Is It Wrong?

[JDave]

As I was thinking about pain recently, and its role in our lives, I pondered on how people react to pain -- particularly those who are religious. Since the majority of my experience is within the LDS church, that is where I feel most comfortable speaking to (and questioning about) general tendencies.

While I think people almost universally view pain as being undesirable and best avoided, do some LDS and others tend to view pain as being inherently wrong? I thought to post this topic when I read the following from Peppermint Patty.

Sometimes I think we tend to view our struggles, weaknesses and temptations as a sign that we are not good or worthy. I know we, especially as women, can feel a tremendous amount of guilt or shame if we can't overcome them.

I think it's important to know that EVERYONE regardless of stature in the Church has struggles, weaknesses and temptations. We will only become perfected through the Savior in the next life.

This made me think back to my ponderings on pain. Do some people view pain as a sign that they are not worthy, that they would not be feeling such hurt and suffering if they were righteous enough and close enough to the Lord that He would make that pain go away? Is such a view valid?

Comments on similar views on weaknesses and temptations are welcome because I think they really are in the same vein.

[The Nehor]

Pain is an evil in the same way that suffering is an evil. There is such a thing as necessary evils.

One only needs to read the scriptures to know that suffering is not a sign of unworthiness. If it were the prophets would have had easier lives and the stories in the scriptures would have been much more dull.

[mercyngrace]

This made me think back to my ponderings on pain. Do some people view pain as a sign that they are not worthy, that they would not be feeling such hurt and suffering if they were righteous enough and close enough to the Lord that He would make that pain go away? Is such a view valid?

Pain isn't evil, it's educational.

Some of it we deserve because of our choices, some of it we suffer because of another's choices, and some of it we inherit because of our mortal condition but ALL of it is part of the plan that requires opposition for progress.

And ALL of it, if we so allow, permits "the works of God [to be] be manifest".

Edited March 31, 2012 by mercyngrace

[Mudcat]

This made me think back to my ponderings on pain. Do some people view pain as a sign that they are not worthy, that they would not be feeling such hurt and suffering if they were righteous enough and close enough to the Lord that He would make that pain go away? Is such a view valid?

Comments on similar views on weaknesses and temptations are welcome because I think they really are in the same vein.

Pain is a real broad topic. There so many kinds of pain but all boil down to mental and/or physical.

Some pain seems to have value in that it teaches us practical things.. don't touch the hot stove, tie your shoes, etc. I see that as a "good" sort of pain.. at least in the sense we can readily learn something from it. But I think we all realize that.

Some lessons are very obvious.. some are more difficult. Does the person who suffers the sudden loss of a loved one learn that life is precious and we do well to cherish the moments we have here with our loved ones or do they choose to learn something else that is unproductive from it?

There are two kinds of pain that we all have trouble with, I think.

One is the pain we either receive from others or inflict upon others due to our unrighteous actions. I see this sort of pain a consequence of not seeking God. A man with a family and a problem with compulsive gambling and alcohol can wreak an enormous amount of destructive injury through his unrighteousness. The consequences of sin are ultimately painful. In this sense they are a sign of the unworthiness of those who inflict it either upon themselves or others. The only lesson of value I see in such, is that we all need Christ because we all fall short of what he has done for us. We all need Christ because it is through him that we can find healing.

The other is the pain we often don't understand. The world is full of things that seem to hurt us and we don't often have good answers. Why did the nice lady get paralyzed in wreck, why did the child get terminal cancer, why were those people people killed in a storm, and so on. It's hard to grasp any useful lesson when we are faced with painful consequences that we can see no immediate necessity for. To me this sort of pain is the much less directly observable as a consequence of sin and it's easy to misunderstand it. I think we want to interpersonalize things like this when we shouldn't. We live in a broken world and sin is what has broken it. The world is no different than us, it needs the hand of the master architect to rebuild it and one day He shall.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Mudcat

[Fig-bearing Thistle]

I believe that God still suffers pain--that is pain of spirit because of the wickedness of his children, and the suffering that they do and will bring upon themselves through disobedience.

[Nominee]

I think of pain and suffering to be a part of refinement, which is a good thing.

I like this quote:

The price we paid to become acquainted with God was a privilege to pay, and I am thankful that I was privileged to come in the Martin Handcart Company.’”

edit: I want to add this:

Here, then, is a great truth. In the pain, the agony, and the heroic endeavors of life, we pass through a refiner’s fire, and the insignificant and the unimportant in our lives can melt away like dross and make our faith bright, intact, and strong.

and the article it came from.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Nominee

[Reflexzero]

I think we have a perspective on pain that is very narrow, and western minded. It serves some purpose, teaches some lesson.

I would like to know what lesson little kids who are flayed alive are intended to learn. What is the purpose of warlords who torture and maim? Is it for power and wealth? How are the ultimate injustices inflicted upon the helpless balanced out in any possible way? Human beings are boundless in those capacity to create, and that includes cruelty and malice.

But we, in our narrow western conservative view, we forget that atrocities are committed in the world every day, because it is some other country or place we don't think about. We instead take comfort in all our self centered hope, and wring our hands over depression and harassment. We post inspirational thoughts on Facebook and sent chain letter emails. We take drugs to help us cope with stress and sleeplessness. We buy endless self help books and make sure there is a nice centerpiece on the Relief Society table. We worry about cliques and are subject to social pressures in Church and life that seem to hang over us like endless dark clouds, then agonize about our self worth, status, and position.

But for us, the world ends outside the circles of gossip and capitalism. We are so wound up in our callings and responsibilities, Church and family politics, that we have a hard time relating to anything else. Our concept of pain is a limited view. An inspirational quote does little to help those who were not born into this perceived privlege.

Pain is a weapon used by some to control others, the same as fear and guilt. We may comfort ourselves by saying it all works out in the eternities, but that is just an excuse really, to stop thinking about things that make us uncomfortable, or are so horrible they can't possibly be true.

[katherine the great]

Pain is a sign of life.

[JDave]

Thanks for the comments. Good stuff here. I see some things I strongly identify with, and some that don't jive with my current understanding.

The Nehor: Pain is an evil... There is such a thing as necessary evils.

If you mean pain is unpleasant and there are some unpleasant things that are necessary than we agree. I think 'evil' often is viewed as the opposite of "what should be", and so to say that it is a necessary evil could be similar to Mudcat's statement I quote next.

Mudcat: We live in a broken world and sin is what has broken it. The world is no different than us, it needs the hand of the master architect to rebuild it and one day He shall.

I agree that pain comes at times merely from the fact that we live in this world. I don't agree with the sentiment that when the world is healed and fixed that pain will then disappear. This implies that pain "should not be". It may be necessary for this mortal time, but in the eternities it is wrong and will be gone. I think this can warp the meaning as to why pain truly is necessary.

mercyngrace: ALL of it is part of the plan that requires opposition for progress.

I think this can sometimes be viewed in the same way as the above, that God instituted pain for this time so we could progress but once we are righteous enough and perfect enough where progression isn't necessary then the pain will go away forever. In the LDS context some say that progression is eternal so this could be easily read to say that pain will continue to be a factor even after the resurrection. But I think it is easy to view all that opposition disappearing in heaven. I would guess that a large number of LDS and other Christians view heaven as a place of nothing but resting from the pain and toil of this life.

Fig-bearing Thistle: I believe that God still suffers pain

This is apparent to me as well, which really makes me question pain as limited to this mortal life. The war in heaven implies pain in the pre-mortal life, and God's tears over his children's lack of love implies pain in the post-mortal (and even the divine) life.

Reflexzero: We instead take comfort in all our self centered hope, and wring our hands over depression and harassment.

I don't see how some else's pain, while it may be degrees of magnitude larger than ours, invalidates or cheapens the pain we go through.

We may comfort ourselves by saying it all works out in the eternities, but that is just an excuse really

I think there is some real truth here. It is a way of saying "Get over it". Pain, whether small or great, does not need to be explained away. God's understanding of how things would work out in the eternities did not eliminate the pain He felt over His childrens' embrace of hatred and malice.

[JDave]

Pain is a sign of life.

"Life is pain, Highness."

While not as accurate as your statement, I do love "The Princess Bride".

[Nominee]

I am grateful that we continue to bear children and raise families for all eternity so I believe that pain and opposition would continue to exist ~just not as a negative, just not from sin.

edit: just not as we understand and define it now, here.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Nominee

[bcuzbcuz]

While I think people almost universally view pain as being undesirable and best avoided, do some LDS and others tend to view pain as being inherently wrong?

Do some people view pain as a sign that they are not worthy, that they would not be feeling such hurt and suffering if they were righteous enough and close enough to the Lord that He would make that pain go away? Is such a view valid?

In the United States, Hispanic and African Americans are more likely to suffer needlessly in the hands of a physician than whites;[40][41] and women's pain is more likely to be undertreated than men's.[42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_management

40.^ Bonham, VL (2001). "Race, ethnicity, and pain treatment: Striving to understand the causes and solutions to the disparities in pain treatment". Journal of law, medicine & ethics, 29: 52–68.

41.^ Green, GR; Anderson, KO; Baker, TA et al; Campbell, LC; Decker, S; Fillingim, RB; Kalauokalani, DA; Lasch, KE et al (2003). "The unequal burden of pain: Confronting racial and ethnic disparities in pain". Pain medicine 4 (3): 277–94. doi:10.1046/j.1526-4637.2003.03034.x. PMID 12974827.

42.^ Hoffmann, DE; Tarzian, AJ (2001). "The Girl Who Cried Pain: A Bias Against Women in the Treatment of Pain". Journal of law, medicine & ethics 29 (1): 13–27. PMID 11521267.

[SearchDog]

Pain is the natural result of the Fall of Adam. Pain (suffering) is the unavoidable reality of our imperfect world.

I do not connect individual struggles with our God as a punishment for our unworthiness. The punishment for unworthiness (sin) is exacted at the spiritual level upon our death when we will be judged.

Buddha dedicated his search to the topic of "why there is suffering" and was enlightened to the truth. He found that suffering exists because of the unbridled want of mankind. Remove the want and the suffering is relieved.

Why else would Christ place charity as so high a discipline?

As for the pain of real medical conditions, both physical and mental, the LDS Church believes in taking advantage of scientific discoveries while maintaining and perfecting the spirit through correct behavior.

Faith does cure and so does medicine.

[mercyngrace]

mercyngrace: ALL of it is part of the plan that requires opposition for progress.

I think this can sometimes be viewed in the same way as the above, that God instituted pain for this time so we could progress but once we are righteous enough and perfect enough where progression isn't necessary then the pain will go away forever. In the LDS context some say that progression is eternal so this could be easily read to say that pain will continue to be a factor even after the resurrection. But I think it is easy to view all that opposition disappearing in heaven. I would guess that a large number of LDS and other Christians view heaven as a place of nothing but resting from the pain and toil of this life.

God wept over the suffering of His children prompting Enoch to ask why. Jesus wept over the tomb of His friend. I don't think righteousness in necessarily tied to the suffering of pain. In some cases, our righteousness causes us pain. Think of all those BOM prophets who wept over the sinfulness of their people and even their enemies.

I don't believe that God instituted pain. I think God understands the natural causes of pain and designed a plan that maximizes the educational benefit of the pain we were already destined to endure. We would either suffer infinitely as lesser, ignorant beings or suffer temporarily (mostly) as progressing, increasingly wise beings.

In other words, He didn't create pain. He provided a way to grow beyond the pain's sting.

Edited March 31, 2012 by mercyngrace

[mfbukowski]

Pain is yummy. I eat it for breakfast. It lets us know we are still alive and there are more pains to overcome.

[katherine the great]

"Life is pain, Highness."

While not as accurate as your statement, I do love "The Princess Bride".

Me too! One of my favorites!

[katherine the great]

Pain is yummy. I eat it for breakfast. It lets us know we are still alive and there are more pains to overcome.

That sounds vaguely warped.

[Calm]

That attitude often comes with age or health issues that make one feel like age is hitting one faster than the calendar says it is.

[mfbukowski]

That sounds vaguely warped.

So this is news??

[Log]

And another thing: whence cometh the notion of God as the Great Care Bear in the Sky, whose works are solely to produce rainbows and butterflies and tropical paradises?

... and, with specific reference to the quote from PP in the OP: she's got an unfortunate perspective on a very important matter. I plan on starting my own thread on the topic, but it will take a lot of time and research, and even then some will disagree.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Log

[selek1]

Relevant to the point, and a darned good read.

Meantime we have learned the doctrine that evil means pain, and the revolt aginst pain in all its forms has grown more and more marked. From societies for the prevention of cruelty to animals up to socialism, we express in numberless ways the notion that suffering is a wrong which can be and ought to be prevented, and a whole literature of sympathy has sprung into being which points out in story and in verse how hard it is to be wounded in the battle of life, how terrible, how unjust it is that any one should fail.

Even science has had its part in the tendencies which we observe. It has shaken established religion in the minds of very many. It has pursued analysis until at last this thrilling world of colors and passions and sounds has seemed fatally to resolve itself into one vast network of vibrations endlessly weaving an aimless web, and the rainbow flush of cathedral windows, which once to enraptured eyes appeared the very smile of God, fades slowly out into the pale irony of the void.

And yet from vast orchestras still comes the music of mighty symphonies. Our painters even now are spreading along the walls of our Library glowing symbols of mysteries still real, and the hardly silenced cannon of the East proclaim once more that combat and pain still are the portion of man. For my own part, I believe that the struggle for life is the order of the world, at which it is vain to repine. I can imagine the burden changed in the way it is to be borne, but I cannot imagine that it ever will be lifted from men's backs. I can imagine a future in which science shall have passed from the combative to the dogmatic stage, and shall have gained such catholic acceptance that it shall take control of life, and condemn at once with instant execution what now is left for nature to destroy. But we are far from such a future, and we cannot stop to amuse or to terrify ourselves with dreams.

http://www.harvardregiment.org/holmesfa.htm

Wish I could write like that!

[The Nehor]

I think we have a perspective on pain that is very narrow, and western minded. It serves some purpose, teaches some lesson.

I would like to know what lesson little kids who are flayed alive are intended to learn. What is the purpose of warlords who torture and maim? Is it for power and wealth? How are the ultimate injustices inflicted upon the helpless balanced out in any possible way? Human beings are boundless in those capacity to create, and that includes cruelty and malice.

They are balanced by the atonement of Christ who will see that all pain teaches, that all pain is recompensed, and that the scars and wounds (physical, mental, and emotional) are all healed. Nor do I believe that humanity has an endless capacity to cause suffering.

"Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever."

But we, in our narrow western conservative view, we forget that atrocities are committed in the world every day, because it is some other country or place we don't think about. We instead take comfort in all our self centered hope, and wring our hands over depression and harassment. We post inspirational thoughts on Facebook and sent chain letter emails. We take drugs to help us cope with stress and sleeplessness. We buy endless self help books and make sure there is a nice centerpiece on the Relief Society table. We worry about cliques and are subject to social pressures in Church and life that seem to hang over us like endless dark clouds, then agonize about our self worth, status, and position.

But for us, the world ends outside the circles of gossip and capitalism. We are so wound up in our callings and responsibilities, Church and family politics, that we have a hard time relating to anything else. Our concept of pain is a limited view. An inspirational quote does little to help those who were not born into this perceived privlege.

After having kidney stones multiple times, seeing a friend killed, watching people I love endure through horrendous pain, loss, and suffering, seeing a friend beaten down by living amongst intense racism, and knowing that there is pain so intense that it terrified me that it might not kill me I disrespectfully disagree with your patronizing condescension about how we are all living in bubbles far removed from pain. Maybe your life is so good and you do so little with it that you despair at your own self-absorbtion but don't project it onto everyone else. I've seen too much sacrifice made on behalf of others, particularly by my fellow saints, to honestly believe your condescending judgment of their motives and pettiness.

As for inspirational quotes not helping what are you referring to? The scriptures? They were written by exiles, the condemned, and people under the threat of death and the suffering found solace in them to willingly embrace martyrdom and counting themselves blessed to suffer for their Savior. Perhaps you can't. That is not the problem of the martyrs who gave their lives due to their faith in those 'inspirational quotes' and the power behind them.

Pain is a weapon used by some to control others, the same as fear and guilt. We may comfort ourselves by saying it all works out in the eternities, but that is just an excuse really, to stop thinking about things that make us uncomfortable, or are so horrible they can't possibly be true.

They are true. I am reminded of them by the scriptures I am commanded to read daily. Uncomfortable? Of course they make me uncomfortable. They are supposed to. I am supposed to do what I can to mitigate or eliminate this kind of suffering. If you are instead suggesting we should fixate on the negative then I again disrespectfully disagree. I am not called to bear the sins and suffering of the whole world. One far greater then me took that assignment. I do what I can and trust the Savior to make all well because I have seen him do it.

Fixating on the glorious goal is not an attempt to hide from present reality or an excuse. It is a hope, a hope founded in faith and experiences I can't share.

Most pessimists love misery and resent that others refuse to wallow in it like they do:

[The Nehor]

And another thing: whence cometh the notion of God as the Great Care Bear in the Sky, whose works are solely to produce rainbows and butterflies and tropical paradises?

That's just most of what He does.

Just not right now. This life is as bad as the Universe gets....ever. Luckily it is relatively short, as pleasant as it often is, and it will never happen again. Plus those things are puerile compared to what real joy awaits in the heavens.

[Flyonthewall]

Pain is an indicator that something is wrong and needs fixing or healing. It is neither evil nor good.

If you cut your finger, the pain you feel is the location that needs healing.

If you sin, that is like a cut on your spirit, and is in need of healing/repentance.

One can be caused pain by the actions of another, and again, the source of the pain is the location that needs healing.

[JDave]

Pain is an indicator that something is wrong and needs fixing or healing. It is neither evil nor good.

If you cut your finger, the pain you feel is the location that needs healing.

If you sin, that is like a cut on your spirit, and is in need of healing/repentance.

One can be caused pain by the actions of another, and again, the source of the pain is the location that needs healing.

Pain can also be an indicator that something just hurts. If a close friend or family member dies, I am not sure what part of the accompanying pain needs to be 'healed'. Certainly if there is no understanding of the resurrection, or a temporary faltering in that understanding, then some healing may well be in order. But even with a solid understanding of the Atonement, and of the doctrine of the resurrection and eternal life, there is still some pain and hurt that accompanies losing a dear one. Even while we lift up our heads and rejoice in the great Plan of Salvation, we yet feel the pain of loss. I don't know if this needs to be healed as much as it simply needs to be processed and truly felt.

Did God need to be fixed or healed when he felt such great pain over His wayward children that He wept?