy that once in a while they get a warm fuzzy when they draw close to a principle of truth. However, as long as the rebellion continues they receive not the blessings that God has in store for them if they will be obedient to the first commandment to receive the Holy Ghost.

So to recap how this applies to your question, the crisis of faith in the organization is a byproduct of the concept of “my spirit will not always strive with man”(2 Nephi 26:11). There are members on this forum that at one time were perceived as some of the most true and valiant defenders of the church. However they took off on their own course of instruction and ignored the command to receive the Holy Ghost. Now apparently they have crossed the threshold of the spirits willingness to strive with them and it no longer waits for them to fulfill the commandment. What has happened to them eventually is one of the rules of heaven. If we put this off long enough, the spirit ceases to strive and then the next part of the 2 Nephi verse kicks in and “then cometh speedy destruction”. This is the inevitable result of maintaining a rebellious spirit and it will happen eventually to everyone that resists the command to receive the Holy Ghost.

Bottom line we must have that guiding spirit in full receipt to recognize the answers to the questions you pose. This is not a manmade church, it is a church administered to the best of the telestial standards of the sphere in which it resides. It is Christ’s church but it is the nature of those who refuse to be born again to want to criticize demean and blame something outside of themselves for their own failures to be obedient. The church is fine and it gets better with each individual that accepts the charge to receive the Holy Ghost. Then, being changed creatures, there is greater love, more correct responses to those who feel ostracized, better camaraderie because the members become actually united in the process of becoming like Jesus Christ which is only truly possible AFTER being born again.

For those that resist, this other process continues and the decline in testimony and increase in negative feelings may have its ebbs and flows so that we feel better in one moment only to react even more strongly with the next crisis that presents itself – and it will present itself, rebellion ensures that. Better by far to end our self instruction, self guidance, false distractions that keep us from fulfilling the very first commandment we are given –receive the Holy Ghost.

While I had hoped to touch more on the specifics of how this is done, we have only grazed along the surface of such. I feel like we are still in the process of getting individuals to catch the vision of how utterly imperative it is that we cease all other distractions that do not directly relate to our being obedient, especially those that attempt to placate others who suffer from the precise condition that is the result of their failure to be obedient. My point - if you want to teach others how to overcome their crisis’s of faith, we have to teach correct principles and not philosophies of men.

[SamIam]

ouch!!!!!

The second voice does not hide who he is.

And your description of pre-conversion would apply to most members of the church I would even venture to say an overwhelming majority. While you assume that is where I am I would certainly Say I am not where Peter was after the resurrection, so maybe your right.

I see through a glass darkly.

I did not mean to imply that anyone was hiding their identity, simply that I wasn't positive if I was guessing correctly. You are correct I believe in your assessment and I think Joseph Fielding Smith would agree as well, it is sadly a large, large number of saints that will not pass the first test they are given.

Perhaps mine is an assumption, but really it is based on not seeing certain things, fruits if you will, that are natural to the event and process. These fruits are very apparent when they are missing, as much so as when they are present.

Edited September 19, 2012 by SamIam

[Ahab]

It looks to me like some people confuse "receiving the Holy Ghost" with "enduring to the end". A person can receive the Holy Ghost and still not endure to the end.

Peter, for example, received the Holy Ghost who told him Jesus was the Christ and the Son of our Father in heaven. He didn't gain that knowledge by logic, alone. He received and accepted what the Holy Ghost told him as he bore the witness of our Father and our Lord to Peter. And yes, that was before Peter denied he had known our Lord and that he had been with him, even though he knew that he had. So what does that tell us? That Peter didn't really receive the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost bore witness of the truth to Peter? No, that isn't right. It tells us that we can sin and go against what we know is true in the face of fear or persecution. So what did our Lord mean when he said something about Peter being converted later? Does that mean Peter hadn't been converted before to any degree whatsoever? No, it means Jesus knew Peter would slip up and need to be converted, again, or rather to carry on with his conversion process. Conversion is a process, and we can fall until we learn we need to get up again, no matter how many times we may fall. All we need to do is endure to the end, until we are perfected, even if we mess up bigtime somewhere in the process.

People whose faith gets weak in some moments don't have to lose all the faith they once had. They just need to remember how they got faith from God in the first place and then excericse the faith they have had yet again. And if they didn't get faith from God in the first place, they learn they need to get it from him instead of having faith just in their own self. By ourselves we can fall, but we can learn to get up and become even stronger when we accept God's help to strengthen us.

Peter seeing our Lord after he was resurrected was the just the boost he needed to carry on in his conversion process. He fell, but he got back up, and sometimes we fall just so we can learn to get back up again.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Ahab

[SamIam]

It looks to me like some people confuse "receiving the Holy Ghost" with "enduring to the end". A person can receive the Holy Ghost and still not endure to the end.

Peter, for example, received the Holy Ghost who told him Jesus was the Christ and the Son of our Father in heaven. He didn't gain that knowledge by logic, alone. He received and accepted what the Holy Ghost told him as he bore the witness of our Father and our Lord to Peter. And yes, that was before Peter denied he had known our Lord and that he had been with him, even though he knew that he had. So what does that tell us? That Peter didn't really receive the Holy Ghost as the Holy Ghost bore witness of the truth to Peter? No, that isn't right. It tells us that we can sin and go against what we know is true in the face of fear or persecution. So what did our Lord mean when he said something about Peter being converted later? Does that mean Peter hadn't been converted before to any degree whatsoever? No, it means Jesus knew Peter would slip up and need to be converted, again, or rather to carry on with his conversion process. Conversion is a process, and we can fall until we learn we need to get up again, no matter how many times we may fall. All we need to do is endure to the end, until we are perfected, even if we mess up bigtime somewhere in the process.

People whose faith gets weak in some moments don't have to lose all the faith they once had. They just need to remember how they got faith from God in the first place and then excericse the faith they have had yet again. And if they didn't get faith from God in the first place, they learn they need to get it from him instead of having faith just in their own self. By ourselves we can fall, but we can learn to get up and become even stronger when we accept God's help to strengthen us.

Peter seeing our Lord after he was resurrected was the just the boost he needed to carry on in his conversion process. He fell, but he got back up, and sometimes we fall just so we can learn to get back up again.

Peter did not recieve the GIFT of Holy Ghost until the days of Pentecost. This was well after his receipt of the testimony of Jesus Christ as the son of God which he drew from the power of the Holy Ghost. When Christ speaks of "another comforter" in:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Christ is referencing that it is a future event. In John 16:7 he more clearly speaks to this absence of the gift of the Holy Ghost when he states:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is

a

expedient

for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the

b

Comforter

will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

This link to the Bible Dictionary will also help to clear up your misunderstanding. http://www.lds.org/s...-ghost?lang=eng

Misunderstanding the nature of this principle is one of the foundational aspects of what this thread is hoping to correct. Generally those who do not understand this distinction are also still seeking the experience of which we are discussing.

Edited September 19, 2012 by SamIam

[Ahab]

Peter did not recieve the GIFT of Holy Ghost until the days of Pentecost.

That was a gift of the Holy Ghost, with power, not "the" gift of the Holy Ghost everyone following our Lord is commanded to receive after baptism in water.

Tell me, do you believe Peter had our Lord's hands placed upon his head after his baptism in water, prior to being given our Lord's authority when he was chosen as a member of his Quorum of the Twelve back then? If you do believe our Lord placed his hands upon their heads after he baptized them, or at least one of them before authorizing one of them to do that for the others, what do you suppose he said to them if not to say "receive the Holy Ghost".as we now say when we baptize someone?

At what point do you believe Jesus laid his hands upon Peter to not only give him the right to have the constant companionship of a member of the Godhead, but to ordain him to an order of our Lord's priesthood, which as we know comes after someone is not only baptized but confirmed as a member of our Lord's church while being commanded to receive the Holy Ghost?

This was well after his receipt of the testimony of Jesus Christ as the son of God which he drew from the power of the Holy Ghost. When Christ speaks of "another comforter" in:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Christ is referencing that it is a future event. In John 16:7 he more clearly speaks to this absence of the gift of the Holy Ghost when he states:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is

a

expedient

for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the

b

Comforter

will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

This link to the Bible Dictionary will also help to clear up your misunderstanding. http://www.lds.org/s...-ghost?lang=eng

I suggest you read the text in the Bible Dictionary while asking God to give you a better understanding of what the gift of the Holy Ghost is, and how it is given, as well as why, and when, it is given.

To believe the gift of the Holy Ghost was NOT given to those who accepted the gospel as taught by our Lord and his apostles in those days is to believe those people did NOT have someone with our Lord's authority lay hands upon their heads to give them the right to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost who would help them to know that what our Lord said is true.

They did have the right, even though they may not have had his constant companionship while our Lord was with them, instead.

Misunderstanding the nature of this principle is one of the foundational aspects of what this thread is hoping to correct. Generally those who do not understand this distinction are also still seeking the experience of which we are discussing.

Which is what, exactly, in your opinion? The constant companionship of the Holy Ghost?

I do have that right, at least, and I strive to be constantly worthy of it to not only help me but to try to help others with it.

[DBMormon]

I did not mean to imply that anyone was hiding their identity, simply that I wasn't positive if I was guessing correctly. You are correct I believe in your assessment and I think Joseph Fielding Smith would agree as well, it is sadly a large, large number of saints that will not pass the first test they are given.

Perhaps mine is an assumption, but really it is based on not seeing certain things, fruits if you will, that are natural to the event and process. These fruits are very apparent when they are missing, as much so as when they are present.

I agree completely and as you imply the absence is as apparent as the endowment of the spirit. I would love to hear your formula for the EVENT or the PROCESS and what you think the FRUITS are to it?

I sincerely ask, and care to hear your response.

DB

[SamIam]

That was a gift of the Holy Ghost, with power, not "the" gift of the Holy Ghost everyone following our Lord is commanded to receive after baptism in water.

Tell me, do you believe Peter had our Lord's hands placed upon his head after his baptism in water, prior to being given our Lord's authority when he was chosen as a member of his Quorum of the Twelve back then? If you do believe our Lord placed his hands upon their heads after he baptized them, or at least one of them before authorizing one of them to do that for the others, what do you suppose he said to them if not to say "receive the Holy Ghost".as we now say when we baptize someone?...

I believe that Peter did not have the gift of the Holy Ghost until the days of Pentecost. Christ told the apostles they would not have the gift until he departed – Read the verses I provided and they simply say just that.

If you will carefully review the quotes from General authorities that I have included in my posts you will notice that they are drawing a distinction between the command to receive the Holy Ghost which command we receive as part of the confirmation and those who do not follow up on this command by actually seeking the gift that is promised until they actually receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

You might also revisit the scriptures, I have provided. They clearly point to the fact that Christ acknowledges that they have not received the gift of the Holy Ghost to be their constant companion. However the Acts verse describes when that event finally takes place. Mosiah 4 discusses the same event with King Benjamin’s people. The mighty change is the baptism of fire, is to be born again, is to receive the Holy Ghost.

This Quote by Elder Bednar should clearly indicate the point I am trying to make:

The ordinance of confirming a new member of the Church and bestowing the gift of the Holy Ghost is both simple and profound. Worthy Melchizedek Priesthood holders place their hands upon the head of an individual and call him or her by name. Then, by the authority of the holy priesthood and in the name of the Savior, the individual is confirmed a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and this important phrase is uttered: “Receive the Holy Ghost.”

The simplicity of this ordinance may cause us to overlook its significance. These four words—“Receive the Holy Ghost”—are not a passive pronouncement; rather, they constitute a priesthood injunction—an authoritative admonition to act and not simply to be acted upon (see 2 Nephi 2:26).

The Holy Ghost does not become operative in our lives merely because hands are placed upon our heads and those four important words are spoken.

As we receive this ordinance, each of us accepts a sacred and ongoing responsibility to desire, to seek, to work, and to so live that we indeed “receive the Holy Ghost” and its attendant spiritual gifts. “For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift” (D&C 88:33).

The entire talk is found here:

http://www.lds.org/g...eive holy ghost

After this statement above he continues to outline parts of the process which are required. You will want to look this up and read it as it will perfectly define the order of things....Here is another talk given by Elder Bednar. He is talking about the same subject that you are striving to understand: The complete talk: http://www.lds.org/g...vid A. Bednar")

Ye Must Be Born Again

Elder David A. Bednar May 2007

The Lord's authorized servants repeatedly teach that one of the principal purposes of our mortal existence is to be spiritually changed and transformed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Alma declared: (quotes Mosiah 27:25-26). We are instructed to “come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny [ourselves] of all ungodliness(Moroni 10:32), to become “new creatures

” in Christ (see 2 Cor. 5:17), to put off “the natural man” (Mosiah 3:19), and to experience a “a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2). Please note that the conversion described in these verses is mighty, not minor—a spiritual rebirth and fundamental change of what we feel and desire, what we think and do, and what we are. Indeed, the essence of the gospel of Jesus Christ entails a fundamental and permanent change in our very nature made possible through our reliance upon “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2). As we choose to follow the Master we choose to be changed—to be spiritually reborn.

Line upon line and precept upon precept, gradually ad almost imperceptibly, our motives, our thoughts, our words, and our deeds become aligned with the will of God. This phase of the transformation process requires time, persistence, and patience....after we come out of the waters of baptism, our souls need to be continuously immersed in and saturated with the truth and the light of the Saviour's gospel. Sporadic and shallow dipping in the doctrine of Christ and partial participation in His restored Church cannot produce the spiritual transformation that enables us to walk in a newness of life. Rather, fidelity to covenants, constancy of commitment, and offering our whole soul unto God are required if we are to receive the blessings of eternity. (quotes Omni 26) Total immersion in and saturation with the Saviour's gospel are essential steps in the process of being born again.

When sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, an ordinance, vow, or covenant is binding on earth and in heaven. (see D&C 132:7)...Purifying and sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise constitute the culminating steps in the process of being born again.

Between all of the Scriptures and comments from General Authorities is adequate information to illustrate the principles upon which we are discussing, as well the answers to your questions are in these quotes.

Edited September 19, 2012 by SamIam

[Ahab]

Between all of the Scriptures and comments from General Authorities is adequate information to illustrate the principles upon which we are discussing, as well the answers to your questions are in these quotes.

I'm mainly in agreement with all that you're written except for your idea that our Lord's apostles didn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was resurrected. That's not right, and I'm trying to help you understand why.

The "gift of the Holy Ghost" that is given at baptism is the "right" to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, and any person who has been baptized in water by our Lord's authorized servants full access to that "right". They may or may not receive it right away, but they can as long as they strive to receive it, because they have the right to receive it. It's all up to whether they will accept (or receive) what the Holy Ghost will tell them through personal revelation, constantly.

There may be some other points you're trying to make which aren't perfectly true, but the one above is the main issue you don't seem to understand. What makes you think our Lord's apostles wouldn't have the "right" to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost even while Jesus was with them? i know it took them a while to get to the point where they did have that constant companionship, just as it takes most of us a while before we get to that point, but they always had the right to it, just as we do.

[DBMormon]

I'm mainly in agreement with all that you're written except for your idea that our Lord's apostles didn't receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was resurrected. That's not right, and I'm trying to help you understand why.

The "gift of the Holy Ghost" that is given at baptism is the "right" to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, and any person who has been baptized in water by our Lord's authorized servants full access to that "right". They may or may not receive it right away, but they can as long as they strive to receive it, because they have the right to receive it. It's all up to whether they will accept (or receive) what the Holy Ghost will tell them through personal revelation, constantly.

There may be some other points you're trying to make which aren't perfectly true, but the one above is the main issue you don't seem to understand. What makes you think our Lord's apostles wouldn't have the "right" to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost even while Jesus was with them? i know it took them a while to get to the point where they did have that constant companionship, just as it takes most of us a while before we get to that point, but they always had the right to it, just as we do.

Ahab - I too disagree with you. The devil is in the details. Confirmation is a different ordiance then baptism. If a investigator gets baptized - do they receive the Holy ghost as a constant companion that night or must they wait for the laying on of hands the next sunday?

I think they could feel the holy ghost constantly but would not have the constant companionship of the gift of the spirit till the next day when confirmed in sacrament. While we may disagree on this the church is very specific that the gift comes with the ordinance of confirmation.

Though I do agree that the spirit in many instances is not felt as a gift until later when the person is prepared for it or has been born again. Some may never receive it.

[Ahab]

Ahab - I too disagree with you.

No, I don't think you do, based on what I understand you to be saying.

The devil is in the details.

And so is God.

Confirmation is a different ordiance then baptism. If a investigator gets baptized - do they receive the Holy ghost as a constant companion that night or must they wait for the laying on of hands the next sunday?

The issue in question is not if they have the companionship of the Holy Ghost, constant or otherwise.

The issue in question is if they have the "right" to the constant compantionship of the Holy Ghost, and when they get it.

I think they could feel the holy ghost constantly but would not have the constant companionship of the gift of the spirit till the next day when confirmed in sacrament. While we may disagree on this the church is very specific that the gift comes with the ordinance of confirmation.

That's possible, but they wouldn't have the "right" to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost until they were confirmed as a member of our Lord's church, which includes someone with our Lord's authority laying hands upon them to tell them to receive the Holy Ghost.

Though I do agree that the spirit in many instances is not felt as a gift until later when the person is prepared for it or has been born again. Some may never receive it.

I agree with you here, too, I think.

[DBMormon]

No, I don't think you do, based on what I understand you to be saying.

And so is God.

The issue in question is not if they have the companionship of the Holy Ghost, constant or otherwise.

The issue in question is if they have the "right" to the constant compantionship of the Holy Ghost, and when they get it.

That's possible, but they wouldn't have the "right" to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost until they were confirmed as a member of our Lord's church, which includes someone with our Lord's authority laying hands upon them to tell them to receive the Holy Ghost.

I agree with you here, too, I think.

I am confused which happens easily. It sounds like you disagree with Samlam and then reiterate agreement with me. where is the difference in thought? are you simply arguing that when one is baptised they have a right to the Holy Ghost even though they can't receive it until after confirmation? How can you have a right to something that God won't give you till something else occurs.

http://www.lds.org/g...-ghost?lang=eng

The gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed only after proper and authorized baptism and by the laying on of hands by those holding the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Lord declared:

“Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. …

“And whoso having faith you shall confirm in my church, by the laying on of the hands, and I will bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost upon them” (D&C 33:11, 15).

Edited September 19, 2012 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

SAMLAM -

hoping you'll answer my previous post. But also you mentioned the brethren talking about being born again repeatedly. might you suggest some talks that you are speaking of as I searched

- BORN AGAIN, MIGHTY CHANGE, SANCTIFIED, SANCTIFICATION, HOLY GHOST, HOLY SPIRIT

and very few results came back over the last 5-8 years.

[Ahab]

I am confused which happens easily. It sounds like you disagree with Samlam and then reiterate agreement with me. where is the difference in thought?

I understand Samlam to be saying that not even our Lord's apostles had the gift of the Holy Ghost until after our Lord's resurrection and ascension into heaven. I haven't seen you say you agree with him on that point. I've been trying to point out that the gift of the Holy Ghost is the "right" to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, whether or not we have him with us constantly.

are you simply arguing that when one is baptised they have a right to the Holy Ghost even though they can't receive it until after confirmation?

Our right to receive the right to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is contingent upon receiving our confirmation as a member of the Lord's Church when that right is given to us by the laying on of hands by someone authorized to give us that right. That's when we get that right. Until then we don't have that right to his constant companionship, even though the Holy Ghost can decide to stay with someone constantly even if he has no right to his companionship.

How can you have a right to something that God won't give you till something else occurs.

http://www.lds.org/g...-ghost?lang=eng

You can't, but the question is what gives us that right.

The thing that needs to occur to give us that right is for someone with our Lord's authority to give us that right, and our Lord's apostles didn't need to wait until a day of Pentecost before they had the right to receive it.

[DBMormon]

are you suggesting they were confirmed before pentecost?

When does one have the right?

- when one is worthy one may have the right to feel the holy ghost

- when one is confirmed one has the right to the GIFT of the Holy Ghost

my opinion only

[SamIam]

That's possible, but they wouldn't have the "right" to receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost until they were confirmed as a member of our Lord's church, which includes someone with our Lord's authority laying hands upon them to tell them to receive the Holy Ghost.

Ahab - this has become a semantics issue. I'm going to guess that you have read a bit of McConkie's Mormon Doctrine on the subject and are trying to force an acquiescence on something not germane to the actual discussion. Whatever condition the apostles were subject to is a special case scenario unique to Christ's physical presence on the earth at the time of his ministry. It does not apply to you nor I nor any other reading this thread. Nonetheless, as a final end of discussion quote, I will continue as I have done almost exclusively throughout my responses in that I am using quotes and scriptures etc by those in authority to speak to this subject. Your point is one you have contrived and feel the need to establish as fact. Wherever you and I seem to fail to understand each other, I am going to defer to Bruce R. McConkies statements as the point I am trying to make:

It is a false notion to suppose that the apostles and other righteous men did not receive revelation from the Holy Ghost while Christ was with them in the flesh.

It is true that

(with the apparent exception of John the Baptist)

they did not enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost

,

meaning the constant companionship of that member of the Godhead

,

until after the day of Pentecost.

But they did receive flashes of revelation from time to time from the Holy Ghost, as Peter did in this instance. Simeon's testimony, for instance, "was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost." (Luke 2:26); and so it was with the testimonies of all the disciples. John the Baptist, however—because of his position as the Lord's forerunner, and possibly because he did not enjoy the close personal relationship with Jesus that the other disciples had—was "filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb." (D. & C. 84:27.) Jesus himself, of course, had the Holy Ghost with him at all times and operated in all that he did in conformity with that member of the Godhead.(Bruce R. McConkie,

Doctrinal New Testament Commentary,

v1:384.)

Another one that speaks to the same subject is this one:

Peter's witness, a witness borne at Caesarea Philippi

by the power of the Holy Ghost

that Jesus was

"the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16), was given before the chief apostle had received the gift of the Holy Ghost. That holy endowment did not come until the day of Pentecost.

Then,

for the first time,

he and his fellow apostles

received the gift

that would teach them all things and bring all things to their remembrance. Similarly, Moroni's promise that "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things" (Moroni 10:5) is a promise that will find fulfillment after baptism. (Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1985], 262.)

I have been collecting material on this subject for a long time. There are some that can be construed to your perspective and that's great. If our conversation was concerning the Apostles ability to have the gift of the Holy Ghost we could pursue this further and split the finest frog hairs upon the topic but this quote above is the intent I will maintain as the intent of any commentary I have made to the subject. The point of the thread is to discuss possible suggestions for you and I and any else that might have interest or something to offer of consideration that would help others focus on the need to be personally engaged in receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost in the manner of the examples as found in the scriptures and prophetic commentary. If you mean anything else than what is stated above by Elder McConkie, then you are working from a different paradigm and focus than upon that with which I would like to continue this thread. To continue to distract from that purpose is to place yourself as an obstacle and distraction to a very important point of concern to which you might give greater consideration.

Edited September 20, 2012 by SamIam

[SamIam]

SAMLAM -

hoping you'll answer my previous post. But also you mentioned the brethren talking about being born again repeatedly. might you suggest some talks that you are speaking of as I searched

- BORN AGAIN, MIGHTY CHANGE, SANCTIFIED, SANCTIFICATION, HOLY GHOST, HOLY SPIRIT

and very few results came back over the last 5-8 years.

Bill,

Here are a couple of good ones to start with:

Elder Bednar, Ye Must be Born Again

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/ye-must-be-born-again?lang=eng

President Eyring's Must Raise The Bar

http://www2.byui.edu/Speeches/eyring_jan2005.htm

This Day Elder Henry B. Eyring,

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/this-day?lang=eng

Elder Porter - A Broken Heart and a Contrite Spirit

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/a-broken-heart-and-a-contrite-spirit?lang=eng

Some of these are speaking in that general audience way so that you have to be focused on the points made and see how they fit our discussion. Some are specific aspects in fine tune focus that describe how we need to understand our role to eventually reach the bigger picture.

I do want to move the discussion in the direction of your inquiry, but I am going to bow out for tonight. I'm coming down with something and I need to get a head of it if I can. We will develop the other thoughts in a day or so. Read these few article articles and they will give some great fodder for the discussion.

[CV75]

Some of these are speaking in that general audience way so that you have to be focused on the points made and see how they fit our discussion. Some are specific aspects in fine tune focus that describe how we need to understand our role to eventually reach the bigger picture.

Just a comment on the divine genius of the "general audience way" -- I have found that if I just show up and behave reverently, the Holy Spirit will not only help me understand specific points intended by the speaker, but the Holy Spirit will help me to hear and understand a unique aspect of the points made that I need at the time, and even provide much-needed personal thoguhts and feelings that are (superficailly at least) unrelated to the topic of the talk.

[SamIam]

Just a comment on the divine genius of the "general audience way" -- I have found that if I just show up and behave reverently, the Holy Spirit will not only help me understand specific points intended by the speaker, but the Holy Spirit will help me to hear and understand a unique aspect of the points made that I need at the time, and even provide much-needed personal thoguhts and feelings that are (superficailly at least) unrelated to the topic of the talk.

Brilliantly stated. This thought is entirely germane to this discussion. This capacity to let the spirit guide our hearing is improved upon each step of the way towards being born again. Yet after finally receiveing the Holy Ghost as our constant companion, by the baptism of fire, the clarity is improved upon a hundred fold. This increases our confidence in the Lord and our faith in his promises and the education process of the Holy Ghost becomes clearly tailored to the needs of the individual. Hence the utter necessity of striving to receive the Holy Ghost is an imperative that should not be delayed.

[CV75]

This capacity to let the spirit guide our hearing is improved upon each step of the way towards being born again. Yet after finally receiveing the Holy Ghost as our constant companion, by the baptism of fire, the clarity is improved upon a hundred fold. This increases our confidence in the Lord and our faith in his promises and the education process of the Holy Ghost becomes clearly tailored to the needs of the individual. Hence the utter necessity of striving to receive the Holy Ghost is an imperative that should not be delayed.

So if I have been following correctly:

After baptism we are confirmed members of the Church, receive the Holy Ghost, and are then baptized of fire and of the Holy Ghost (2 Nephi 31: 13-14, D&C 33:11; 39:6). “Fire” and “Holy Ghost” are synonymous in this use and are part of the confirmation ordinance (D&C 20:41).

The remission of sins comes “by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.” (D&C 19:31, 2 Nephi 21; 17). Remission is to cancel a debt or to forgive or pardon; in this case, to cancel the debt, paid in the form of punishment, of sin. This is justification (Moses 6:60, “by the Spirit ye are justified”). Personally, I think the role of the Spirit here is to testify / validate / verify to the Lord that the baptism and confirmation were entered into with real intent—hence we are pardoned by (attestation of) the Spirit to the Lord.

This prepares us for sanctification through the blood of Christ’s Atonement (“and by the blood ye are sanctified” – the previous verse says, “ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin.” So we are born again, or become innocent again, through justification and then also by sanctification, which removes the effects of sin (spiritual filth) by cleansing us. This is not done by the Spirit, but by the Lord.

I do not think it is the power of the Holy Ghost that either pardons us or cleanses us (it bears witness of truth to us)—the Holy Ghost affirms that we are eligible for the pardoning and cleansing that are wrought by the power of the Lord by virtue of His Atonement confirms this between the Lord and us.

This makes the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, as essential as it is, something other than the vehicle by which we are forgiven and cleansed; it is the agent by which the Lord’s cleansing of us is communicated and our acceptance of that cleansing is witnessed, confirmed and reported back to the Judge. Hence the Bible Dictionary says that the Gift of the Holy Ghost “is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin.” The constant companionship allows us to have an uninterrupted exchange of this cleansing intelligence, if we are worthy of it (D&C 121:46 and preceding verses) and our confidence waxes strong in the presence of God.

I find it interesting that the Lord teaches that it is the Father who actually directs the ministry of the Holy Ghost in relation to the ordinances: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine [which includes these ordinances], and …whoso believeth in me …unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he [the Father] will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.” (3 Nephi 11:35). Note that Jesus recognizes this when He prays: “Father, I thank thee that thou hast given the Holy Ghost unto these whom I have chosen …that thou wilt give the Holy Ghost unto all them that shall believe in their words [and that] …thou hast given them the Holy Ghost.” (3 Nephi 19:20-22). 2 Nephi 31:12 says, “And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.”

Moroni 2:2 shows that the Father typically baptizes with fire through the laying on of hands by the Lord’s authorized servants. But is also interesting that water baptism, confirmation (receiving the Holy Ghost) and being baptized by fire of the Father have not always been accomplished in that order (3 Nephi 9:20). Of course where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God, and Jesus is in the Father and the Father in Him (3 Nephi 9:15), the Lamanite’s rebirth may be an example where the Son and the Father share duties.

At any rate, our rebirth and resultant justification and sanctification often occur gradually over time. For example, we “re-enter” our baptism and confirmation with greater and greater intent as we partake of the Sacrament each week and progress in living the Gospel and in accessing the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.