The lies we tell ourselves (sorry, a bit of a long read)

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

Mercy can not rob justice.

Nope. But 'mercy cometh because of the atonement', and Jesus 'satisfied the demands of justice' (Alma 42:23, Mosiah 15:9).

If justice has claim on any one of us, we are in deep trouble.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[jkwilliams]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit that part of me is still puzzling out who is carrying around javelins and has the throwing arm and skill to get it through someone’s chest. Kudos to the assassin.

Kudos applies only to their dedication to their particular dedication to their craft and not to the murdery part.

Credit that to my recent rereading of the Iliad. 

[Jerry Atric]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I can guarantee it won’t be in the form of “tough it out” or “ just grit your teeth and get through it”, the oh so not helpful advice offered to me too often in my youth)

Why are poo pooping "tough it out" or "just grit your teeth and get through it"? That could be advice someone needs to get through a suicidal episode. You can't guarantee a psychologist wouldn't give that advice. What if that's exactly what someone needs to hear? There are lots of people dealing with suicidal thoughts who don't want to be treated like they're a victim. Your way of dealing with suicidal thoughts doesn't always help. Infact, it can make some people finally say screw it, I'm done.  Some people respond better by having a loved one tell them to snap out of it, you have a family, get up and go to work, get over yourself! 

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

There are lots of people dealing with suicidal thoughts who don't want to be treated like they're a victim.

What you don’t realize apparently is that telling someone they just need to tough it out is extraordinarily patronizing because the vast majority have been doing exactly that and that is one reason why they could be where they are.  Also telling someone they have to tough it out is telling them they can’t change things so just accept life as it is.  It is telling them to accept being a victim, to be passive and not try to change things, but stay stuck in the status quo.

There may be a few that respond to “tough it out”, but few enough that one shouldn’t assume that approach until one knows them well and they have given feedback that is what works for them.

It gets better, things will change, you can change things when you are ready…positive, life affirming, progress can happen even in tiny steps…those change the focus from on the pain to something positive.

https://afsp.org/story/if-someone-tells-you-they-re-thinking-about-suicide-a-realconvo-guide-from-afsp

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/suicide/in-depth/suicide/art-20044707

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[Jerry Atric]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

 It is telling them to accept being a victim, to be passive and not try to change things, but stay stuck in the status quo

Just the opposite, actually. In my opinion, many of the drugs and treatments psychiatrist recommend can be worse than learning how to "tough it out." Today, a lot of men are treated like they're infants and need to be coddled to make it through life. That's why so many are turning to drugs for their mental problems. Men are not learning how to be men anymore and it's guiding them into a state of depression for long periods of their life. 

 

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

What you don’t realize apparently is that telling someone they just need to tough it out is extraordinarily patronizing because the vast majority have been doing exactly that and that is one reason why they could be where they are

No it's not. And the reason people have been telling someone with suicidal thoughts to "tough it out",  is because it works a lot of the time. Some people need to be reminded that there are others here on Earth that depend on them. That they need to stick around for their family. 

 

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Also telling someone they have to tough it out is telling them they can’t change things so just accept life as it is

That's your opinion and I don't agree at all. 

[Raingirl]

57 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Why are poo pooping "tough it out" or "just grit your teeth and get through it"? That could be advice someone needs to get through a suicidal episode. You can't guarantee a psychologist wouldn't give that advice. What if that's exactly what someone needs to hear? There are lots of people dealing with suicidal thoughts who don't want to be treated like they're a victim. Your way of dealing with suicidal thoughts doesn't always help. Infact, it can make some people finally say screw it, I'm done.  Some people respond better by having a loved one tell them to snap out of it, you have a family, get up and go to work, get over yourself! 

Your ignorance and lack of compassion is shameful and could end up doing serious harm. 

[Jerry Atric]

2 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Your ignorance and lack of compassion is shameful and could end up doing serious 

Instead of acting like a victim, why don't explain how I'm wrong. 

[Raingirl]

1 minute ago, Jerry Atric said:

Instead of acting like a victim, why don't explain how I'm wrong. 

What an asinine, nonsensical statement. 

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think what is being asked, however inappropriately or self righteously, is how much of a serious sin is suicide?

And the bottom line is we don't know for sure.

I think the deciding factor is probably one of willfulness or agency.  If one is in perfect command of their faculties and chooses to reject God's gift of life then it's a great sin.  If one is plagued with the very real demons of mental illness and depression to the point they aren't making rational choices then I expect God would forgive them.  It's about how much choice they really had and only God can say.

Either way it's not our call.  Does the Church permit temple clothing burials for suicide?  I'm not sure it always has.

It seems tome that if someone gets to the point they take their own life there are some serious factors that we cannot understand.  To even discuss it in terms of a sin or a great sin is rather despicable. And there have been a lot of despicable comments on this thread.  Some positive ones as well but far to may despicable. And who cares what the church says about a suicide person being buried in their temple clothes  This thread is really a fine example of the  awful things religion can lead people to conclude and think they know something about it. THat is the great sin really.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Instead of acting like a victim, why don't explain how I'm wrong. 

It has been explained and .I have posted professional suggestions for how to actually talk to those with suicidal ideation.

[Jerry Atric]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

It has been explained and .I have posted professional suggestions for how to actually talk to those with suicidal ideation.

You've explained your opinion and you've posted a "professional opinion." Doesn't make either correct in all cases. 

A lot of men wouldn't and don't respond well to your way of dealing with suicidal thoughts. What you're putting forth wouldn't help me at all if I was dealing with depression. If I'm depressed or feeling hopeless I don't need to feel loved, I don't need to know it's going to get better, I don't need to know I can change things, I don't need to know progress can happen. A lot of men feel the same. We already know all that! Suicide for some men has nothing to do with what you're putting forth. You should remember that before poo pooing how others deal with suicidal thoughts. Everyone is different. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

You've explained your opinion and you've posted a "professional opinion." Doesn't make either correct in all cases. 

A lot of men wouldn't and don't respond well to your way of dealing with suicidal thoughts. What you're putting forth wouldn't help me at all if I was dealing with depression. If I'm depressed or feeling hopeless I don't need to feel loved, I don't need to know it's going to get better, I don't need to know I can change things, I don't need to know progress can happen. A lot of men feel the same. We already know all that! Suicide for some men has nothing to do with what you're putting forth. You should remember that before poo pooing how others deal with suicidal thoughts. Everyone is different. 

I'm trying to imagine how "suck it up" would ever be helpful to say to someone who is suicidal. 

[Meadowchik]

18 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

When talking with someone who is seriously considering killing himself or herself, I believe the goal should be to persuade that person to continue living, rather than try to kill himself or herself.  Even if life situations are extremely difficult for him or her to endure,  the best choice is to continue to live.  I would not speak of the fact that the person would continue to live even if he or she killed herself.  I probably wouldn't say that.  I would suggest continuing to live in his or her current situation in life while enduring all of the challenges he or she is currently facing, and getting through them, while enjoying all of the good things he or she would still be able to enjoy.  If he or she loved somebody else who also loved him or her, like a Mom or a Dad or some other family member or friend, I would talk about how... I'm going to switch to s/he now instead of writing he or she... s/he would still be able to enjoy spending time with that person, or those people.  I would ask s/he who s/he had around who would miss him/her if s/he was gone.  I would talk generally about good things s/he could look forward to experiencing in the future.  Life can be hard sometimes, but there are still a lot of  good things we can enjoy in life as we go through our challenges, and those people who love us can usually help us to be able to go through those challenges.  We just need to "tough it out" during the hard times while "hanging on" to the people who love us and want to help us.  They would miss us if we went away and we don't want to make them feel sad.   

Somehow talking about "toughing out" and "hanging on" during the hard times we all face needs to be mentioned.  We need to acknowledge that life can be hard sometimes, and talk about how we can get through those hard times.  We don't want others to try to pretend that life never really gets hard.  Pretending that everything in life is good is not a realistically workable solution.  Life does get hard, sometimes.  So then how do we get through it?  We just do.  We endure it, while focusing on the good things in our life more than the bad or hard things in our life.  Otherwise we kill ourselves.

No no no, let's not be daft and pretend that only those who survive suicidal ideation actually lived. Even the unspoken suffering happened. People certainly don't simply get through it always. Mercy and grace, including to self, is in order. And to each other. Healthy attitudes shared when we speak together, for example in places like this one, do matter.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

13 hours ago, Islander said:

As difficult as it is' the word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword and that reality is undeniable. Our fles rebels and struggles against it constantly. but the truth stands. That is why I quoted scripture to support my position. All our desires to alleviate the suffering of that family is well intended and we should try to do all we can to help. but there is no need to lie.

I agree with you in general. My issue is lying to comfort somebody. Like I said in my reply to another member. Mercy can not rob justice. There are many words of exhortation, encouragement and comfort at times like this. No need to lie from the pulpit to try and make them feel better. It is not loving to shield someone from the truth. Actions have consequences and we must be aware of them. I understand it may not be the time and place expound on those hard to deal with truths, but we don't have to lie to sooth somebody's pain and grief. That was the point of my argument on the OP.

Thank you for your reply.

I did not address the scriptures you listed, I fear you have completely misunderstood the intent of what I posted. Maybe a reread will help; maybe? 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

7 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

Why are poo pooping "tough it out" or "just grit your teeth and get through it"? That could be advice someone needs to get through a suicidal episode. You can't guarantee a psychologist wouldn't give that advice. What if that's exactly what someone needs to hear? There are lots of people dealing with suicidal thoughts who don't want to be treated like they're a victim. Your way of dealing with suicidal thoughts doesn't always help. Infact, it can make some people finally say screw it, I'm done.  Some people respond better by having a loved one tell them to snap out of it, you have a family, get up and go to work, get over yourself! 

Oh my! “…get up and get over yourself”. Totally unnecessary, not to mention harsh, and very bad form! Are you LDS? 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Oh my! “…get up and get over yourself”. Totally unnecessary, not to mention harsh, and very bad form! Are you LDS? 

I seriously think I’d probably be dead if someone had told me to get up and get over myself when I was at my lowest point. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I seriously think I’d probably be dead if someone had told me to get up and get over myself when I was at my lowest point. 

I understand my ole friend, but I am sure it was not a stranger on the Internet who told you this. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I understand my ole friend, but I am sure it was not a stranger on the Internet who told you this. 

Nobody told me that, thankfully. A stranger on the Internet told me I deserved to be depressed. That didn’t help. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Nobody told me that, thankfully. A stranger on the Internet told me I deserved to be depressed. That didn’t help. 

I am so sorry, truly. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am so sorry, truly. 

It was years ago and not worth revisiting. I’m just saying people should be very careful with what they say to someone who is clinically depressed. Saying the wrong thing can have tragic consequences. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Jerry Atric said:

You've explained your opinion and you've posted a "professional opinion." Doesn't make either correct in all cases. 

A lot of men wouldn't and don't respond well to your way of dealing with suicidal thoughts. What you're putting forth wouldn't help me at all if I was dealing with depression. If I'm depressed or feeling hopeless I don't need to feel loved, I don't need to know it's going to get better, I don't need to know I can change things, I don't need to know progress can happen. A lot of men feel the same. We already know all that! Suicide for some men has nothing to do with what you're putting forth. You should remember that before poo pooing how others deal with suicidal thoughts. Everyone is different. 

So explain to me how telling someone nothing is going to change, so they might as well just keep running in place till they keel over naturally rather than speeding up the process is going to help.  Serious question.  What makes this work for some men?

It is not only women here protesting your approach could do harm, btw.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[Jerry Atric]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I seriously think I’d probably be dead if someone had told me to get up and get over myself when I was at my lowest point. 

I have an uncle who did just that with one of his kids. The family reached a point where no one could get through to the kid. The kid was violent, throwing tantrums, cussing everyone out, spitting on people, took everything out of the refrigerator and tossed it outside. Every other sentence was, I'm going to kill myself I don't want to be here anymore! So my uncle, this young man's dad, who didn't live with his son because of divorce, came into the house, picked the kid up, threw him in the truck and told him to shut up and grow up. He didn't let the kid out of his sight for two weeks. The kid went to work with him, slept in the same bed, ate every meal with him. In the end, the kid was able to snap out of it. Working with his dad and being around him 24/7 helped him realize life didn't have to be such a disaster. That hard work can be meaningful. The kids mom had the poor kid all screwed up. The dads tuff love did more for the kid in two weeks than the mom coddling approach did in 6 years. Some men are meant to be wound up then set free so they can accomplish task and get stuff done. His dad recognized the kids potential. His mom didn't. His mom was treating him like a little baby that needed constant care and needed to be looked after. It was driving the poor kid insane. 

Sometimes all you need is for someone to give you a different perspective, not coddle you like a little baby. Sorry,  but it works for some people. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Jerry Atric said:

I have an uncle who did just that with one of his kids. The family reached a point where no one could get through to the kid. The kid was violent, throwing tantrums, cussing everyone out, spitting on people, took everything out of the refrigerator and tossed it outside. Every other sentence was, I'm going to kill myself I don't want to be here anymore! So my uncle, this young man's dad, who didn't live with his son because of divorce, came into the house, picked the kid up, threw him in the truck and told him to shut up and grow up. He didn't let the kid out of his sight for two weeks. The kid went to work with him, slept in the same bed, ate every meal with him. In the end, the kid was able to snap out of it. Working with his dad and being around him 24/7 helped him realize life didn't have to be such a disaster. That hard work can be meaningful. The kids mom had the poor kid all screwed up. The dads tuff love did more for the kid in two weeks than the mom coddling approach did in 6 years. Some men are meant to be wound up then set free so they can accomplish task and get stuff done. His dad recognized the kids potential. His mom didn't. His mom was treating him like a little baby that needed constant care and needed to be looked after. It was driving the poor kid insane. 

Sometimes all you need is for someone to give you a different perspective, not coddle you like a little baby. Sorry,  but it works for some people. 

Getting psychiatric help is not coddling anyone like a little baby. That is just completely messed up. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jim Dandy said:

When talking with someone who is seriously considering killing himself or herself, I believe the goal should be to persuade that person to continue living, rather than try to kill himself or herself.  Even if life situations are extremely difficult for him or her to endure,  the best choice is to continue to live.  I would not speak of the fact that the person would continue to live even if he or she killed herself.  I probably wouldn't say that.  I would suggest continuing to live in his or her current situation in life while enduring all of the challenges he or she is currently facing, and getting through them, while enjoying all of the good things he or she would still be able to enjoy.  If he or she loved somebody else who also loved him or her, like a Mom or a Dad or some other family member or friend, I would talk about how... I'm going to switch to s/he now instead of writing he or she... s/he would still be able to enjoy spending time with that person, or those people.  I would ask s/he who s/he had around who would miss him/her if s/he was gone.  I would talk generally about good things s/he could look forward to experiencing in the future.  Life can be hard sometimes, but there are still a lot of  good things we can enjoy in life as we go through our challenges, and those people who love us can usually help us to be able to go through those challenges.  We just need to "tough it out" during the hard times while "hanging on" to the people who love us and want to help us.  They would miss us if we went away and we don't want to make them feel sad.   

Somehow talking about "toughing out" and "hanging on" during the hard times we all face needs to be mentioned.  We need to acknowledge that life can be hard sometimes, and talk about how we can get through those hard times.  We don't want others to try to pretend that life never really gets hard.  Pretending that everything in life is good is not a realistically workable solution.  Life does get hard, sometimes.  So then how do we get through it?  We just do.  We endure it, while focusing on the good things in our life more than the bad or hard things in our life.  Otherwise we kill ourselves.

Maybe rather than thinking of telling them all these things, you could start from the position of listening to them first and then encouraging them to find reasons for themselves to hang on (telling someone to hang on is different than telling them to tough it out, btw; one allows the person to not be ashamed of their weaknesses).  Advice, imo, needs to be kept very simple.  I very much like the use of “Life gets better”.  It is a thought that can become a mantra to hold on to, easily repeated over and over as needed, it can become a mediation in itself.  As well, it allows the person the freedom to explore what “better” means for them rather than it being imposed on them from the outside (others’ ‘betters’ may be felt more as burdens rather than hopes) and is therefore more likely to bring about change when the individual gets to the point they can consider moving forward again.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

I have an uncle who did just that with one of his kids. The family reached a point where no one could get through to the kid. The kid was violent, throwing tantrums, cussing everyone out, spitting on people, took everything out of the refrigerator and tossed it outside. Every other sentence was, I'm going to kill myself I don't want to be here anymore! So my uncle, this young man's dad, who didn't live with his son because of divorce, came into the house, picked the kid up, threw him in the truck and told him to shut up and grow up. He didn't let the kid out of his sight for two weeks. The kid went to work with him, slept in the same bed, ate every meal with him. In the end, the kid was able to snap out of it. Working with his dad and being around him 24/7 helped him realize life didn't have to be such a disaster. That hard work can be meaningful. The kids mom had the poor kid all screwed up. The dads tuff love did more for the kid in two weeks than the mom coddling approach did in 6 years. Some men are meant to be wound up then set free so they can accomplish task and get stuff done. His dad recognized the kids potential. His mom didn't. His mom was treating him like a little baby that needed constant care and needed to be looked after. It was driving the poor kid insane. 

Sometimes all you need is for someone to give you a different perspective, not coddle you like a little baby. Sorry,  but it works for some people. 

But what actually helped?  Telling him to get over himself (I doubt it ) or showing him he mattered to someone, someone was willing to change their own life to give him back his own?  I agree hard work can be meaningful.  So is being willing to give up one’s own space to another full time.

There is a huge difference between lecturing someone and working side by side and taking care of them.  One shows love and commitment, the other shows mostly the need to be right.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm