Why does Holy Ghost transform lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required?

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Here is an apostle preaching directly from the Bible:  

 

Amen.

[stemelbow]

17 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Boblloyd91's topic for Catholic posters got me thinking about the Cross, the Atonement, Eternal Life and how He makes His plan known to us. Hence, the subject of my topic:  Why does the Holy Ghost transform lives in many religions if "True Church" authority is required for salvation?

People in many religions testify how Christ has transformed their lives through the Holy Ghost.  

How can religions, who claim no authority other than faith in Jesus Christ, obtain Salvation when according to Mark 16:16, Jesus Christ told his disciples "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature 'He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned?' "

How can the Catholic Church claim that "The one true Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church."

How can the LDS Church claim to be "The only true and living Church."

How do Christians feel about salvation for non believers?

Hope for Christians:

1.  George Beverly Shay version of "The Old Rugged Cross."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpjjC3f1FvI

Hope for Non Christians

2.  The Poem "Abu Ben Adhem."    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Poems_That_Every_Child_Should_Know/Abou_Ben_Adhem

 

Claiming something is easy.  I'm not too concerned.  God is over all.  The LDS Church may have authority from God.  I dont' know.  But if it does, it certainly doesnt' mean there is no other way to God.  I think there is.  That is any person can travel down the road of their traditions and still make it back to God, without ever having to come into the Church.  I think we just interpret things a little goofy--see things a little too literally. 

[Meerkat]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Because the Holy Ghost is God and can do whatever he likes to bless whomever he likes and does not answer to us.

This is interesting.  I'm chewing on this one a bit.  I agree that He must have a will, as do we,  and an infinite number of choices to address any issue.  With regard to blessings, His influence is so gentle at times, our agency may not pick up on it and we may miss it. Hence the importance of prayer, study, good works and balance in our lives.  This is a slightly different issue than what I originally had in mind.  (I didn't frame the question very well.) I'm wondering how other religious people outside the Church deal with the issues of authority and things such as how do they believe God deals with ordinances, etc. and Salvation for those who were good but never knew of Christ.

[stemelbow]

16 hours ago, pogi said:

It is important to distinguish between the light of Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the gift of the Holy Ghost.  The only one that requires authority is the gift of the Holy Ghost.  A gift that must be "received" by baptized members and not necessarily obtained by all.

If the Holy Ghost works in anyone, at any time, then it seems superfluous for that person to have the gift of the Holy Ghost.  I'd wager there are tons of people who are closer to God outside the church, perhaps than those in it.  But I guess we shall see. 

[Bernard Gui]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Claiming something is easy.  I'm not too concerned.  God is over all.  The LDS Church may have authority from God.  I dont' know.  But if it does, it certainly doesnt' mean there is no other way to God.  I think there is.  That is any person can travel down the road of their traditions and still make it back to God, without ever having to come into the Church.  I think we just interpret things a little goofy--see things a little too literally. 

It's not easy to find a way around this....

Quote

Alma 38:9 And now, my son, I have told you this that ye may learn wisdom, that ye may learn of me that there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ. Behold, he is the life and the light of the world. Behold, he is the word of truth and righteousness.

Quote

Alma 21:9 Now Aaron began to open the scriptures unto them concerning the coming of Christ, and also concerning the resurrection of the dead, and that there could be no redemption for mankind save it were through the death and sufferings of Christ, and the atonement of his blood.

John 14:2-6 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Bernard Gui]

To me, the question becomes "are ordinances required for salvation?" 

If the answer is yes, then many other questions follow.

There used to be a lot of discussions with non-Mormons here. The topic of authority frequently came up.

the debate always came back to 

Quote

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Does "born of water" mean baptized?

If the answer is yes, then by whom, when, how come into play.

 

[Meerkat]

17 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I no longer think of the HG as having a distinct consciousness.  Rather I think the HG is the experience people have inside their mind when they experience elevation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_(emotion)) and this experience is commonly interpreted as a divine experience.  

Because these experiences are subjective, they don't prove any objective and universal claims about a one true institution, or one path to salvation.  I think all of those exclusivity arguments are just humans doing what humans do, putting together post hoc justifications for their beliefs.  I don't see any of that as divine or inspired or even necessary.  These claims can create group cohesion, but at the expense of alienation and othering.  I think the cons definitely outweigh the pros.  

Its interesting that Joseph Smith's original orientation was to eschew the institutional claims (remember his Dad and grandfather were universalists and had that independent streak where they didn't think you need a church to have a relationship with God), if you read the BoM and other early revelations they don't talk about a specific church denomination being exclusively true.  I listened to a really fascinating presentation on this subject at Sunstone by Christopher C. Smith, about the early church development and his hypothesis is that Cowdery was the driving force behind forming a church, not Joseph.  Its really a compelling idea, he's working on an essay that he told me would be completed sometime this fall.  

In summary, the HG doesn't work the way that many religions claim it does.  Actually, if you ask people about there individual experiences, the experience itself is largely independent from their interpretation of the experience.  They will tell you how they felt and how impactful the feelings were, but it is the explanation of what it means that comes second, and this is how our minds make sense of experiences.  We have the experience, but we then create the story to explain what it means.  Its that story that is separate from the experience, that is used to justify a truth claim about a religion.  

I read your definition of elevation, and agree that witnessing a perfect performance, or act of particular goodness can and often does elicit a feeling similar to (Or maybe actually is) the influence of the Holy Ghost.

I appreciate the thought you have given how the Holy Ghost may actually operate, and the part we play by interpreting those feelings.  That whole process is also a mystery to me, nevertheless real.  My question also goes to how others outside the Mormon faith deal with the important issue of authority.  

Interesting comment regarding Oliver Cowdery. Regardless of the part he played in the Restoration, the appearance of HF and the Savior to the Prophet Josep Smith indicates to me that Joseph Smith was the one God chose as prophet of the Restoration.  The Holy Ghost testifying  (as I interpret my experience,) to the Book of Mormon also lends credence to Joseph's position.

[stemelbow]

33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It's not easy to find a way around this....

 

Sure there is.  That's the whole point of temple work. That is everyone who never heard of Jesus still has a chance, just as well as those who have heard of Jesus.  Everyone who has not joined the Church still has a chance.  That's how you get around the notion that everyone on earth must accept Jesus and His Church.  They don't have to on this earth. 

[Duncan]

My take is AA, Lion's Club, Kiwanis, Oklahoma Order of Sacred Antelopes can change lives but what God wants is a changed heart and contrite spirit. I think and hope the Holy Ghost is working on people all over the world to accept the gospel here or in the next life. Authority comes next with what to do with a changed heart and changing life, baptism, Holy Ghost, Endure to the end with joy through Temple ordinances. Anyone can repent and have faith in Christ but what's next is also important. Hopefully our Church can add to someone's faith in Christ

[pogi]

52 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If the Holy Ghost works in anyone, at any time, then it seems superfluous for that person to have the gift of the Holy Ghost.  I'd wager there are tons of people who are closer to God outside the church, perhaps than those in it.  But I guess we shall see. 

It is important to keep in mind that the Holy Ghost plays several roles such as protector, revelator, and comforter.  If these were the only roles of the Holy Ghost, I would agree that the gift would be superfluous.  However, the gift of the Holy Ghost is the key which allows an individual to experience the spirit in yet another role as a sanctifier and purifier through the baptism of fire - which is not accessible by "anyone, at any time", but is an ordinance reserved for those who have the ordinance performed, and subsequently "receive" the gift. 

[Meerkat]

18 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

1. Because, while  there is only one path which will lead a person all the way back to God, there are many paths which will lead him most of the way there.

I particularly like your thought here.  I wonder what Catholics and others who are not Mormons think about it.

[Meerkat]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Here is an apostle preaching directly from the Bible:  

 

This is a great example illustrating how humility can convey a message, or not.  

[Meerkat]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

I really hope Eternity isn't choosing the one best choice out of all the rest each time a choice is presented us.

I really like the whole 31 flavours concept of life.

Agreed.  We have our agency, and the agency of the Holy Ghost resulting in infinite possibilities.  Considering the results of some of my choices here, I would hope my choices over yonder are nearer the top of the scale. Although I can't complain considering all of my choices have resulted in a significant amount of happiness in this life.  So maybe 31 flavors it is!

[stemelbow]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is important to keep in mind that the Holy Ghost plays several roles such as protector, revelator, and comforter.  If these were the only roles of the Holy Ghost, I would agree that the gift would be superfluous.  However, the gift of the Holy Ghost is the key which allows an individual to experience the spirit in yet another role as a sanctifier and purifier through the baptism of fire - which is not accessible by "anyone, at any time", but is an ordinance reserved for those who have the ordinance performed, and subsequently "receive" the gift. 

Are Mormons then blessed beyond those who aren't, would you say?

[Meerkat]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

I think that Christ really believed that we should love God with all our heart.  That can be a very individual journey. Not everyone's heart feels the exact same things.  Being true to your own feelings and inspiration is very much a part of that commandment.  It is really irrelevant what is in another man's heart.  They are not you and it is not your concern.

Then the second thing that Christ really cared about is how we love and treat others.  If we fail at this, then it really doesn't matter much what other areas we have succeeded in.  Nor does it matter what church you attended.

The Holy Ghost's mission is to help us succeed in both commandments.  If you are successful in doing those two things, then I can't see  what religion you belong to has any relevance.  Everything else can be sorted out after we die.  But if you do not succeed in doing what these two commandments, then all the other details of what church you belong to or what ordinances you have participated in or how many meetings you have attended really don't matter one bit.

Thank you.  I agree with your comments, including that everything else can be sorted out after we die.  Earth life is a preparatory state.

[CV75]

18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Are Mormons then blessed beyond those who aren't, would you say?

In a very narrow sense, yes. The Mormon Church is the only place those ordinances are availed on Earth. Each Mormon must qualify to obtain those blessings, and every non-Mormon can come to qualify and obtain those blessings, if not on Earth then in the Spirit world. So, in a very broad sense, no.

[Meerkat]

3 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

That is my take on D&C 1:30, which, it happens, does not say "only true church" but something quite different.  I posted that reading many times here and elsewhere, and published in the Interpreter.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/sophic-box-and-mantic-vista-a-review-of-deconstructing-mormonism/

And besides Bernard's apt scripture quotes on the non-exclusivity of faith, virtue, and inspiration, (there are many more), there is this from Joseph Smith:

History of the Church 4:595

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I enjoyed your Interpreter post.  The Joseph Smith quotation encapsulates the character of the God I worship.  Thank you.

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Any virtue displayed by anyone who is not LDS is clearly false and is an illusion created by Satan to deceive the faithful. Take it from me. They are all delraved psychopaths who secretly want to rape and murder you and steal all your stuff before offering your soul to the infernal powers in exchange for demonic favors.

You have been warned.

😈😱

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

It is important to keep in mind that the Holy Ghost plays several roles such as protector, revelator, and comforter.  If these were the only roles of the Holy Ghost, I would agree that the gift would be superfluous.  However, the gift of the Holy Ghost is the key which allows an individual to experience the spirit in yet another role as a sanctifier and purifier through the baptism of fire - which is not accessible by "anyone, at any time", but is an ordinance reserved for those who have the ordinance performed, and subsequently "receive" the gift.

 

44 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Are Mormons then blessed beyond those who aren't, would you say?

Definitely more blessed because more knowledge is given.
Although there is a common practice in the Church to attribute more effect to the Holy Ghost than is right.

 

Joseph Smith - The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.  TPJS 149-150

Edited August 11, 2017 by JLHPROF

[stemelbow]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 

Definitely more blessed because more knowledge is given.
Although there is a common practice in the Church to attribute more effect to the Holy Ghost than is right.

 

Joseph Smith - The Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.  TPJS 149-150

Thanks.  It's kind of silly sounding now to talk about having the blood of Abraham versus those who don't, these days.  It makes ya wonder what blood is not of Abraham and what the purging of the blood may entail.  Sounds like quite a process.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

In a very narrow sense, yes. The Mormon Church is the only place those ordinances are availed on Earth. Each Mormon must qualify to obtain those blessings, and every non-Mormon can come to qualify and obtain those blessings, if not on Earth then in the Spirit world. So, in a very broad sense, no.

 

It makes ya wonder the importance of this world then.  If, say, someone who never was Mormon gets exalted, then perhaps others in such a situation will be too.  Chances are, if that is the case, there will be far more exalted people that were never Mormon then there will be that were Mormon.  If so, what benefit was it to be Mormon?  To be found in these last days living amongst the elite? 

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Are Mormons then blessed beyond those who aren't, would you say?

Speaking of my own experience as a converted Christian in and out of the Church, I would say yes, in my instance.  Other Christian friends of mine who are not Mormon, feel blessed beyond measure also.  So the answer would be subjective in this life, imo.  I'm all in regarding what the future may bring beyond this life.  If I am right, the difference is spectacularly significant.  I am a "true believer, " so expect I am right.  If I am wrong, what have I lost?  Nothing that i can see.  I've enjoyed good health, associating with virtuous people and the enjoyment of interesting conversations with friends like you. ☺

Edited August 11, 2017 by Meerkat

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

I particularly like your thought here.  I wonder what Catholics and others who are not Mormons think about it.

I like the analogy of traveling far to climb a very tall mountain.  As you begin on the flatland, there are many ways to approach and one can even wander quite a bit while still heading in the right direction.  As you get closer, you need to start making choices that take you forward or back, wandering may be enjoyable and may even prepare one better for the climb, but is less productive in terms of actual progress.  There may be several approaches at the foot of the mountain, but as you move up it some may turn into dead ends causing some needed backtracking.  Fewer take you closer to the top the higher you go and become more dangerous to attempt.  Eventually there is only one path that takes you all the way to the summit.****

****I know there are mountains that may have multiple access to their summit. This mountain does not.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

It makes ya wonder the importance of this world then.  If, say, someone who never was Mormon gets exalted, then perhaps others in such a situation will be too.  Chances are, if that is the case, there will be far more exalted people that were never Mormon then there will be that were Mormon.  If so, what benefit was it to be Mormon?  To be found in these last days living amongst the elite? 

What benefit is it to go to university if in the next life all those who desire it will receive the full knowledge of God?  What benefit to eat healthy and exercise if we will all be given perfect bodies in the next life?

Edited August 11, 2017 by Calm

[Meerkat]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

What benefit is it to go to university if in the next life all those who desire it will receive the full knowledge of God?  What benefit to eat healthy and exercise if we will all be given perfect bodies in the next life?

Right.  Eat healthy, get plenty of exercise, die anyway.  Hardly seems fair, does it.  Unless the purpose is obedience, along the lines "I didn't ask you to move the rock, only push it."