Why does God have so many bad offspring?

[mbh26]

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

Edited May 5, 2023 by mbh26

[CA Steve]

I would not have called myself perfect but thanks for the compliment.

😜

[bluebell]

56 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

If this earth life is about testing and trying us, helping us to learn, then a better comparison--in my opinion--is school.

It's like saying, if a parent got all A's in college, why then did they sire a child who is failing middle school?  Or maybe it would be even more accurate to ask, why did they sire a child who is still hitting other people and not sharing in preschool (since that's probably a better comparison of the gulf of difference between many of us and God right now)?  The answers to those questions seem obvious.

We just aren't comparable to God yet.  The strengths we have inherited from Him are still mostly buried.  We have to grow up more before you can really see how many of His children are able to emulate Him.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

First off, Jesus wasn’t born perfect but was eventually made perfect by obediently submitting to the terrible things he suffered, most especially the horrific suffering he endured when making his atoning sacrifice for sin. There’s a big difference between being born perfect and being made perfect by learning to be obedient through faithfully enduring great suffering.

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5)

Second, though Jesus may have been the first to be made perfect by learning to be fully obedient through suffering, there always have been many other noble and great spirits who were and are sent to earth with great inherent spiritual gifts and potential. The Lord informed Abraham, the Father of the Faithful, that he was one of those noble and great spirits who were foreordained to come to earth and, like Jesus, be made holy in much the same manner that Jesus was made holy.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3)

Finally, it’s no big secret that in the resurrection the vast majority of the human family are going to inherit either the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms of heavenly glory, and this because though many are called comparatively few will ultimately be chosen to inherit the fulness of salvation known as exaltation.

Edited May 5, 2023 by teddyaware

[Nofear]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

While there is some variance of opinion on the theology of it, my interpretation is that the fundamental core of our character stems from a something (called "intelligence") that is co-eternal with God, is uncreate, and beyond the control of God*. Nevertheless, God chooses to help us. To that end, I don't view God's "success rate" as anything approaching a failure.

"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits." -- Joseph Smith



* I believe the technology of the Atonement is an exception to that. By the Atonement our fundamental character can be improved upon. However, it is not something that can be imposed upon one. It has to be a fully cooperative endeavor.

[MustardSeed]

Making this personal, it does seem strange that I can be so foul and depraved when I am a direct descendant of God Himself. 
 

 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

Do you have any children?  And if so, did they all turn out as perfect as you are?   

I'm not saying that you are saying you are perfect.  This is a rhetorical question.  But I think many of us have experienced children that don't always go in the paths that we've taught them to follow.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

Allowing our own personalities (or whatever one wants to call the expression of our eternal intelligences/core being) not to be dominated by him and Heavenly Mother and any other strong presence is one of the reasons we likely had to experience mortality as part of our growing process, away from what is most likely a very overwhelming family environment influence.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

3 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

Not all natural capacities are fully developed without proper nurture. 

We also come equipped with mortal and corruptible human bodies which play a significant influence in our genetic disposition and influences our mortal nature.  Only after this corruption puts on incorruption via the resurrection will we be fully capable of realizing our divine potential.   

These factors and others don't make a direct comparison of mortal parents/mortal offspring and divine parents/mortal offspring possible.  A lot of our disposition in mortality comes from fallen nature (DNA), which we directly inherit from our mortal parents - which makes the observation that "the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree" fairly accurate.  It doesn't work the exact same way with our Heavenly Parents who we don't inherit DNA directly from.  We don't inherit the same traits in the same way.   We don't fully understand how we are literal children of heavenly parents or how influential our pre-spirit birth intelligences might be on our disposition.  Too many unknowns to make any direct comparisons.  But it is our faith that we have the capacity to become like them in every divine respect.  That doesn't necessarily mean that we should expect to have such divine attributes fully developed at this stage.  I personally can see elements of divinity manifest in all of God's human creation, even the "bad" ones.  Just needs more nurturing.  

Edited May 5, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

I think the non LDS Christian would say that we need to be sinners to know what true grace is?

[Pyreaux]

It might be that people under normal circumstances might actually be better than they currently behave. The earth seems to have a pull to evil Rabbis call The Evil Inclination (yetzer hara). It effects humans and even angels that spend too much time here. The angels don't fully understand why humans fall. When Azazel and his angels judged humanity and came to Earth to help them, the Evil Inclination overcame them too and they lusted after the daughters of men. People may not be as evil as much as they are weak to the otherly forces that subject them. The evil inclination is a necessary factor in the continued existence of the world, for without it no man would build a house, marry, raise a family, or engage in trade (Genesis Rabbah 9:9; Clementine Homilies 19:21)

Edited May 5, 2023 by Pyreaux

[pogi]

47 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think the non LDS Christian would say that we need to be sinners to know what true grace is?

I don't think we should exclude LDS Christians from that:

“It must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, … righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad”

"And if ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall say there is no righteousness.  And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness...and if these things are not there is no God."  (2 Nephi 2)

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by pogi

[CV75]

4 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I've observed generations of people in my time on this earth so far.  Not always, but more often than not it seems to me that the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.  Children often possess similar strengths and flaws of character to their parents.  I understand the idea of respecting agency but why is that our all powerful, all knowing, and perfect Heavenly parents sired around 120 billion imperfect spirit children and only one perfect person?  It seems like the percentages should be better than that even if just by probability.

I think Abraham 3: 18 - 19 helps us understand that we have no beginning, so whenever it was that we picked up our Father-(Parent-)child relationship, we already possessed a level of intelligence. Jesus was evidently firstborn, but given we are all "gnolaum" this must have been in the sense of development, where we told our Parents we are coming when we were ready, and they lovingly obliged (similarly, how much control does a mother have over the timing of her delivery)?

A third part fell far from the tree, though all were gnolaum and capable of choosing to follow the Father's will.

[The Nehor]

I was a bad influence on everyone. Sorry about that.

[rpn]

Didn't read the other posts.

Why would you say that He has "so many bad offspring"?    He really just has a whole bunch of eternal spirit children who are doing their best to get through a life, largely without really knowing Him or having much opportunity to experience the peace and joy that comes from that and from learning to control our body's, parts, passions and appetites consistent with His will and as intended so we can become like Them.  

Every spirit who gets a body and comes to earth CHOSE His plan.   But we get here without that memory and with a mortal body that prone to put itself first in all of preservation, and embrace our appetites without controlling and banking them so everyone's boat can float equally.

I'll agree that most of His children are making large or small mistakes.   But many of them aren't "bad" (even if what they do are contrary to God's will and oppositional to having a world with complete joy and peace and goodness).

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by rpn

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, rpn said:

Didn't read the other posts.

Why would you say that He has "so many bad offspring"?    He really just has a whole bunch of eternal spirit children who are doing their best to get through a life, largely without really knowing Him or having much opportunity to experience the peace and joy that comes from that and from learning to control our body's, parts, passions and appetites consistent with His will and as intended so we can become like Them.  

Every spirit who gets a body and comes to earth CHOSE His plan.   But we get here without that memory and with a mortal body that prone to put itself first in all of preservation, and embrace our appetites without controlling and banking them so everyone's boat can float equally.

I'll agree that most of His children are making large or small mistakes.   But many of them aren't "bad" (even if what they do are contrary to God's will and oppositional to having a world with complete joy and peace and goodness.

 

Jacob 5 talks a good deal about good fruit (tame, or covenant-keeping children of God) and bad fruit (wild, or children without covenant). It seems that bad fruit is the product of decay (v.3; apostasy) and loftiness (v. 48; pride), not whether the fruits' origin could be traced to the mother/natural or other/wild trees, or where their branches were placed.

[mbh26]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

First off, Jesus wasn’t born perfect but was eventually made perfect by obediently submitting to the terrible things he suffered, most especially the horrific suffering he endured when making his atoning sacrifice for sin. There’s a big difference between being born perfect and being made perfect by learning to be obedient through faithfully enduring great suffering.

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (Hebrews 5)

Second, though Jesus may have been the first to be made perfect by learning to be fully obedient through suffering, there always have been many other noble and great spirits who were and are sent to earth with great inherent spiritual gifts and potential. The Lord informed Abraham, the Father of the Faithful, that he was one of those noble and great spirits who were foreordained to come to earth and, like Jesus, be made holy in much the same manner that Jesus was made holy.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. (Abraham 3)

Finally, it’s no big secret that in the resurrection the vast majority of the human family are going to inherit either the terrestrial or telestial kingdoms of heavenly glory, and this because though many are called comparatively few will ultimately be chosen to inherit the fulness of salvation known as exaltation.

Thanks Teddy.  Do you have an opinion on whether our Heavenly Father was once a flawed and sinful man like us or was He the savior of His mortal world like Jesus is of ours?  It seems to me that in the Pearl of Great Price it's pretty clear that God the Father knew before the earth was created that Jehovah was like unto Him and the only one of His spirit children capable of carrying out the atonement in mortality.  

For those that do achieve exaltation and become gods and goddesses and begat spirit children, are they really the gods and parents of these spirit children or is their God really Jesus?  I know people say that the scriptures say we can be just like God but I don't see how that's possible since no two people are ever exactly alike.  

Edited May 5, 2023 by mbh26

[Calm]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

First off, Jesus wasn’t born perfect but was eventually made perfect by obediently submitting to the terrible things he suffered, most especially the horrific suffering he endured when making his atoning sacrifice for sin.

There is perfection in being completed, fulfilled (which I assume Jesus was not, not having yet performed all aspects of the Atonement) and perfection in being sinless.  He appears to have been sinless from birth from the scriptures.

[JLHPROF]

Is this a nature vs nurture question?

The environment in which we are born as mortals makes perfection basically impossible in this life.  Regardless of the divine genetic sparks within.

Imagines how many of our flaws would disappear if we weren't exposed to so much evil stimulus on a regular basis.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is perfection in being completed, fulfilled (which I assume Jesus was not, not having yet performed all aspects of the Atonement) and perfection in being sinless.  He appears to have been sinless from birth from the scriptures.

Which leads to the question whether sinless and perfect are the same as we often imply or just adjacent.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think the non LDS Christian would say that we need to be sinners to know what true grace is?

So God wants us to be sinners?  It’s a necessity?

I’m not sure I understand so just asking some clarifying questions. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Which leads to the question whether sinless and perfect are the same as we often imply or just adjacent.

I like how Robert millet explains that perfect is just another term for whole. 

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So God wants us to be sinners?  It’s a necessity?

I’m not sure I understand so just asking some clarifying questions. 

It's something I remember someone that is non LDS Christian saying. But I think it's more along the lines of even the little sins should be grouped all together with the worst sins. Therefore, how very important it is we have a Savior to save us.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Tacenda

[mbh26]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Making this personal, it does seem strange that I can be so foul and depraved when I am a direct descendant of God Himself. 
 

 

It seems strange to me as well.  

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's something I remember someone that is non LDS Christian saying. But I think it's more along the lines of even the little sins should be grouped all together with the worst sins. Therefore, how very important it is we have a Savior to save us.

Sure, we often emphasis the same.

But I’m not sure how that answers the questions in the OP. Can you clarify that part?