Paul's warning about false apostles

[theplains]

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

[Tacenda]

38 minutes ago, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

I always thought if they prophesy something and it doesn't come true than you know. 

[MustardSeed]

I’ll give you my interpretation of what false prophet is. In my opinion, and for my purposes, the false prophet is anyone who claims to have “The Truth“ (about anything )and goes about gathering followers, and in the process makes a lot of money. Their word cannot be trusted because it is a source of wealth for them. They tend to be grossly popular, self-absorbed, THEATRICAL, histrionic, and convincing to masses. followers hang on every word.You can’t miss them really - although apparently you can because they gather a lot of sheep. 

[MustardSeed]

I am also a discerning general conference listener. I am not one hanging on every word and repeating popular phrases like “tender mercies” etc... it’s always troubling to me that within seconds, after a popular GA says something poetic, it is immediately turned into a meme, and no doubt sold on Etsy, and at Deseret book. I believe very much in taking anything that has heard, sitting with it, praying about it, studying it, before using it to implement change in one’s life.

all of this is of course my opinion, including the specific identification of people I would consider to be false prophets.

Edited June 26, 2023 by MustardSeed

[LoudmouthMormon]

The last LDS-related ones I noticed, were about a decade or two ago.  The "callout" crowd - prepper-ish folks who woke up believing that one Sunday they'd show up at church, and the bishop would read a letter from the first presidency that ordered all Saints of Zion to pull up their stakes, load everything into their campers and trucks, and go gather somewhere in the Rocky mountains to ride "it" out.

What was his name?  Ah yes - Christopher Nemelka.  Dude was thought of as almost a reincarnated Hyrum Smith, and he had produced a no-later-than date for this callout.  The date passed, and he produced another one.  Then a third.  Pretty quickly, all his passionate zealous prepper followers sort of went to other message boards and most of 'em got less nutty.

Looks like he's still out there:  https://christophernemelka.com/

Quote

I was chosen to be a True Messenger for the Real Illuminati^®—a group of highly intelligent (illuminated) mortals whose sole purpose is to help the human race save itself from complete destruction.

I no longer have any interest in or responsibility for continuing to warn the people of this world about what is soon to happen upon this earth.

It must be hard to be a false prophet.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

Sure, there are those who mock the servants of the Lord for things that don’t matter (in Paul’s case it was his appearance, speech, hardships, funding, etc.). The matter of preaching for money alludes to the priestcraft, “another Christ… spirit… and gospel,” boasted by the false apostles, and is the thrust of Paul’s criticism in this passage. So, we recognize priestcraft when someone undermines the Lord's apostles, personally and in doctrine, for money.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

For our present day, yes:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

"The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a movement which seeks to establish a fifth branch within Christendom distinct from Catholicism, Protestantism (which includes classical forms of Pentecostalism, the Charismatic movement, and Evangelicalism), Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy. The movement largely consists of churches nominally or formerly associated with Pentecostal denominations and Charismatic movements but have diverged from traditional or classical Pentecostal and Charismatic theology in that it advocates for the restoration of the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of prophet and apostle."

It also shows these bullet points:

• Apostolic governance – Using the Apostle Paul as an example to say that Jesus appoints apostles within his church up to this day.
• The office of the prophet – Saying there is within the church a role and function for present-day "prophets".

It seems pretty obvious on how to recognize them, the organization originated by men trying to reconstruct what God describes in the Bible rather than God setting up his church through divine means.

Edited June 26, 2023 by InCognitus

[juliann]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

Scholars have not been able to figure out what Paul was referring to. There is a possibility Paul just didn't like what these guys were doing. Not that they were actually not apostles, or whatever he meant by using that term. The most I can make out of it is that he saw them as competitors, which isn't about their actual status. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

The last LDS-related ones I noticed, were about a decade or two ago.  The "callout" crowd - prepper-ish folks who woke up believing that one Sunday they'd show up at church, and the bishop would read a letter from the first presidency that ordered all Saints of Zion to pull up their stakes, load everything into their campers and trucks, and go gather somewhere in the Rocky mountains to ride "it" out.

What was his name?  Ah yes - Christopher Nemelka.  Dude was thought of as almost a reincarnated Hyrum Smith, and he had produced a no-later-than date for this callout.  The date passed, and he produced another one.  Then a third.  Pretty quickly, all his passionate zealous prepper followers sort of went to other message boards and most of 'em got less nutty.

Looks like he's still out there:  https://christophernemelka.com/

It must be hard to be a false prophet.

Nemelka was prepper?  Are you sure?  He was never that big by the way.  He did write some “scripture”.  
 

LDS ones would be Julie Rowe, Roger Young who started the whole callout craze, Denver Snuffer with the Remnant groups, Daybell and his group of course, some of the AVOW group, I think Hector Sosa and likely Shawn Littlebear from what I have heard about them, but I haven’t read enough to be sure.  Rod Meldrum comes close imo, he falls into the priestcraft line as he really pushed the ‘I was approved by God’ kind of stuff with his solicitations of donations.  He talked about he was given a blessing by a former Seventy which led to revelations etc that need money to fulfill.  I don’t know if he still does that stuff or he cleaned up his act.  The whole digging up Zarahemla group gets right up to the edge, but I think if they are just promoting an idea and products (sacred essential oil of plants planted by Nephites in preparation for Covid that were miraculously found and preserved more or less…it is actually a very common variant of bee balm iirc)and not necessarily a person, so more priestcraft than false prophet.

[Kevin Christensen]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:53 AM, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

I've located around 28 tests for True and False Prophets in the Bible.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

Alas the first page of the FAIR essay is broken at the moment, which makes it harder to navigate and use, but most of the content is there.  I can provide the original pdf, if someone at FAIR wants to fix the missing page.  (I did try, a month or so ago, to complain of the broken page through the FAIR site contact method.)

When Jesus says of true and false prophets, "By their fruits shall ye know them" that is not an invitation to let matters of personal taste rule, but rather to consider objectively defining characteristics of the fruit we seek.  A perfect thorn is not a fig, and even a bruised or bird pecked fig still had to have come from a fig tree.  Even a fallen grape is not a thistle, and the most spectacular thistle did not come from a grape vine.

A few points to note:  the best known test, the one regarding unfulfilled prophecy is the one most qualified by precept and example, and also the one most abused in scripture.  It is not "THE TEST" but rather "a test" that comes with a great many warning labels and caveats.  Secondly, in comparing around 70 accounts in of Biblical people rejecting Bible prophets, it turns out that all of the arguments against turn out to boil down to people saying, "It's not what I think, and/or, it's not what I want."  That advantage of testing prophets against your own preconceptions and desires, rather than against 28 objective tests is that it is much easier to get an answer you want, even if that answer does not happen to be correct by Biblical standards.  For example, "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him" presumes that one's current favored authorities would approve.  Or, similarly, "This is a hard saying. who can hear it?" as a response to the Bread of Life sermon.  Setting up stakes on preconceptions is the opposite of having a contrite spirit.  And the rich young man not being willing to sacrifice his wealth, or anyone else just finding repentance being a bit much.   That is, giving up his wealth, or for anyone else, giving up some other sin or desire would be to heart breaking.  Hence, 3 Nephi has Jesus calling for the sacrifice of a broken heart, and a contrite spirit, that is, being willing to offer up our desires and preconceptions, is a beginning point. And it turns out that the Bible recommendations for seeing truth amount to a formal process for offering up our preconceptions and desires. to make the sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit, to let go what we think and want in order to enter the Real.  

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Seeing_the_truth

And it just so happens that if tested against these 28 Biblical tests, Joseph Smith comes out looking like a viable candidate.  None of his critics have taken this particular set of tests to heart.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Considering_Joseph_Smith/Preliminary_test

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited June 29, 2023 by Kevin Christensen

[Saint Bonaventure]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Nemelka was prepper?  Are you sure?  He was never that big by the way.  He did write some “scripture”.  
 

LDS ones would be Julie Rowe, Roger Young who started the whole callout craze, Denver Snuffer with the Remnant groups, Daybell and his group of course, some of the AVOW group, I think Hector Sosa and likely Shawn Littlebear from what I have heard about them, but I haven’t read enough to be sure.  Rod Meldrum comes close imo, he falls into the priestcraft line as he really pushed the ‘I was approved by God’ kind of stuff with his solicitations of donations.  He talked about he was given a blessing by a former Seventy which led to revelations etc that need money to fulfill.  I don’t know if he still does that stuff or he cleaned up his act.  The whole digging up Zarahemla group gets right up to the edge, but I think if they are just promoting an idea and products (sacred essential oil of plants planted by Nephites in preparation for Covid that were miraculously found and preserved more or less…it is actually a very common variant of bee balm iirc)and not necessarily a person, so more priestcraft than false prophet.

Please forgive my cluelessness, but what is the "callout craze?"

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I am not one hanging on every word and repeating popular phrases like “tender mercies” etc... it’s always troubling to me that within seconds, after a popular GA says something poetic, it is immediately turned into a meme, and no doubt sold on Etsy, and at Deseret book. I believe very much in taking anything that has heard, sitting with it, praying about it, studying it, before using it to implement change in one’s life.

Hmm...something to ponderize to be sure.

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Nemelka was prepper?  Are you sure?  He was never that big by the way.  He did write some “scripture”.  
 

LDS ones would be Julie Rowe, Roger Young who started the whole callout craze, Denver Snuffer with the Remnant groups, Daybell and his group of course, some of the AVOW group, I think Hector Sosa and likely Shawn Littlebear from what I have heard about them, but I haven’t read enough to be sure.

Yep - you're correct.  Roger K Young was the callout 'prophet' I was thinking about, the one who kept spitting dates that passed.   

 

1 hour ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Please forgive my cluelessness, but what is the "callout craze?"

For a while there, there was a fascinating little subsection of saints who were quite gung-ho about the impending "callout".   It reads like fiction, but there were lots and lots of folks who believed this stuff.  There was so much written and said about it, that ChatGPT was able to do it justice when I asked it to write the letter announcing the callout that would be read in Sacrament meeting: 

Quote

Dear Beloved Saints,

With great joy and anticipation, we write to you today as the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, guided by divine inspiration and revelation. We recognize the faith and dedication that reside within each of your hearts, as we are all united in our commitment to follow the Savior's teachings and build His kingdom here on earth.

Today, we bring you a significant message that pertains to the unfolding of God's plan for His children. We solemnly declare that the time of preparation is upon us, and the call has been made for all faithful saints to embark on a sacred journey towards the Rocky Mountains.

The Lord, in His infinite wisdom, has deemed it necessary for His chosen people to gather in a place of refuge, where we can await the glorious advent of the Millennium. This callout, issued under His divine direction, is an invitation for each of us to demonstrate our unwavering faith and commitment to His cause.

In obedience to this sacred call, we ask that each faithful saint prayerfully consider the following instructions:

1- Immediate Liquidation of Possessions: In order to fully consecrate ourselves to this sacred gathering, we are called to sell our earthly possessions. The resources gained through these sales should be used to support ourselves and our families during this preparatory period.

2- Simplified Living Arrangements: As we journey towards the Rocky Mountains, we must embrace simplicity and humility. We encourage you to arrange for temporary housing and make necessary preparations to ensure a smooth transition during this sacred journey.

3- Family Unity: We emphasize the importance of keeping families together during this time. Each family unit should make their own preparations to gather and journey towards the designated meeting places.

4- Faithful Stewardship: As we leave behind our former lives, it is crucial that we remain steadfast in our commitment to living the principles of the gospel. We encourage you to strengthen one another, seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and be vigilant in upholding the covenants we have made.

5- Service and Compassion: Let us remember that our callout is not simply a personal journey but an opportunity to serve our fellow saints. Reach out in love and unity, extending a helping hand to those in need along the way.

We understand that this callout may require great sacrifice, both in material possessions and personal comfort. However, we assure you that the blessings promised by our Heavenly Father far surpass any temporal concerns. As we gather in unity, we will be prepared to welcome the Savior's Second Coming and partake in the blessings of the long-awaited Millennium.

Further instructions and logistical details will be provided through local Church leaders and official channels. We encourage you to seek guidance from your local priesthood leaders and find strength in one another as we embark on this sacred journey together.

May the Lord bless you abundantly as you respond to this callout with faith, trust, and unwavering devotion. Let us prepare our hearts, minds, and spirits for the glorious future that awaits us in the Rocky Mountains.

With deepest love and gratitude for your faithfulness,

[First Presidency Signatures]

President
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

 

There were message boards almost as big as mormondialogue full of people thinking this way.  Subforums where people talked argued RV or camper or tent.   Or they argued "captains of 10" vs "captains of 50".  The number of people who actually began preps in advance of the callout, selling their homes and whatnot, was greater than zero.     It was amazing.

Edited June 26, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Couganova]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’ll give you my interpretation of what false prophet is. In my opinion, and for my purposes, the false prophet is anyone who claims to have “The Truth“ (about anything )and goes about gathering followers, and in the process makes a lot of money. Their word cannot be trusted because it is a source of wealth for them. They tend to be grossly popular, self-absorbed, THEATRICAL, histrionic, and convincing to masses. followers hang on every word.You can’t miss them really - although apparently you can because they gather a lot of sheep. 
 

y u gotta mess with Joel Osteen and Oprah?

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yep - you're correct.  Roger K Young was the callout 'prophet' I was thinking about, the one who kept spitting dates that passed.   

 

For a while there, there was a fascinating little subsection of saints who were quite gung-ho about the impending "callout".   It reads like fiction, but there were lots and lots of folks who believed this stuff.  There was so much written and said about it, that ChatGPT was able to do it justice when I asked it to write the letter announcing the callout that would be read in Sacrament meeting: 

 

There were message boards almost as big as mormondialogue full of people thinking this way.  Subforums where people talked argued RV or camper or tent.   Or they argued "captains of 10" vs "captains of 50".  The number of people who actually began preps in advance of the callout, selling their homes and whatnot, was greater than zero.     It was amazing.

We had a neighboring stake that went a bit crazy with it.  They had members living in their backyards in tents "practicing" for the day.  Our good friends' parents (they lived in the same ward) bought them giant canvas tents and other camping gear for Christmas in 2014 so that they would be ready to go when the call came.

[Damien the Leper]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Scholars have not been able to figure out what Paul was referring to. There is a possibility Paul just didn't like what these guys were doing. Not that they were actually not apostles, or whatever he meant by using that term. The most I can make out of it is that he saw them as competitors, which isn't about their actual status. 

I took a NT class a long time ago and we referred to these people, albeit critically and sarcastically, as the Super Apostles.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I am also a discerning general conference listener. I am not one hanging on every word and repeating popular phrases like “tender mercies” etc... it’s always troubling to me that within seconds, after a popular GA says something poetic, it is immediately turned into a meme, and no doubt sold on Etsy, and at Deseret book. I believe very much in taking anything that has heard, sitting with it, praying about it, studying it, before using it to implement change in one’s life.

all of this is of course my opinion, including the specific identification of people I would consider to be false prophets.

One which keeps coming up recently for some reason, and which I find very difficult to stomach is the bastardization of Elder Holland’s 2012 talk, The First Great Commandment (churchofjesuschrist.org).

Despite Elder Holland acknowledging his “nonscriptural elaboration” for the sake of making a higher and holier point, they ignore the actual point of the talk, or even acknowledging the good in, “I don’t know more to tell you than to return to your former life, rejoicing,” it’s all about – with derision of their foolishness -- , they cite “I intend to ‘go a fishing.’” To highlight their blundering ways without the guidance of the Spirit, and as if they don’t do the same thing when, every Monday morning after supping at the Lord’s table the Sabbath before, they return to work, ostensibly living the gospel in their day jobs.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Couganova said:

y u gotta mess with Joel Osteen and Oprah?

I can continue to add but I’ll become less and less popular. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

las the first page of the FAIR essay is broken at the moment, which makes it harder to navigate and use, but most of the content is there.  I can provide the original pdf, if someone at FAIR wants to fix the missing page.  (I did try, a month or so ago, to complain of the broken page through the FAIR site contact method.)

I can pass on to the person who fixes it, Kevin, is it just formatting or something else? And is it the essay itself or the links?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yep - you're correct.  Roger K Young was the callout 'prophet' I was thinking about, the one who kept spitting dates that passed.   

 

For a while there, there was a fascinating little subsection of saints who were quite gung-ho about the impending "callout".   It reads like fiction, but there were lots and lots of folks who believed this stuff.  There was so much written and said about it, that ChatGPT was able to do it justice when I asked it to write the letter announcing the callout that would be read in Sacrament meeting: 

 

There were message boards almost as big as mormondialogue full of people thinking this way.  Subforums where people talked argued RV or camper or tent.   Or they argued "captains of 10" vs "captains of 50".  The number of people who actually began preps in advance of the callout, selling their homes and whatnot, was greater than zero.     It was amazing.

Unfortunately it is still going as the same group is having conferences with most of the same people under a different company name, though with the excommunication of its biggest prophet, Julie Rowe, and another two prominent leaders turning out to be spouse and child murderers and adulterers (the Daybells), it has gone more underground. And hopefully lost the huge appeal it had for awhile (the books promoting it were the number one book in the Mormon market for a few years, made me a bit ill whenever I saw how so many Saints were attracted to that new age/spiritualist/sci fic/fantasy/a dollop of scripture nonsense, it seems a good percentage of them went off into apostasy even if they didn’t fixate on one of the hedge prophets of the AVOW message boards groups).  People are so eager to know the “cool stuff” they will swallow almost anything sometimes. 

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

The existence of false apostles necessitates the existence of true apostles. At the time Paul penned these words, he was a living apostle who was warning the living members of the apostolic Church of Christ to not allow themselves to be beguiled by false apostles. But since non-LDS Christians no longer believe there are living apostles — even though in 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 Paul makes it perfectly clear that the true Church of Christ cannot exist without them — one cannot help but wonder how Paul’s warning could have any current application for them? After all, if there is no longer any need for living apostles, that can only mean anyone claiming to be a true apostle can simply be rejected out of hand without any need for reason, discernment or divine inspiration. It’s simple, for nonLDS Christians anyone claiming to be a true apostle of Christ is a false apostle. This means that for non-LDS Christmas Paul’s warning is a relic of a bygone era that has no current application in the real world.
 

Edited June 26, 2023 by teddyaware

[Calm]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Roger K Young was the callout 'prophet' I was thinking about, the one who kept spitting dates that passed. 

He jumped onto Y2K bug disaster, but I am sorry to be so nitpicky, I think you are thinking of Julie Rowe…unless you hung out in places earlier than I did. I don’t remember anyone but Rowe being precise enough to come up with dates, which was imo both her appeal and her downfall. The others were vague and made allowances for not being pinned down so they would be right if sometime soon or later in a couple of decades, while Rowe said within 5 years at first due to the way her husband and the family car looked in her visions and she went so precise as in a week or two or next blood moon; when her prediction failed, her blog would go silent and then she would say she never made those claims, only others)….

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, InCognitus said:

For our present day, yes:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation

"The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is a movement which seeks to establish a fifth branch within Christendom distinct from Catholicism, Protestantism (which includes classical forms of Pentecostalism, the Charismatic movement, and Evangelicalism), Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Orthodoxy. The movement largely consists of churches nominally or formerly associated with Pentecostal denominations and Charismatic movements but have diverged from traditional or classical Pentecostal and Charismatic theology in that it advocates for the restoration of the lost offices of church governance, namely the offices of prophet and apostle."

It also shows these bullet points:

• Apostolic governance – Using the Apostle Paul as an example to say that Jesus appoints apostles within his church up to this day.
• The office of the prophet – Saying there is within the church a role and function for present-day "prophets".

It seems pretty obvious on how to recognize them, the organization originated by men trying to reconstruct what God describes in the Bible rather than God setting up his church through divine means.

Ironic, isn't it. All they have to do is call a missionary. 

Edited to add : when we first discovered the Church and the BoM etc I pictured entire congregations joining the Church of Jesus Christ LDS, I was pretty naive. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by rodheadlee

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

It was literally fulfilled in Revelation, where John was told that there were false apostles in one city that the "angel" of the city tried and found false. How did he do it? We're not told.

Note that there is no reason to warn of false apostles, if there are to be no more apostles at all. Paul could have explained that the time of the Apostles was over, and that there would be no more apostles. But he never did, nor was there any indication in the New Testament that the Apostolic office itself, a la Muhammed's prophethood, was to be sunsetted. 

What does an apostle do? Testify of Jesus, that He is the Messiah, the Anointed One, and the Redeemer. Of course, many people of all Christian faiths testify of this. But not all are Apostles, because apparently this is a special calling with special requirements. When Matthias was chosen to replace Judas, one of the qualifications was that he could personally testify as to Jesus's resurrection. Later there was Paul, who had evidently not been present at any event involving Jesus during Jesus's lifetime, but who nevertheless could testify as to Jesus being the Christ due to his vision on the road to Damascus. 

Wikipedia has an interesting article about the word "Apostle" and what it means in many different contexts, including religious ones. The problem with recognizing apostles as false or true is that one must first know in what sense they are claiming to be, or are being claimed as apostles. The meaning of the word apostle lends itself to many possible uses.

From Wikipedia: "An apostle (/əˈpɒsəl/), in its literal sense, is an emissary, from Ancient Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), literally "one who is sent off", from the verb ἀποστέλλειν (apostéllein), "to send off". The purpose of such sending off is usually to convey a message, and thus "messenger" is a common alternative translation; other common translations include "ambassador" and "envoy". The term in Ancient Greek also has other related meanings."

It is thus clear that Mohammed could be called an apostle, and I think Muslims do regard him as such, since he was sent forth to proclaim Allah. How would you prove him and discover him to be a false apostle? Impossible, since it would require either proving or disproving Allah as a god. Good luck with that, and you better pack a lunch, because you'll be at it all day.

I imagine that you're trying to find a way to show us poor, deluded Latter-day Saints are following false apostles. What are YOUR points of recognition?

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

There were message boards almost as big as mormondialogue full of people thinking this way.  Subforums where people talked argued RV or camper or tent.   Or they argued "captains of 10" vs "captains of 50".  The number of people who actually began preps in advance of the callout, selling their homes and whatnot, was greater than zero.     It was amazing.

AVOW message boards made a ton of money for its owners (not free) and was massive, I understand. I never visited it.  Roger Young got it going and then gave/sold it to Christopher Parratt (sp?) when he retired.  Parratt provided a nurturing place for a lot of hedge prophets including Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe.  LDS Freedomforums had a lot of it, pro and con (free).  Julie Rowe made a few appearances, but she got called out for her lies and plagiarisms, so didn’t stick around there long.  That is where I got most of my info besides searching Rowe’s own blog and newspapers and the conference sites as well as forcing myself to read Visions of Glory, which is the book by John Pontius and “Spencer” that really got the ball rolling for Rowe and Daybell. I believe Chad Daybell saw how successful they were and latched on to Julie Rowe (who was spreading her evolving NDE/visions on AVOW) as his money maker, worked as her editor so he could tailor her visions to the audience and then he started pushing that his own apocalyptic fiction books were actually the real thing that he had seen in visions himself after he started to go wonky. And of course he ended up moving to Rexburg area to find more of the people who would listen to him so he could be a Big Man (Utah Valley wasn’t radical enough for him).  Even forced his older kids to join him to go with him with threats of demonic possession so he wouldn’t lose any of his emotional and maybe financial support (his line was he couldn’t protect them if they lived far away in demon filled Utah Valley).  Once there he was pulling people aside and telling them they were special and would be leaders, if they were women, that he was married to them in a previous life, etc…but appeared to be willing to instantly drop the whole game once he got his dream girl and some cash (by killing his wife and his lover’s kids). 
 

As perfect of a picture of a false prophet one could want.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Calm