In What Ways Does God Test Our Faith?

[name]

Stem,

It was a sincere pleasure having this exchange with you. (Seriously)

Best wishes and be well, old friend!

[stemelbow]

Stem,

It was a sincere pleasure having this exchange with you. (Seriously)

Best wishes and be well, old friend!

I enjoyed it too.

I hope you stick around. My "get back to the trailer park" was not meant seriously.

[bluebell]

In the bible, the Savior talks about the 'pearl of great price' which the man had to give up everything in order to obtain.  It's my favorite parable because it teaches two things-

 

First, God really does require us to give up everything to get what He is offering, and that is a huge a test of faith-one that lasts our whole lives.  Once we realize and accept that, i think we do much better.

 

Second, Because of the Atonement of Christ, our 'all', whatever that is (and it's different for each of us) is truly and completely enough to gain the pearl.  

[Mystery Meat]

In the bible, the Savior talks about the 'pearl of great price' which the man had to give up everything in order to obtain.  It's my favorite parable because it teaches two things-

 

First, God really does require us to give up everything to get what He is offering, and that is a huge a test of faith-one that lasts our whole lives.  Once we realize and accept that, i think we do much better.

 

Second, Because of the Atonement of Christ, our 'all', whatever that is (and it's different for each of us) is truly and completely enough to gain the pearl.  

 

Well said.

 

My favorite story in the BOM is the conversion of King Lamoni's father. He was willing to give up his kingdom, and I believe only when our hearts are in such a circumstance are we going to be truly converted. Ultimately in his converting prayer did he say that he was willing to give up all of his sins to know God. Love it.

[mfbukowski]

Hi Stem!

We all fail miserably. We are all broken sinners.

Have you followed all of God's commands?

Yes, they are not mutually exclusive, but they are different.

A test is something presented to another (in this case - God presenting this test test to his creations) and a test is graded. There is a "score" attached to it. Do you feel that you can (or will) pass such a test?

A gift is something that is freely given (out of love with no strings attached). A gift is not earned - it is given.

I make no comment on who is saved or who is not. This is way outside of my mere authority (and IMO, it is way outside of the authority of any man, organization, or religious group to be suggesting such)

What must you do to be saved, Stem?

Must you follow certain commandments to live with God for eternity? What are they?

Have you followed every one of them?

You can run as long and as far as you like (IMO, it creates a life full of stress, feeling unworthy, discomfort, and its exhausting) it will have no impact on what Almighty God has already done on your (or my) behalf.

These are just my opinions!

No they're not, they are standard EV tactical apologetics.

We are all sinners and we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ as a gift we cannot earn.

What you don't know is that we agree with all that- and you just don't know how we understand it differently.

[mfbukowski]

Let me share another example.

 

I have said in the past that I struggled with an addiction to pornography. When I quit, like any other addiction I went through withdrawals. The first few weeks/months are terrible. You can feel your brain screaming at you. Now, everything that could go wrong in my life during that time did in fact go wrong. Educationally, physically, financially, etc. It made quitting that much harder. The addiction craved the drug even more. It wanted the comfort and bliss the porn brought more than ever.

 

I don't believe and I am confident that it was no coincidence that aspects of my life went to crap when I was trying to make a hard change. I think the Lord aloud it to be so intentionally because he wanted it to be HARD. He wanted it to test my metal. I think issues with church history are no different. There were times where I thought God should have taken all of those other complications out of my life because quitting porn was going to be hard enough on its own, but he didn't. My faith was tested, but ultimately it was rewarded.

 

I think the Lord has at the very least created a world where anything that could go wrong and challenge our faith, will go wrong and challenge our faith. Intentionally. Even in ways that in the short term seem cruel or unfair. Or even illogical. Faith is a choice. Bottom line. You can choose not to have faith, but it is a choice.

Maybe it was more that the adversary did not want to lose a servant than the Lord wanted to make the test hard.

His burden is easy.

[bluebell]

Well said.

 

My favorite story in the BOM is the conversion of King Lamoni's father. He was willing to give up his kingdom, and I believe only when our hearts are in such a circumstance are we going to be truly converted. Ultimately in his converting prayer did he say that he was willing to give up all of his sins to know God. Love it.

 

I love that story too.

[mfbukowski]

Quite possible!

You've never given a homeless person a hamburger?

Have you ever been kind to a total stranger?

Ever helped an elderly person with their lawn?

Never bought one of your kid's friends an ice cream cone?

For human beings, I would agree - in most cases.

For God Almighty, this gift is given from and by His Grace. Alone - and has nothing to do with us earning it.

Absolutely none!

I am a weak, broken, sinning, mortal creation.

I think you're avoiding the question.

As a Mormon, there are things that you must do to be saved (live with God for eternity)

You must earn this - and I'm simply suggesting to you that you can't earn such a thing. The sooner you stop trying, you can take a huge breathe, be at peace, at find enormous comfort in The One that provides said peace and comfort.

Amen, Brother!

So are things like compassion, humility, humbleness, kindness (It's what the Lord taught to us and exampled to us all over the NT. The Good News!)

It's not paramount in keeping commandments (None of us keep them, friend.)

It's paramount in how we try to follow him (even as we continue to fail.) It is His Love that we try to follow. His Love that we try (often struggle) to extend to others.

And when we fail to do all these things that he commanded us to do, then what?

If you find it terribly unreflective, then perhaps you should keep running, and running, and running.

But I still encourage you to at least consider a calm and peaceful jog - with random stops along the way to rest, reflect, pause, consider, and smell the roses.

Who?

Definitely under the influence of Kirk Cameron who I debated once, though he will not remember. It was a street encounter many years ago at a court house. I guess he needed to find some sinners.

[mfbukowski]

Hi mfb!

Is there an unintended pun in there somewhere?

None of my puns are unintended.

[stemelbow]

In the bible, the Savior talks about the 'pearl of great price' which the man had to give up everything in order to obtain.  It's my favorite parable because it teaches two things-

 

First, God really does require us to give up everything to get what He is offering, and that is a huge a test of faith-one that lasts our whole lives.  Once we realize and accept that, i think we do much better.

 

Second, Because of the Atonement of Christ, our 'all', whatever that is (and it's different for each of us) is truly and completely enough to gain the pearl.

I want to give up everything pack up my bags and move to the poorest most destitute place on this planet to mingle with the people there. But every time I get the wheels in motion to do it my wife puts a stop to it by telling me the kids need the structure here, the education, and she needs the love of her family or something. So how can we re-apply this parable? I'm giving up my desires in favor of what my wife wants. I want my kid's to see it all and travel with the "lowly" so they learn all the more. She wants them to take the IB classes and rub elbows with the rich of the world. Ah well, we love each other.

[mfbukowski]

I want to give up everything pack up my bags and move to the poorest most destitute place on this planet to mingle with the people there. But every time I get the wheels in motion to do it my wife puts a stop to it by telling me the kids need the structure here, the education, and she needs the love of her family or something. So how can we re-apply this parable? I'm giving up my desires in favor of what my wife wants. I want my kid's to see it all and travel with the "lowly" so they learn all the more. She wants them to take the IB classes and rub elbows with the rich of the world. Ah well, we love each other.

So volunteer at the soup kitchen with your kids or create service projects locally to help the homeless and involve your kids. You can do both.

My stake includes some extremely poor areas of LA and some very high middle class areas (million dollar plus homes)so we "get to" see a lot of both sides of that coin. I have learned a lot through service on both sides

Edited July 14, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

thank you!

 

I will, if you are sue you do not mind.

I don't mind. I will be posting here less and less I think so PM is fine.

[Mystery Meat]

Maybe it was more that the adversary did not want to lose a servant than the Lord wanted to make the test hard.

His burden is easy.

 

I don't disagree, but I believe it was the Lord's doing cuz I don't think Satan has the power or control capable of orchestrating the types of things that were happening. I think he would like to believe he does but he doesn't.

 

But even still, if you are right the Lord could have lightened my burden during those few month. He didn't. I prayed and prayed that he would. He wanted it to be hard.

[Calm]

I don't like to use the phrase "the Lord tests us" because for some it implies a lack of knowledge for the Lord, but "test" does work on a couple of levels...one has been referred to already. We are tested like metal is tested which makes it stronger in the process (and if we shatter,the Lord can assemble the pieces and begin again until we don't if we are willing). And we test ourselves so we learn where our limits are, what is important to ourselves, if we are willing to accept God's gifts or only find value in our own achievements. In many ways we are presented with a magnificent buffet and told we can load up our trays with whatever dishes we want but we have to eat as we go along but that dishes further ahead are not only much more nutritious but delicious as well so if we choose wisely and patiently only the choicest foods among the first offerings we will have plenty of room for the delicacies later nor will we have ruined our palate with overly sweet, rich or spicy foods earlier so we will be able to fully appreciate the best for what it truly is. In this test our patience and ability to control our cravings, to put off immediate gratification for true nourishment later is developed and strengthened.

I prefer a school analogy that has tests as part of the curriculum but they aren't the only thing going on or what matters. Earth is a school where God allows the students to choose some of their subjects among the core classes, to choose their tutors for themselves even if they are horrible ones, to repeat grades and tests until they want to move on to the next level and allows them to settle for just learning the basics to graduate from elementary where one learns how to get along with others in order to get what one wants, to secondary where we learn how to begin to love others as much as we think about ourselves and to act on that love to college where we learn to love God as our creator and Father and to act out of the core of that love to grad school where God invites us to share all that he has through a total acceptance of his love of us expressed through the Atonement and our being willing to give all of ourselves in return, neither holding anything back, allowing for becoming truly one.

I ask myself when something is hard (and not all hard things are good things, I think that can be a trap we fall into...thinking struggle adds value to the goal when it doesn't always) what is it I really want and what does that mean about the type of person I currently am and do I want to be that way forever or not. And that includes do I want to be a person who lives by faith in ______ (fill in whatever here) or not.

[bluebell]

I want to give up everything pack up my bags and move to the poorest most destitute place on this planet to mingle with the people there. But every time I get the wheels in motion to do it my wife puts a stop to it by telling me the kids need the structure here, the education, and she needs the love of her family or something. So how can we re-apply this parable? I'm giving up my desires in favor of what my wife wants. I want my kid's to see it all and travel with the "lowly" so they learn all the more. She wants them to take the IB classes and rub elbows with the rich of the world. Ah well, we love each other.

 

I don't necessarily believe that when the Lord wants our everything, He means all of our earthly possessions.  I think it means He wants our free will-our agency.  He wants all our sins, all our weaknesses.

 

Maybe that entails purposefully adding ourselves to the destitute of the world and maybe it doesn't-as i said before everyone's path seems to be different.  But i tend to think that what the already destitute people of the world need the least is more destitute people hanging out with them.  I think good honest people with resources could do a lot more good.  

[stemelbow]

I don't necessarily believe that when the Lord wants our everything, He means all of our earthly possessions.  I think it means He wants our free will-our agency.  He wants all our sins, all our weaknesses.

 

Maybe that entails purposefully adding ourselves to the destitute of the world and maybe it doesn't-as i said before everyone's path seems to be different.  But i tend to think that what the already destitute people of the world need the least is more destitute people hanging out with them.  I think good honest people with resources could do a lot more good.  

What good? It seems to me the people with resources tend to get richer while the poorer get poorer. I ain't worth any more than the next person. I'm just some fool who happened to be placed in circumstances privilege me in a temporal way. But as LDS I'm also taught I somehow happened to be placed in circumstances to privilege me spiritually/eternally as well. I hate this feeling. I want to shed myself of it and be the lowest of the low. If people don't want me hanging with them just tell me. Them danged Mormons send me that message plenty. But I can't escape. You kidding me?

[stemelbow]

So volunteer at the soup kitchen with your kids or create service projects locally to help the homeless and involve your kids. You can do both.

There are plenty of people in the world without the resources of service projects and soup kitchens occasioned by the guilty rich to help them feel better about themselves.

My stake includes some extremely poor areas of LA and some very high middle class areas (million dollar plus homes)so we "get to" see a lot of both sides of that coin. I have learned a lot through service on both sides

your stake eats it.(-;

[Calm]

I see two ways significant changes are made in poor people's lives...that is through education (but it has to work with their current attitudes as otherwise people often revert to old ways as better even when demonstrated otherwise such as new irrigation techniques) which may come from those who choose to live in the same conditions and those who provide the resources so that the poor can lift themselves up. Many of these in the latter category are very rich and need to stay very rich, in control of and making lots of money so they can continue to provide the resources to lift others. Doesn't mean they need to live luxurious lives of course.

For example: http://marriottschool.byu.edu/advisoryboard/detail.cfm?mem=1174&group=3

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_for_Creating_Enterprise

Edited July 14, 2014 by calmoriah

[name]

Deleted!

Edited July 14, 2014 by name

[name]

Deleted!

Upon reflection, not very kind of me.

Sorry!

Edited July 14, 2014 by name

[Ahab]

I don't believe God tests our faith. It's more like he has put us in a situation where our faith can be tested. He freely gives faith to anyone who will ask him.

[VideoGameJunkie]

My tests in life are my Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, anxiety, and depression, so my mental conditions. It's hard to always have faith, but I hope it will all work out in the end.

[stemelbow]

My tests in life are my Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, anxiety, and depression, so my mental conditions. It's hard to always have faith, but I hope it will all work out in the end.

 

if that's all you got then you have it easy. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Oh I have plenty more problems. But those are the main causes of why I struggle.

[bluebell]

if that's all you got then you have it easy. 

 

I have my fair share of trials, but i would not want to trade VGJ his.  I have family members with mental health struggles and it is one of the least 'easy' things to deal with.  

 

Carry on VGJ!  You are doing awesome.