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Paul's warning about false apostles


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Posted
16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also lol at the idea of North Korea or Russia or even China having the logistical framework to invade the United States.

Haven’t you seen Red Dawn? Don’t underestimate Cuba, man. 

Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2023 at 12:01 PM, theplains said:

How do we know they are a false restoration/reformation movement when they claim they
have the true Apostleship?

I provided the answer to this earlier in the thread here:

From Walter Bauer's: A Greek Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, p. 891, this is the definition of a false apostle:

"ψευδαπόστολος, ου, ό  false apostle.  i.e. one who represents himself to be an apostle without the divine commission necessary for the office (cf. Polyaenus 5, 33, 6 ψευδάγγελοι = false messengers) 2 Cor 11:13.-- Cf. lit. s.v. ψευδόμαρτυς. *"

A true apostle would have the divine commission from Jesus Christ, either directly (as in the original twelve) or through divine revelation (as in the case of the apostle Paul and Barnabas - as in Acts 13:1-3), or as appointed by revelation either directly by Jesus (as to Joseph Smith) or by revelation for the appointment of the twelve (the same way it was done in New Testament times after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus).

On 7/3/2023 at 12:19 PM, theplains said:

There are three Greek words in question here (I'm going to color code these and include the Strongs numbers throughout my post for better clarity because the words look similar):

ἀπόστολος, apóstolos ; g652
 From    ἀποστέλλω {g649}
 Mean    a delegate specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ [“apostle”] (with miraculous powers)
 KJV    apostle, messenger, he that is sent
 TGL (PDF)    68
 TGL (IMG)    68
(Α ἀπόστολος–ἀπόστολος TGL (IMG))

ἀποστολή, apostolḗ ; g651
 From    ἀποστέλλω {g649}
 Mean    commission, i.e., (specifically) apostolate
 KJV    apostleship
 TGL (PDF)    68
 TGL (IMG)    68
(Α ἀποστολή–ἀποστολή TGL (IMG))

ἀποστέλλω, apostéllō ; g649
 From    ἀπό {g575} and στέλλω {g4724}
 Mean    set apart, i.e., (by implication) to send out (properly on a mission) literally or figuratively
 KJV    put in, send (away, forth, out), set [at liberty]
 TGL (PDF)    67
 TGL (IMG)    67
(Α ἀποστέλλω–ἀποστέλλω TGL (IMG))

Only the first two words listed above, apostolos, (g652) and apostole, (g651) are used in application to the apostles of Jesus Christ that were appointed offices in his church.  And even though both words are derived from the third word, apostello (g649), the latter word doesn't convey the same meaning as the appointed church office.  The latter word apostello (g649) merely means to set apart and send out, and it isn't special in the sense of having divine appointment, because it is used in verses like:

Matthew 2:16  "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth [apostello (g649)], and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem".

Matthew 14:35  "And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out [apostello (g649)] into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased".

But the same word is also used by Jesus and religious leaders, like when it says he shall send forth [apostello (g649)] his angels (Matthew 13:41).  

So the latter word may or may not have any religious application.  

The article you referenced starts out by accurately identifying two of the Greek words [apostello - to send (g649), and apostolos - an apostle by appointment (g652)] by quoting from the Liddell and Scott lexicon.  The article recognizes the importance of Ephesians 4:11-14, where Paul says that the offices of prophets and apostles (apostolos, g652), and other offices are to continue until "all are in the unity of the faith", but in trying to make those verses apply to their own modern version of apostles (the apostello - g649) the two words are conflated and no longer distinguished in the various classifications. 

They list the following classifications:

  1. Jesus
  2. The Twelve
  3. Paul, the Apostle
  4. Other Apostles
  5. Every Disciple of Christ

What they don't explain is that #2 and #3 are the offices of apostle - apostolos, (g652), and for #4, only Paul, Barnabas, Andronicus, and Junia are specifically called by the offices of apostle - apostolos, (g652), but the others are not.  And for #1 (Jesus), they quote Luke 4:18 where Jesus is quoting Isaiah 61:1 and it says he was "sent" (apostello - g649) to proclaim freedom for the prisoners, which is using the common word for "sent".  And #5 is just using the common word for "sent" in application to the believers (apostello - g649).

The bottom line is that the common word for "sent" (apostello - g649) doesn't work as a replacement for the appointed apostles of Jesus Christ (apostolos - g652), and it is the latter word that is used in Ephesians 4:11-14. They are trying to make the common word for "sent" as a replacement of the divinely appointed apostolic office in the church.

And remember, Paul says not all in the church are apostles (apostolos g652 - 1 Corinthians 12:29).  Many others may be "sent" (apostello - g649 - including the people Herod sent out to kill the babies), but that's not the same thing as having the apostolic office.  

Edited by InCognitus
Posted (edited)
On 7/3/2023 at 2:13 PM, theplains said:

What of the apostles in the other branches of the LDS faith?  Why are they false?

It is much easier ask an open-ended question than to actually explore and apply the Biblical tests, but as with Robert Frost's two roads diverging in a wood, choosing the one less traveled by can make all the difference.

Quote

Particularly relevant to the question is one under Personal Character,which states, "Recognizes and is united with authorized prophets," which links to this:

Quote

Recognizes and is united with authorized prophets

Of True Of False

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us. He that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that it might be manifest they were not of us.

Note that this test presupposes a body of men who meet the test for true prophets. That is, this test depends on the others, and cannot be used prior to them.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

P.S.  The FAIR site still has not been updated to repair the broken first page of the study.

Edited by Kevin Christensen
typo
Posted
5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

 

P.S.  The FAIR site still has not been updated to repair the broken first page of the study.

I was waiting till after the holiday to nag him. I think he thought a link was broken. If you could pm me, I could give you his email so you can be sure he understands what is wrong. 

Posted
On 7/4/2023 at 6:26 PM, InCognitus said:

A true apostle would have the divine commission from Jesus Christ, either directly (as in the original twelve) or through divine revelation (as in the case of the apostle Paul and Barnabas - as in Acts 13:1-3), or as appointed by revelation either directly by Jesus (as to Joseph Smith) or by revelation for the appointment of the twelve (the same way it was done in New Testament times after the resurrection and ascension of Jesus).

And yet we have 15 apostles in the LDS church and none existed in the Nephite churches before
Jesus is said to have visited the New World.  Three in the LDS era, not one, were supposedly 
appointed to pick out the twelve.

Maybe we are both wrong and the only real apostles are found in the Community of Christ, the 
FLDS, or the New Apostolic Church (https://nak.org/en/)

Posted
1 minute ago, theplains said:

And yet we have 15 apostles in the LDS church and none existed in the Nephite churches before
Jesus is said to have visited the New World.  Three in the LDS era, not one, were supposedly 
appointed to pick out the twelve.

Another rerun.  See my answer above (this has been addressed).  It was the same way Christ's church functioned in the New Testament after the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

2 minutes ago, theplains said:

Maybe we are both wrong and the only real apostles are found in the Community of Christ, the 
FLDS, or the New Apostolic Church (https://nak.org/en/)

I addressed the claims of these movements above.

Posted
On 6/26/2023 at 10:53 AM, theplains said:

Have false apostles, mentioned by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, continued to exist up to
our present day?  If yes, how would we recognize them?

They are all false.  Past, present and in the future.  

Posted
6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

They are all false.  Past, present and in the future.  

Ah @rodheadleedid I hurt your feelings again?  Sorry but it is true.  They are all false.  You just pick the ones you like and reject the rest. I reject them all. So in some ways we are not that different.

Posted
4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ah @rodheadleedid I hurt your feelings again?  Sorry but it is true.  They are all false.  You just pick the ones you like and reject the rest. I reject them all. So in some ways we are not that different.

You didn't hurt my feelings. Your statement is too generalized for me and I disagree with it that's why voted it down. 

Posted
Just now, rodheadlee said:

You didn't hurt my feelings. Your statement is too generalized for me and I disagree with it that's why voted it down. 

Ok.  But as I note, you reject most so called prophets and apostles other than the one's you agree with. I just take it one step further and reject them all.  They are all pretenders and con men.

Posted
On 7/4/2023 at 6:47 AM, MiserereNobis said:

Haven’t you seen Red Dawn? Don’t underestimate Cuba, man. 

The United States loves to cast itself as David fighting Goliath.

They are Goliath. They also have a better helmet and are less likely to be one-shorted by some nebbish shepherd with a sling.

Posted
On 7/6/2023 at 1:04 PM, InCognitus said:

Another rerun.  See my answer above (this has been addressed).  It was the same way Christ's church functioned in the New Testament after the resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Yes, another rerun.
  
Alma 13 and Alma 46 speak of the many concurrent high priests who were ordained 
and who maintained order in the church.  But this is not the structure of the New 
Testament because Christ fulfilled the Law and became our high priest. Neither 
Peter or Paul are ever referred to as high priests.

Prior to Christ being born in Bethlehem, how did the Nephite churches (which had 
no apostles) function in the same way?

Posted
1 hour ago, theplains said:

Alma 13 and Alma 46 speak of the many concurrent high priests who were ordained 
and who maintained order in the church.  But this is not the structure of the New 
Testament because Christ fulfilled the Law and became our high priest. Neither 
Peter or Paul are ever referred to as high priests.

The book of Alma was written in Old Testament times prior to the coming of Christ and the New Covenant.  So why are you comparing that to the New Testament way of doing things?

The fact that Christ became our great High Priest doesn't mean that the office of high priest ceased to exist in the church, and nowhere in the New Testament does it say that Jesus is the only High Priest.  And priests clearly existed in the church after Christ (Revelation 1:6)

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Prior to Christ being born in Bethlehem, how did the Nephite churches (which had 
no apostles) function in the same way?

They didn't function in the same way, because they were under the law (see 2 Nephi 25:23-27).

Posted
On 7/10/2023 at 6:52 PM, InCognitus said:

The book of Alma was written in Old Testament times prior to the coming of Christ and the New Covenant.  So why are you comparing that to the New Testament way of doing things?

The fact that Christ became our great High Priest doesn't mean that the office of high priest ceased to exist in the church, and nowhere in the New Testament does it say that Jesus is the only High Priest.  And priests clearly existed in the church after Christ (Revelation 1:6)

They didn't function in the same way, because they were under the law (see 2 Nephi 25:23-27).

NIcely observed.  Also 

Margaret Barker observes that both John and James were high priests:

The Church preserved the world view of the temple, and two of the early leaders were described as high priests. James the brother of Jesus used to enter the holy place wearing linen garments and pray for the forgiveness of the people’s sins, which is immediately recognizable as the role of the high priest on the Day of Atonement. James was also called, ‘the Righteous One’, as was Jesus (Acts 3.14), and this had been a title of the ancient high priests. ‘Zadok’ meant ‘the righteous one’. This information about James was recorded in the early fourth century by Eusebius in his History of the Church, but he was quoting from Hegesippus ‘who belonged to the first generation after the apostles’. Epiphanius, writing later in the fourth century, also used Hegesippis and said that James wore the petalon, the golden plate worn by the high priest on his forehead, inscribed with the Name. John also had been a high priest, according to Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus at the end of the second century. When he wrote to Victor, bishop of Rome, he said that John was buried in Ephesus and he too had worn the petalon. Thus Hegesippus and Polycrates writing in the second century, were describing the great church leaders of the previous century as high priests.85

Barker’s work on the “Angel Priesthood” explores the role and symbolism of the high priests. And if we take knowledge of the roles and symbolism to our reading of the New Testament and the account in 3 Nephi, it becomes very clear that the functions and symbolism continues [Page 144]as an essential element and key to what occurs there. For instance, in The Great High Priest, Barker explains:

When he was anointed, the high priest was marked with the sign of the Name, described by the rabbis as a chi (b. Hirayoth 12a), but in the time of Ezekiel described as a tau (Ezek. 9.4) in each case, a diagonal cross. [Compare Jacob 4:14 on “the mark” and remember that Jacob is a consecrated temple priest contemporary with Ezekiel.]

This cross was to become the mark of Christian baptism, as can be seen from the references in the Book of Revelation, where the redeemed have the Name on their foreheads (Rev. 14.1), described elsewhere as the seal of the living God, which must be a reference to the ‘seal’ of the Name worn by the high priest (Rev. 7.3). All those thus marked become the priests, serving in the sanctuary with his Name on their foreheads, and seeing the Face (Rev. 22.4).86

Barker explains that “Jesus was depicted as the great high priest throughout his ministry, taking away sins and making the broken whole. He was living the great Day of Atonement, bringing the excluded back within the bond of the covenant. This duty extended to all the baptized; those who bore the name and had been renewed, had themselves to make others new.”87 That is, the role of the Christians is to carry on the work of the high priests. How can we do that without the high priesthood? As 1 Peter 2:5 says, “Ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Posted (edited)
On 7/10/2023 at 6:52 PM, InCognitus said:

The book of Alma was written in Old Testament times prior to the coming of Christ and the New Covenant.  So why are you comparing that to the New Testament way of doing things?

The fact that Christ became our great High Priest doesn't mean that the office of high priest ceased to exist in the church, and nowhere in the New Testament does it say that Jesus is the only High Priest.  And priests clearly existed in the church after Christ (Revelation 1:6)

There was only one high priest in the Old Testament system.  When he died, another 
assumed his role. Jesus, under the New Covenant, becomes our one and only permanent 
High Priest (Hebrews 9 and 10).  That is why the disciples never refer to themselves 
as additional high priests.

"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and 
dominion for ever and ever. Amen" (Revelation 1:6).

I see the wording is a little similar to Doctrine and Covenants 76:54-58.

"They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the 
Father has given all things—They are they who are priests and kings, who have received 
of his fulness, and of his glory; And are priests of the Most High, after the order of 
Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only 
Begotten Son. Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God.
"

By your reasoning (saying Revelation 1:6 is a reference to high priests), then women 
(goddesses) are considered high priests in the top division of the celestial kingdom.  
All men and women in all the other LDS-designated kingdoms are not high priests.
 

On 7/10/2023 at 6:52 PM, InCognitus said:

They didn't function in the same way, because they were under the law (see 2 Nephi 25:23-27).

It seems they were under both (they built churches, synagogues, and temples).

Jacob's brother Nephi said, "Notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of 
Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled" 
(2 Nephi 25:24). He said that the law had become dead to them because they were alive in 
Christ. But he told his people, "ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God 
until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses" (2 Nephi 25:30).

In the New Testament, the disciples believed in Christ but they did not continue to perform 
all the animal sacrifices and grain offerings in the Old Testament Law. As far as is 
recorded in the Bible, they never again participated in the temple ordinances (unlike their 
Nephite counterparts).  The New Testament Christians mentioned in the Bible never built 
temples wherever they went.

Then there are the churches that are said to have existed in the four hundred years after 
Jesus is said to have visited the Nephites post-resurrection.  They had no apostles and no 
group of seventy or quorums of seventies.  

I also notice that "high priest" or "high priests" is never again mentioned in the Book of 
Mormon after 3 Nephi 11, but they continued to build synagogues (3 Nephi 18:32; Moroni 7:1).
New Testament Christians did not build synagogues or temples. Neither did they perform any
saving ordinances in the temple.  Nor is there any mention of Book of Mormon "Christians"
performing ordinances in their temples post-resurrection. 

LDS temple ordinances appear to have originated with Freemasonry. This is from wikipedia.

Edited by theplains
Posted

Aside from bypassing Barker's work entirely, I notice that the Wikipedia essay on the relationship between Mormonism and Masonry and the Temple has this, after quoting Bushman on the topic.

Quote

However, these similarities are both few and superficial, being limited to pedagogical elements (how things are taught) instead of subject matter (what things are taught), context (in what light things are taught), or purposes (why things are taught); in addition, the context and purposes of the Church's temple endowment ceremony wholly differ from those of the degree ceremonies of Freemasonry

And I notice that the essay has nothing about the Book of Mormon, which, the past four decades have discovered, is permeated with temple themes and settings.  Nephi builds a temple, Jacob is consecrated as a temple priest, Benjamin's discourse takes place at the temple, Alma 12 and 13 have obvious connections to priesthood and temples, when Jesus comes in 3 Nephi, he comes to a temple.  What happens in these passages is centered on the temple, directly comparable to both ancient and modern temple ceremonies, and, notably, does not evoke any comment whatsoever in the Wikipedia article, and therefore, to my mind, casts considerable reason to doubt the fairly common meme that "LDS temple ordinances appear to have originated with Freemasonry."

For instance, regarding the Sermon on the Mount, John Welch observes this:

Quote

Table 2. The Sermon on the Mount Seen in Twenty-Five Stages of Ascent
Jesus and his disciples go up “into the Mountain” (5:1; compare Exodus 19:20; 24:13)
1: A promise of ultimate heavenly blessings is given (the Beatitudes, 5:3–12)
2: A charge is given, with a warning, to become the salt of the earth (5:13)
3: A calling is given to be a light unto the world to the glory of God (5:14–16)
4: Obligation imposed to obey and teach the fullness of the law and prophets (5:17–20)
5: Anger, ill-speaking, and ridicule of brothers are prohibited (5:21–22)
6: All animosities are reconciled before gifts are given at the altar (5:23–26)
7: Sexual fidelity is required before, during, and after marriage (5:27–32)
8: Oaths are sworn along this path only by saying “yes, yes” or “no, no” (5:33–37)
9: Disciples agree to do good and to pray for all people, including enemies (5:38–47)
10: Gifts of sun and rain upon all are promised as blessings from heaven (5:45)
11: Passing from that first level into a higher order of perfection (5:48)
12: Donations are given voluntarily and inconspicuously to the poor (6:1–4)
13: Prayers are offered without fanfare, both in private and as a group (6:5–13)
14: Forgiveness is given and is commensurately received (6:14–15)
15: Fasting, washing, and anointing are done in a secret setting (6:16–18)
16: Treasures are consecrated with singleness of heart in loving service to God (6:19–24)
17: Assurances of sufficient food, drink and glorious clothing are received (6:25–34)
18: In preparing for the final judgment, people judge themselves, not others (7:1–5)
19: A curse is placed on those who inappropriately disclose that which is holy (7:6)
20: A threefold petition is made: asking, seeking, and knocking (7:7–8)
21: Good gifts are received from the Father, and gifts are given as he gives (7:9–12)
22: The righteous enter through a narrow opening that leads into life (7:13–14)
23: They enjoy and bear the fruits of the tree of life, not of corruptness (7:15–20)
24: Doing God’s will, they are allowed to enter into his presence and kingdom (7:21–23)
25: They then build upon this rock by hearing and doing these things (7:24–27)
Based on John W. Welch, The Sermon on the Mount in the Light of the Temple (London: Ashgate, 2009), 41–182. 

http://www.templestudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/MormonismAndTheTemple.pdf

His approach began with the recognition that  in 3 Nephi Jesus explicitly comes to the temple, and that led to his Illuminating the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon at the Temple.  After 3 Nephi, the theme of the Book of Mormon is not primarily to proclaim the gospel but to describe the fall of the people from this happy state in 4 Nephi:

Quote

11 And they were married, and given in marriage, and were blessed according to the multitude of the promises which the Lord had made unto them.

12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

So I don't see the lack of formal descriptions of Nephite church organization and worship as implying that they had no priesthood or temples.  Indeed, I think their meeting together oft implies to me, that they had just those things, at least for a time. Indeed, because the promises that the Lord had made were given at the temple, I don't find it difficult to imagine just where those marriages and blessings were given.

Before their decline, the temple was an important priority.  Indeed, the focus on Nauvoo Masonry has led many scholars to overlook the importance of temples in the Book of Mormon.

Quote

The most obvious aspect of the temple in Jerusalem involved the levels of sacredness, increasing from the inner court to the holy place and to the holy of holies. According to Mircea Eliade, the three parts of the temple at Jerusalem correspond to the three cosmic regions. The lower court represents the lower regions (“Sheol,” the abode of the dead), the holy place represents the earth, and the holy of holies represents heaven. The temple is always the meeting point of heaven, earth, and the world of the dead.36 Lehi’s cosmology saw the world in these three realms (heaven, 1 Nephi 1:8; the earth, 1 Nephi 1:14; and the realm of the dead, 2 Nephi 1:14). King Benjamin, speaking from his temple, also sees the cosmos in terms of heaven, the earth, and the realm of the dead (Mosiah 2:25, 26, 41), with entrance into God’s presence as the ultimate joyous state (Mosiah 2:41). Considering 3 Nephi as a whole, we can also find these three distinct levels of sacredness: (1) darkness/separation (3 Nephi 8–10), (2) preparation/initiation (3 Nephi 11:1–17:23; 18:1–37; 19:13; 20:1–28:12), (3) apotheosis/at-one-ment (3 Nephi 17:24; 18:36–39; 19:14, 25–31; 28:10–18).

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/temple-monarchy-and-wisdom-lehis-world-and-scholarship-margaret-barker

So the passive voice declaration that "LDS temple ordinances appear to have originated with Freemasonry" could and should be modified with the observation that such an origin appears that way only to those who have decided to not explore or address the extensive details of temples and temple ordinances that appear in the Book of Mormon, at the very beginnings of Mormonism.  Indeed, one of the main insights that brought Don Bradley back to the LDS faith was his realization that stories of Joseph Smith's First Vision amounted to a Temple Endowment, years before Joseph Smith knew he'd be a restorer and translator of a new book of scripture.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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