Why does God have so many bad offspring?

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

You mean, like the virgin birth?

Yeah, that is why Jesus was different when he was (sort of) mortal. I suspect there might be something in his premortal creation that was different as well. Maybe.

[MiserereNobis]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Basically we believe He just is better than the rest of us. He has/had the capacity to be sinless because He is a God and He was foreordained because (unlike satan) His whole focus was doing the will of God the Father and His love for us, not Himself.

Ok, this makes sense. If He was a God in the pre-existence, but the rest of us are only Gods in embryo (Mark uses this term a lot, I assume it's a good metaphor), then He was further along the path of progression?

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect there was some kind of ontological difference between Christ and the rest of us. We just have no idea what it could be. On Earth it was being divine and mortal but I suspect there was some difference between His creation and ours. That is mostly a guess though.

Could it be my thoughts above? That He was further along in progression?

I was going to ask if He was exalted prior to coming to Earth or after the resurrection, but I feel pretty sure that would be getting into speculative territory and I'm more interested on settled or at least mainly agreed upon answers.

I bet @JLHPROF could pull up some cool quotes from the 1800s on these questions  

[mbh26]

19 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Basically we believe He just is better than the rest of us. He has/had the capacity to be sinless because He is a God and He was foreordained because (unlike satan) His whole focus was doing the will of God the Father and His love for us, not Himself.

I also remember being taught that Moses was a type of Christ.  The Bible says Moses fasted for 40 days and 40 nights as well.  I don't even know how that is physically possible, divine level of willpower or not, for most of us without dying first, especially if fasting means no water in a dessert in the Middle East.  But my question is if Christ is the best of us, were there any close seconds, or is there an immediate drop off between Jesus and the next most righteous person?  

[mbh26]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect there was some kind of ontological difference between Christ and the rest of us. We just have no idea what it could be. On Earth it was being divine and mortal but I suspect there was some difference between His creation and ours. That is mostly a guess though.

So, why wouldn't God just make us all the way He made Jesus Christ?  

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

I also remember being taught that Moses was a type of Christ.  The Bible says Moses fasted for 40 days and 40 nights as well.  I don't even know how that is physically possible, divine level of willpower or not, for most of us without dying first, especially if fasting means no water in a dessert in the Middle East.  But my question is if Christ is the best of us, were there any close seconds, or is there an immediate drop off between Jesus and the next most righteous person?  

Some monks go on a liquid diet for Lent. Of course, the liquid they are drinking is beer:

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/35537/these-17th-century-monks-did-a-beer-fast-for-lent

Ah, to be a German monk!

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

So, why wouldn't God just make us all the way He made Jesus Christ?  

That is probably beyond human knowledge. C.S. Lewis took a stab at it in “Mere Christianity”. I am unconvinced by his reasoning since it was tied to the concept of the Trinity and to the Fall. I come closer to the rest of Christianity in seeing the Fall as tragic than most church members but not that far.

[MiserereNobis]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That is probably beyond human knowledge. C.S. Lewis took a stab at it in “Mere Christianity”. I am unconvinced by his reasoning since it was tied to the concept of the Trinity and to the Fall. I come closer to the rest of Christianity in seeing the Fall as tragic than most church members but not that far.

It's adjacent to the problem of evil, which I believe is unsolvable (even in the LDS paradigm). We can only go so far with reasoning. It can take us a long way down the path, but it can't get us to spiritual truth. That requires faith and often walking in the darkness. Such things are anathema to non-believers, and I totally and fully understand why, and I never fault anyone for struggling with the problem of evil and losing faith over it.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's adjacent to the problem of evil, which I believe is unsolvable (even in the LDS paradigm). We can only go so far with reasoning. It can take us a long way down the path, but it can't get us to spiritual truth. That requires faith and often walking in the darkness. Such things are anathema to non-believers, and I totally and fully understand why, and I never fault anyone for struggling with the problem of evil and losing faith over it.

I know this has been referenced on this board previously, but have you ever read or listened to David L. Paulsen's September 21, 1999 presentation on Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil?

I'm just wondering if that presentation factors into your assessment of the "LDS paradigm", above.

[CV75]

21 hours ago, rpn said:

Ish't Jacob speaking to a group who do know of the words and works of God?  Sinning against the light we already have is wickedness of course, but it isn't always inherently evil.

I can think of no example of a child of God who was/is inherently evil, but we certainly become bad/wicked/evil of our own volition until the point that we repent or become sons of perdition. This has been the case since Satan and his followers rebelled in heaven. In this way, God has bad offspring. He is dealing with this bad and evil fruit in the parable of Jacob 5

Abraham 3:22-23 indicates there were intelligences (which had no beginning and are gnoulaum), a subset of which were souls and spirits, a subset of which were noble and great, or good, and a subset of One like Him. I guess that leaves some that were not so good, or even bad, but I wouldn't call these His spirit offspring; they couldn't progress that far (yet, anyway).

[CV75]

20 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I don't understand it very well.  I believed in the axiom, "I know I'm somebody because God doesn't make any junk."  And yet God created Satan, and 1/3 of the demons that hate and seek to torment us in this world.  

I would say He did organize them, and at the time, they were all good, but with time and opportunity some decided to do rebel. Even the devil is "somebody," he was an intelligence organized into the premortal council of children, and even holding some higher level of authority, but he ended up not being "somebody" I'd like to be like. The third part felt differently!

Edited May 6, 2023 by CV75

[The Nehor]

Remember that in the Book of Moses it was said this is the worst of all worlds. Maybe we are looking at a really biased sample?

[mbh26]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is probably beyond human knowledge. C.S. Lewis took a stab at it in “Mere Christianity”. I am unconvinced by his reasoning since it was tied to the concept of the Trinity and to the Fall. I come closer to the rest of Christianity in seeing the Fall as tragic than most church members but not that far.

Ok, let me take a stab at it.  If it's something God didn't do, then it must not be possible, right?  We're eternal spiritual beings without beginning nor end according to the Pearl of Great Price.  So perhaps God allowed us into his "training program," knowing that it would be a long hard struggle for most of us.  Perfect spirit beings like Jesus are rare.  If God only accepted the very best spirit children into His family, it wouldn't be a very big family.  So He gave us a chance to prove ourselves and way to help us become good enough to be a part of the family?  

[mbh26]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I can think of no example of a child of God who was/is inherently evil, but we certainly become bad/wicked/evil of our own volition until the point that we repent or become sons of perdition. This has been the case since Satan and his followers rebelled in heaven. In this way, God has bad offspring. He is dealing with this bad and evil fruit in the parable of Jacob 5

Abraham 3:22-23 indicates there were intelligences (which had no beginning and are gnoulaum), a subset of which were souls and spirits, a subset of which were noble and great, or good, and a subset of One like Him. I guess that leaves some that were not so good, or even bad, but I wouldn't call these His spirit offspring; they couldn't progress that far (yet, anyway).

But Lucifer and Christ are spiritual brothers, are they not?  They're both spirit children of Heavenly Father.  What does that mean if they're not offspring of the same God?  

[mbh26]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I would say He did organize them, and at the time, they were all good, but with time and opportunity some decided to do rebel. Even the devil is "somebody," he was an intelligence organized into the premortal council of children, and even holding some higher level of authority, but he ended up not being "somebody" I'd like to be like. The third part felt differently!

That actually makes sense.  Thanks.

[mfbukowski]

Why are there so many sick people in hospitals?

WE made ourselves sick, and now He is here to help us get better 😜

Edited May 7, 2023 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

56 minutes ago, mbh26 said:

But Lucifer and Christ are spiritual brothers, are they not?  They're both spirit children of Heavenly Father.  What does that mean if they're not offspring of the same God?  

Yes, they are spirit children and offspring of the same God and are at the same time without beginning and "gnolaum." The way I see it, they chose to follow the Father, and then chose differently at some point before the war in heaven.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Remember that in the Book of Moses it was said this is the worst of all worlds. Maybe we are looking at a really biased sample?

Moses 7:

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the ^acreations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great ^bwickedness as among thy brethren.

I think it's relative -- there is still wickedness among the other workmanship of His hands, but Satan himself does not dwell with them. I think verse 37 indicates that Satan has been set among this particular workmanship; he was cursed and has made his abode here more permanently here than anywhere else (and why not -- he knew who was coming!). It is even, seemingly, his last abode, according to the things mentioned in the rest of the chapter that have since been explained to have to do with his final destruction).

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father...

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mbh26 said:

Ok, let me take a stab at it.  If it's something God didn't do, then it must not be possible, right?  We're eternal spiritual beings without beginning nor end according to the Pearl of Great Price.  So perhaps God allowed us into his "training program," knowing that it would be a long hard struggle for most of us.  Perfect spirit beings like Jesus are rare.  If God only accepted the very best spirit children into His family, it wouldn't be a very big family.  So He gave us a chance to prove ourselves and way to help us become good enough to be a part of the family?  

I think it is a big leap from God didn’t do something to He can’t. I don’t think we can say they are rare either. What does that even mean to God who knows all things?

It is not being “good enough”. It is becoming like Christ. I think there is something else there. I suspect it is one of those things where if I was told the answer I wouldn’t understand it.

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I know this has been referenced on this board previously, but have you ever read or listened to David L. Paulsen's September 21, 1999 presentation on Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil?

I'm just wondering if that presentation factors into your assessment of the "LDS paradigm", above.

I haven’t read that. I was just responding to the ideas that have been put forth on this board. I’ll check it out and let you know.

[InCognitus]

Just now, MiserereNobis said:

I haven’t read that. I was just responding to the ideas that have been put forth on this board. I’ll check it out and let you know.

Thanks, I'm really curious to know what you think of that.