The lies we tell ourselves (sorry, a bit of a long read)

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jim Dandy said:

I am inclined to believe you are never glib about depression and suicide, but I'm not sure what you mean when you say you are never contrarian about depression or suicide.  For someone considering suicide, wouldn't you want to be contrarian about it?

Changing minds for the better should be everyone's goal, I believe. 

Contrarian means being against something just because other people are for it. As for changing minds, I can guarantee that no one on this message board has ever changed their mind because of something I said. 

[Bernard Gui]

37 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Given your long history of posts on this board wherein you show no apparent evidence of having a working understanding of empathy, I can safely say that you are the least qualified member of this board to be commenting on this issue.

Insulting language, or statements meant to do nothing more than provoke others
Personal attacks or squabbles (dispute opinions not persons)

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jim Dandy said:

So if someone was contemplating suicide, and "for it" as in favor of the idea, wouldn't you be contrarian about it rather than go along with those who were for it?

I'm sorry.  I hope things will go better for you in the future... as long as you are giving good counsel.

I am almost never against something just because others are for it. I don’t worry about having my influence, as I don’t flatter myself that I have any. Honestly, I go back and forth on why I waste time here. 

[ttribe]

22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Insulting language, or statements meant to do nothing more than provoke others
Personal attacks or squabbles (dispute opinions not persons)

Oh, report me, then.

[rpn]

I agree with OP that there is a way to provide comfort and peace without promising things contrary to the teachings of the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I diverge in that we have no doctrine of what the fate of those who commit suicide is.   It seems highly likely that it isn't the same for everyone.   And it is almost always an issue of mental health that is factored into judgement.   So maybe those speaking received spiritual confirmation that what they were teaching applied full to this person, and the OP here is just wrong.

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Oh, report me, then.

If you insist.

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, Jim Dandy said:

In my vernacular "Hang on!" would mean pretty much the same thing I would be saying if I was instead saying "Tough it out!" 

If you mean "hang on" then you should probably just say "hang on."  If you mean "tough it out" then say "tough it out."  Communication will be greatly improved.

[ttribe]

3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If you insist.

It is, of course, informative that you are rushing to the defense of someone who regularly engages in self-righteous judgment of others on this board.

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, ttribe said:

It is, of course, informative that you are rushing to the defense of someone who regularly engages in self-righteous judgment of others on this board.

Informative in what way?

Can the rules of the board be ignored just because you don’t like someone?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Informative in what way?

Can the rules of the board be ignored just because you don’t like someone?

Good question. Do the board nannying rules apply to you?

[Bernard Gui]

12 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Good question. Do the board nannying rules apply to you?

Absolutely. Report me and I will gladly take my lumps.😬
Informative of what?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

I think what is being asked, however inappropriately or self righteously, is how much of a serious sin is suicide?

And the bottom line is we don't know for sure.

I think the deciding factor is probably one of willfulness or agency.  If one is in perfect command of their faculties and chooses to reject God's gift of life then it's a great sin.  If one is plagued with the very real demons of mental illness and depression to the point they aren't making rational choices then I expect God would forgive them.  It's about how much choice they really had and only God can say.

Either way it's not our call.  Does the Church permit temple clothing burials for suicide?  I'm not sure it always has.

Edited September 8, 2022 by JLHPROF

[ksfisher]

53 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

If what I mean by saying "Hang on!" is the same as what I mean by saying "Tough it out!" then I can make either of those statements and I think Wittgenstein would be equally pleased!

You can either play a game that only you understand or you can communicate with people.  People are going to respond in a more meaningful and insightful manner if they understand what you’re saying.    I think most people appreciate clear communication over word games. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

7 hours ago, Islander said:

My apologies for the long post ut it could not be helped. 
Unfortunately, a member of our ward committed suicide a few days ago. The memorial service was this past Saturday. A man of 40, left behind his pregnant wife and 3 children. I can not begin to imagine the devastation and multi-generational impact of his death. It is a loss and event that is hard to quantify in terms of the chaos, grief and long-term impact. The family is shaken to its core, as anyone can imagine.

The service was very well attended. They have lots of family in the community as well as out of state. It was moving and, I believe, provided some comfort and reassurance to the family amid their suffering. I rather not delve into the potential reasons for the suicide since there is still a law enforcement inquiry ongoing. For the purposes of the post, I don’t believe it matters.
What stroke me in a perplexing way was the many, many instances in the service that participants made mention of “the family being reunited across the veil”. And how “he will be watching and waiting for his family from beyond the veil.”  

I understand that the family is in desperate need of support and affirmation about the future. I understand that it is very human to attempt to mitigate profound pain and despair; to explain the unexplainable and bring some measure of peace to their tormented hearts. 

 

I edited this down to three paragraphs, to address a few things.

1. Funerals are for the living, as you pointed out in paragraph #3. Bishops and other speakers are under the strain of teaching, or explaining the Gospel. However each have a very serious responsibility, not to speculate or suppose they know the mind, or will God, in all things, or to sit in judgment seat for those who have done nothing. Their role is to do all they can to administer the healing “Balm of Gilead”, to those who are suffering beyond measure. Death under the best of circumstances, even for those who have lived very long lives, surrounded many loved ones, who pass away. However death by suicide leaves all affected, confused, shocked, despondent, and in many cases very, very angry. Angry that one who loved them so much could leave them in this way, or more angry they did not see the signs quickly enough, didn’t do enough, or even worse, could have never done enough. In fact these few factors I’ve listed, are what requires the “Wisdom of Solomon”, and an added measure of love and compassion for all those who are seeking to survive such a tragic ordeal. Especially, as you also noted, both wives or children, are at a much greater risk of repeating this for many years to come.
 

2. In addition to this, a large percentage of individuals who take their lives, struggle with a pain (be it of body or mind) they see no other way. Because such pain alters the reality they are seeking to navigate, often believing themselves to be in such a Hell, or Hell itself, feeling this is the only escape. Others, many others believe that they are the cause of great pain to those they love the most, a pain they feel “duty bound”, to release them from the grips of that pain. The worst reason, is for those seeking to avoid judgement, when in reality (when of sound mind) only hasten “Eternal Judgement”. 

3. Thankfully, the judgements of Jesus Christ, our judge and Savior are both true (Fair) and righteous, for “God the Father, has given all judgement to the Son” (to quote or paraphrase scripture). Our greatest blessing, is that he (The Som) also committed some of that judgment to the 12 Apostles, those in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. All of those who will play some part in the judgement of all mankind, lived among mankind, and were part of mankind. This thankfully means the Lord Jesus Christ, who understands all that we have faced, or will face. I don’t know about others, but this brings me a great deal of peace, that those who have walked the same path, will know me, and understand my struggles.
 

Please forgive my long reply!  

 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Jim Dandy said:

Actually, I have felt that level of despair.  Several times in my life.  You don't know what I have experienced and it is arrogant for you to presume you do.  Next time try asking me about what I have experienced.

Did you actually go through with trying to kill yourself but your method did not work or you were saved by others or did you just think about it and then reject doing it?  
 

If the second, then there is no way for you to know if you were really at that level of despair as a person who killed themselves. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

dup

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Jim Dandy said:

How about saying "Hang on!  I called an ambulance and they'll be here very soon!" or "Hang on! I'll take you to the hospital myself!  My pickup truck is right here and I know how to drive very fast!"

In my vernacular "Hang on!" would mean pretty much the same thing I would be saying if I was instead saying "Tough it out!"  Rather than to tell the guy with a javelin to just go ahead and die.,

If you want to truly help those who might be contemplating killing themselves, perhaps you should think of adapting your language so as not to be as likely to contribute to a sense of despair or desire for death in many.

I have experienced suicide ideation at way too many times in my life, including one where I stayed in bed doing nothing for three days besides occupying myself with imagining myself dying and despair had little to do with it as it was a bad reaction to a drug that just switched my brain to thinking killing myself was a more reasonable thing to do than living.  In that moment if someone had told me I needed to tough life out, it would have simply confirmed for me the absurdity of continuing and increased my interest in death.  
 

Talking to someone seriously thinking about killing themselves or even not so seriously thinking about it is not the time to put the responsibility for understanding you on the one hearing you rather than yourself.  And even just talking about suicide is not the time to demand you have a right to say things the way you want regardless of how others understand you because you don’t know who is paying attention and may take what you say as what you mean and not what you mean as what you say.  You are assuming responsibility for helping that person if you are going to tell them to tough it out or teaching others to do so, so you had better be sure what you are going to say is more likely to help than hurt.

And toughing it out is not the same as hanging on, help is on the way.  The first phrase isolates, the second one tells them they are not alone.

And bluntly the idea that life is about “toughing it out” is so repulsive to me even when I am not thinking about death, that very, very few things drive me to despair better than that idea.  You really need to find a different way of phrasing “hang on, life does get better”.

Suicide is a complicated experience and those who study it and treat those who have attempted as well as those who experience ideation have found that choice of language when talking about it is very important.  It is better, for example, to actually say what it is, killing oneself, than refer to it in more clinical or ‘soft’ terms like attempting suicide….though we have such a habit of distancing ourselves as a culture from the uncomfortable aspects of life, changing that habit is difficult. 
 

While this guideline for discussing suicide was written specifically in the context of those identifying as LGBTQ+, it can easily be expanded to any individual or group. 
 

https://www.lgbtmap.org/file/talking-about-suicide-and-lgbt-populations.pdf

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

Thank goodness we don’t need to fret all the hopeful messages given at a funeral.  Our hopes and fears alike for the fate of the dead are inconsequential except for how they motivate or demotivate us to improve ourselves.  
 

Imo 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Then why don’t you explain yourself? What other options are there other than saying hang on and don’t commit suicide or don’t bother to hang on and do commit suicide? And would you also please explicitly explain to me how you find my logic faulty? I’m thinking it’s possible that my logic is actually spot-on, and you know it, so you gave a glib, non-responsive answer because you know there is no third option.

Sometimes not saying anything at all, but just listening and being there is the best solution.

Getting them hooked up if possible with professionals who knows how to treat those with suicide ideation both with psychotherapy and biological treatments is very, very important (Electroconvulsive Therapy has a better rate of success than many drug treatments, for example; it is not the shock treatment you see in most movies, I have watched my daughter receive many treatments and the most unusual thing was she goes very red in her face as she has very fair skin).  If they refuse to go, then the next best thing is to have those who are in a position to care for them to get counseling themselves or training on how to speak and support them (and I can guarantee it won’t be in the form of “tough it out” or “ just grit your teeth and get through it”, the oh so not helpful advice offered to me too often in my youth).

What needs to change in people with suicide ideation is how they think about life and in our culture “toughing it out” is such a prevalent idea, one can drown in variations on that theme.  We need to stop referring to life as something that simply must be endured and instead promote the value of life. 

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

... I can guarantee that no one on this message board has ever changed their mind because of something I said. 

On the contrary: I used to believe that you were The Very Spawn of Satan Himself: Over the years, however, my opinion of you has softened ... just a tad.   

[Islander]

11 hours ago, Rain said:

 

Yes, we should and that's why we treat those who pass with grace because in the end we really have no idea how God will judge the person.  Meanwhile since President Kimball said it is usually through others that God meets our needs I'm ok if people try to comfort each other even IF it's not exactly the way God would do it.

 

We do know about the judgements of God. That is why we have the scriptures!!! That is precisely the reason for revelation. Otherwise what is the point? 

Like I mentioned in the intro to the post; I understand the pain and suffering and obviously I'm sympathetic to the crisis the family is going through. But can we lie from the pulpit just to comfort somebody? Do you believe it is loving to shield people from the truth and the consequences of action we take in open defiance to what God has revealed just to make them feel better? I rather not say anything. There are a thousand words we could have shared to encourage, exhort and comfort that family. We should not lie to accomplish so. That was the point I was trying to make.

[Islander]

4 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I edited this down to three paragraphs, to address a few things.

1. Funerals are for the living, as you pointed out in paragraph #3. Bishops and other speakers are under the strain of teaching, or explaining the Gospel. However each have a very serious responsibility, not to speculate or suppose they know the mind, or will God, in all things, or to sit in judgment seat for those who have done nothing. Their role is to do all they can to administer the healing “Balm of Gilead”, to those who are suffering beyond measure. Death under the best of circumstances, even for those who have lived very long lives, surrounded many loved ones, who pass away. However death by suicide leaves all affected, confused, shocked, despondent, and in many cases very, very angry. Angry that one who loved them so much could leave them in this way, or more angry they did not see the signs quickly enough, didn’t do enough, or even worse, could have never done enough. In fact these few factors I’ve listed, are what requires the “Wisdom of Solomon”, and an added measure of love and compassion for all those who are seeking to survive such a tragic ordeal. Especially, as you also noted, both wives or children, are at a much greater risk of repeating this for many years to come.
 

2. In addition to this, a large percentage of individuals who take their lives, struggle with a pain (be it of body or mind) they see no other way. Because such pain alters the reality they are seeking to navigate, often believing themselves to be in such a Hell, or Hell itself, feeling this is the only escape. Others, many others believe that they are the cause of great pain to those they love the most, a pain they feel “duty bound”, to release them from the grips of that pain. The worst reason, is for those seeking to avoid judgement, when in reality (when of sound mind) only hasten “Eternal Judgement”. 

3. Thankfully, the judgements of Jesus Christ, our judge and Savior are both true (Fair) and righteous, for “God the Father, has given all judgement to the Son” (to quote or paraphrase scripture). Our greatest blessing, is that he (The Som) also committed some of that judgment to the 12 Apostles, those in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. All of those who will play some part in the judgement of all mankind, lived among mankind, and were part of mankind. This thankfully means the Lord Jesus Christ, who understands all that we have faced, or will face. I don’t know about others, but this brings me a great deal of peace, that those who have walked the same path, will know me, and understand my struggles.
 

Please forgive my long reply!  

 

As difficult as it is' the word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword and that reality is undeniable. Our fles rebels and struggles against it constantly. but the truth stands. That is why I quoted scripture to support my position. All our desires to alleviate the suffering of that family is well intended and we should try to do all we can to help. but there is no need to lie.

I agree with you in general. My issue is lying to comfort somebody. Like I said in my reply to another member. Mercy can not rob justice. There are many words of exhortation, encouragement and comfort at times like this. No need to lie from the pulpit to try and make them feel better. It is not loving to shield someone from the truth. Actions have consequences and we must be aware of them. I understand it may not be the time and place expound on those hard to deal with truths, but we don't have to lie to sooth somebody's pain and grief. That was the point of my argument on the OP.

Thank you for your reply.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

You find a man by the side of the road with a javelin through his chest. Rather than call an ambulance, you say, "You have two choices: tough it out, or just die."

I admit that part of me is still puzzling out who is carrying around javelins and has the throwing arm and skill to get it through someone’s chest. Kudos to the assassin.

Kudos applies only to their dedication to their particular dedication to their craft and not to the murdery part.

[The Nehor]

43 minutes ago, Islander said:

We do know about the judgements of God. That is why we have the scriptures!!! That is precisely the reason for revelation. Otherwise what is the point? 

Like I mentioned in the intro to the post; I understand the pain and suffering and obviously I'm sympathetic to the crisis the family is going through. But can we lie from the pulpit just to comfort somebody? Do you believe it is loving to shield people from the truth and the consequences of action we take in open defiance to what God has revealed just to make them feel better? I rather not say anything. There are a thousand words we could have shared to encourage, exhort and comfort that family. We should not lie to accomplish so. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

32 minutes ago, Islander said:

As difficult as it is' the word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword and that reality is undeniable. Our fles rebels and struggles against it constantly. but the truth stands. That is why I quoted scripture to support my position. All our desires to alleviate the suffering of that family is well intended and we should try to do all we can to help. but there is no need to lie.

I agree with you in general. My issue is lying to comfort somebody. Like I said in my reply to another member. Mercy can not rob justice. There are many words of exhortation, encouragement and comfort at times like this. No need to lie from the pulpit to try and make them feel better. It is not loving to shield someone from the truth. Actions have consequences and we must be aware of them. I understand it may not be the time and place expound on those hard to deal with truths, but we don't have to lie to sooth somebody's pain and grief. That was the point of my argument on the OP.

Thank you for your reply.

I think this increases the probability of more suicides.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

We do know about the judgements of God.

We don't know this man's heart so we can't know how He would judge specifically him.

1 hour ago, Islander said:

That is why we have the scriptures!!! That is precisely the reason for revelation. Otherwise what is the point? 

The point is to judge our own worthiness with God's help so we can change and become more like Him.  Not so we can judge anyone else.

1 hour ago, Islander said:

Like I mentioned in the intro to the post; I understand the pain and suffering and obviously I'm sympathetic to the crisis the family is going through. But can we lie from the pulpit just to comfort somebody?

I highly doubt any of his loved ones were lying. They may have been mistaken, but few would be giving intentionally false statements as a measure of dealing with their grief.

1 hour ago, Islander said:

Do you believe it is loving to shield people from the truth and the consequences of action we take in open defiance to what God has revealed just to make them feel better?

I think that I can't judge if he was defiant of God.

1 hour ago, Islander said:

I rather not say anything. There are a thousand words we could have shared to encourage, exhort and comfort that family. We should not lie to accomplish so. That was the point I was trying to make.

Good.  Don't lie.  I get that's the point you're trying to make.  I just don't feel I can judge these people as liars and rebels.