"Thorn In The Flesh" (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) Questions

[Peppermint Patty]

2 Corinthians 12:7-10:

⁷And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

⁸For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

⁹And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

¹⁰Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I have recently studied these verses about Paul's "thorn in the flesh" and have done a little research, but I still have several questions. I would greatly appreciate some help/thoughts:

-The "thorn" is given to us for making sure we stay dependent on the Lord. Does this necessarily have to do with sin? Could it be serious health issues, financial problems, or any other issue? What was Paul’s “thorn”?

-Paul describes the "messenger from Satan" in these passages. My confusion is if the Lord actually sends Satan to tempt and test us or if there may be some sort of translation error in this passage?

-According to these verses, some “thorns” will always be there to torment us and, more importantly, make us always dependent on the Lord. It appears that none of us, in this life, can expect to completely overcome our “thorn”, despite our best efforts.

-I also thought It was interesting that Paul asked the Lord three times to remove this weakness, but the “thorn” was never removed.

Thoughts…

[DarkScythe]

This is my opinion only. Well it is more important to strive to overcome weakness than to overcome weakness. There is a fine line between Self Confidence, arrogance and reliance on the Lord. Self confidence is knowing that you are not perfect, knowing your own skill level with good confidence and there is room for improvement. Self Confidence without humility will lead to Arrogance. Reliance on the Lord is a form of humility that we can keep perfecting ourselves even after death. Over reliance on the Lord is a form of arrogance because of the afterlife princple and it potential to produce laziness in this life.

Honest humility is good for Self-Confidence and reliance on the Lord.

Edited January 18, 2012 by DarkScythe

[DavidC]

I've read Paul likely had eye problems.

[Peppermint Patty]

I've read Paul likely had eye problems.

Thanks, DavidC. Do you happen to know what kind of eye problems Paul had?

I think it's interesting that the Lord would not heal Paul of this problem, even after being asked three times. Maybe the Lord felt that Paul needed this affliction to keep him humble.

[Anijen]

-According to these verses, some “thorns” will always be there to torment us and, more importantly, make us always dependent on the Lord. It appears that none of us, in this life, can expect to completely overcome our “thorn”, despite our best efforts.

Thoughts…

I slightly disagree, I believe people can overcome their thorn. Some thorns might take a life time to do it. I believe that if Paul's weakness was a sin and it plagued him a long time. I like to think he eventually overcame it. Since Paul as we know did not get rid of his thorn I like to think it wasn't a weakness like a favorite sin but an ailment.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (James 1:12-15)

I am thankful for his display of his humanism. I am of the opinion that Paul's thorn was not a sin but perhaps an ailment of some kind (perhaps his vision as one poster has mentioned).

Just my thoughts, as always I could be wrong.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Anijen

[frankenstein]

I have read his thorn was homosexual desires.

The verse quoted are supported by a similar verse in Ether. Weaknesses are given that we become strong and have faith in Christ. That the thorn may have never been removed does not take away from the message , that faith in Christ can help us overcome a si, or unrighteous desire.

[Peppermint Patty]

I have read his thorn was homosexual desires.

I have never heard this before. Very interesting. This could possibly explain one of the reasons Paul never married. Indeed, he exhorts widows to "remain single as I do" (1 Cor. 7:8 ).

Edited January 19, 2012 by Peppermint Patty

[Duncan]

I wonder if it wasn't depression...? There is a a verse that says something like "my desire is to depart" implying that life was dark and dreary and so

[The Nehor]

I slightly disagree, I believe people can overcome their thorn. Some thorns might take a life time to do it. I believe that if Paul's weakness was a sin and it plagued him a long time. I like to think he eventually overcame it. Since Paul as we know did not get rid of his thorn I like to think it wasn't a weakness like a favorite sin but an ailment.

I think it was a favorite sin and I agree they don't go away. One of the best talks I ever heard in Church was given by an elderly (eighty-some-odd years) member of the Church. It was basically a warning that temptations never go away. They just change. It doesn't get easier. He spoke of a temptation he had struggled with since he was 8. While he said he hadn't succumbed for decades the temptation still popped up. His basic thesis is that we can and should win victories over the flesh (and hell) but the final victory when the temptation dies will only come when we are given purer flesh.

[Peppermint Patty]

I think it was a favorite sin and I agree they don't go away. One of the best talks I ever heard in Church was given by an elderly (eighty-some-odd years) member of the Church. It was basically a warning that temptations never go away. They just change. It doesn't get easier. He spoke of a temptation he had struggled with since he was 8. While he said he hadn't succumbed for decades the temptation still popped up. His basic thesis is that we can and should win victories over the flesh (and hell) but the final victory when the temptation dies will only come when we are given purer flesh.

Nehor, thank you. Sometimes I think we tend to view our struggles, weaknesses and temptations as a sign that we are not good or worthy. I know we, especially as women, can feel a tremendous amount of guilt or shame if we can't overcome them.

I think it's important to know that EVERYONE regardless of stature in the Church has struggles, weaknesses and temptations. We will only become perfected through the Savior in the next life.

[LeSellers]

Being tempted is not a sin. Even Christ was tempted of the devil after His fast and by passers-by and the two malefactors on the cross. The key is, He did not succumb.

Sin is willful rebellion against God. Thus, one cannot sin in ignorance. But we all, even those who have not received the fulness of the Gospel, have enough of God's law in our hearts (or wherever you think it may reside) to go contrary to that knowledge, so we are all rebels to one extent or another.

Lehi

[Thunderfire]

-The "thorn" is given to us for making sure we stay dependent on the Lord. Does this necessarily have to do with sin? Could it be serious health issues, financial problems, or any other issue? What was Paul’s “thorn”?

I would like to weigh in with my opinion on what this verse taught me. First, we are told the reason for the thorn when Paul writes: "To keep me from becomming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations". This is a real gem of insight regarding how Jesus works with his servants. He knows our hearts better than we do and he knew Paul's tendency to be conceited. Not a good trait for a servant of God to have!

This also introduces a whole new paradigm of atonement to consider when Paul asks three times to have this thorn removed with the Lord saying, "My grace is sufficient for you." So in essence, the Lord was willing to bear this burden with Paul (having first allowed this to happen), so that Paul would be able to receive those surpassingly great revelations he was ordained to bring forth, and in the process not become an enemy of the Lord due to his conceit.

Now after MUCH prayer regarding this thorn, this is the imagery which came to my mind: Paul's thorn was the remembrance of how he vigoroursly persecuted those he was now sent to be a servant too. While we see how many responded to his ministry, there would also have been many who remembered who he was in the past and would not trust him. So I believe this thorn represented that messanger of satan, continuously reminding him of his prior acts which in the end, causing him to see himself as the worst of sinners.

Anyway, just my thoughts and something to consider!

[DBMormon]

Hey Peppermint Patty - God's Grace is one of the most mis-understood doctrines in the church and unforunately even leaders of the church mis-state it's real function. Listen to the following talks and then read Grace in the bible dictionary of your LDS sccriptures. There is a distict difference in it's definition. Grace VS Works and Nephi's after all you can do

These talks are awesome - you will have to do a google search and find the MP3 file for these and listen to them. IF you are short on time I recommend the two in Blue to listen to first

Robert Millet - What we believe

Brad Wilcox - Grace is Suffcient

Stephen Robinson - believing Christ

Robert millet - Grace after all we can

Brad Wilcox - Faith, anchor to my soul

[Rivers]

2 Corinthians 12:7-10:

I have recently studied these verses about Paul's "thorn in the flesh" and have done a little research, but I still have several questions. I would greatly appreciate some help/thoughts:

-The "thorn" is given to us for making sure we stay dependent on the Lord. Does this necessarily have to do with sin? Could it be serious health issues, financial problems, or any other issue? What was Paul’s “thorn”?

-Paul describes the "messenger from Satan" in these passages. My confusion is if the Lord actually sends Satan to tempt and test us or if there may be some sort of translation error in this passage?

-According to these verses, some “thorns” will always be there to torment us and, more importantly, make us always dependent on the Lord. It appears that none of us, in this life, can expect to completely overcome our “thorn”, despite our best efforts.

-I also thought It was interesting that Paul asked the Lord three times to remove this weakness, but the “thorn” was never removed.

Thoughts…

I like to think the thorn in the flesh wasn't necessarally sin. It could have been any kind of problem in his life that would tempt him to curse God. I have my own personal thorn in the flesh that doesn't seem to be getting removed any time soon. However, I do have control over how I deal with it.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Rivers

[ERayR]

Thanks, DavidC. Do you happen to know what kind of eye problems Paul had?

I think it's interesting that the Lord would not heal Paul of this problem, even after being asked three times. Maybe the Lord felt that Paul needed this affliction to keep him humble.

Well he was blinded for three days on the way to Damascus. Perhaps some lasting effects?

Edited March 31, 2012 by ERayR

[ERayR]

I have read his thorn was homosexual desires.

The verse quoted are supported by a similar verse in Ether. Weaknesses are given that we become strong and have faith in Christ. That the thorn may have never been removed does not take away from the message , that faith in Christ can help us overcome a si, or unrighteous desire.

Where does that come from? References Please.

[blackstrap]

In years past I remember that that thorn was epilepsy.Can't give references though.

[Stargazer]

I have never heard this before. Very interesting. This could possibly explain one of the reasons Paul never married. Indeed, he exhorts widows to "remain single as I do" (1 Cor. 7:8 ).

Do we know that Paul never married? Wives are not often mentioned in scripture -- Peter being an exception among the apostles, but it is reasonable to suppose that most if not all of the apostles were married, or ? Paul may also have been a widower and thus unmarried.

[katherine the great]

This is my opinion only. Well it is more important to strive to overcome weakness than to overcome weakness. There is a fine line between Self Confidence, arrogance and reliance on the Lord. Self confidence is knowing that you are not perfect, knowing your own skill level with good confidence and there is room for improvement. Self Confidence without humility will lead to Arrogance. Reliance on the Lord is a form of humility that we can keep perfecting ourselves even after death. Over reliance on the Lord is a form of arrogance because of the afterlife princple and it potential to produce laziness in this life. Honest humility is good for Self-Confidence and reliance on the Lord.

I like this post.

[Bond...James Bond]

The thorn = Type II Diabetes.

[JDave]

Nehor, thank you. Sometimes I think we tend to view our struggles, weaknesses and temptations as a sign that we are not good or worthy. I know we, especially as women, can feel a tremendous amount of guilt or shame if we can't overcome them.

I think it's important to know that EVERYONE regardless of stature in the Church has struggles, weaknesses and temptations. We will only become perfected through the Savior in the next life.

I like the post Katherine quoted, and I really like this post too.

[katherine the great]

The thorn = Type II Diabetes.

Type I too. (my baby girl.)

[Bond...James Bond]

Type I too. (my baby girl.)

Indeed.

[bluebell]

It seems like any declaration of what Paul's thorn may have been can only be pure speculation since it's information we have not been given. As interesting as it is to think of what it might have been, they are just guesses, and probably not even educated guesses at that.

[katherine the great]

It seems like any declaration of what Paul's thorn may have been can only be pure speculation since it's information we have not been given. As interesting as it is to think of what it might have been, they are just guesses, and probably not even educated guesses at that.

Right. He probably would have said what it was if he wanted to disclose it. Or maybe it was common knowledge among the people of Corinth. It also could have been just a general propensity to sin. Whatever it was though, it is good to know that even the Lord's anointed struggle with the same type of challenges the rest of us do. It reinforces their humanity.