The lies we tell ourselves (sorry, a bit of a long read)

[Islander]

My apologies for the long post ut it could not be helped. 
Unfortunately, a member of our ward committed suicide a few days ago. The memorial service was this past Saturday. A man of 40, left behind his pregnant wife and 3 children. I can not begin to imagine the devastation and multi-generational impact of his death. It is a loss and event that is hard to quantify in terms of the chaos, grief and long-term impact. The family is shaken to its core, as anyone can imagine.

The service was very well attended. They have lots of family in the community as well as out of state. It was moving and, I believe, provided some comfort and reassurance to the family amid their suffering. I rather not delve into the potential reasons for the suicide since there is still a law enforcement inquiry ongoing. For the purposes of the post, I don’t believe it matters.
What stroke me in a perplexing way was the many, many instances in the service that participants made mention of “the family being reunited across the veil”. And how “he will be watching and waiting for his family from beyond the veil.”  

I understand that the family is in desperate need of support and affirmation about the future. I understand that it is very human to attempt to mitigate profound pain and despair; to explain the unexplainable and bring some measure of peace to their tormented hearts. But must resort to lies, fabrications and magical thinking? Or should we rely on the promises of the Lord, His unfailing love and steadfast arm to uphold and provide in times of dread and need? Should we offer by way of consolation words that are clearly outside of what the Lord has revealed and spoken?
It is the Lord our God the Author of all life. It is His Gift and we were created in His image and for His glory. He is the ONLY ONE that can determine when and how we leave this world.  “My times are in your hands” (Psalm 31:15). God is the giver of life. “He gives, and He takes away” (Job 1:21) Suicide, the taking of one’s own life, is ungodly because it rejects God’s gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God’s authority upon themselves to end his or her own life. I am a clinician and my field of practice touches on the behavioral sciences. This was not a case of chronic depression which, I suggest, would place this situation on a very different category.

Again and again, the Lord promises that no matter how difficult and hostile this life becomes and strained our existence, He will be with us every step of the way. To disbelieve the words of God is to call Him a liar and to reject His stretched out hand; it is to say “I do not believe you, Lord”. Here are but a few of His promises to those that love the Lord and are called by His name:

“So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.” Isa. 41:10. “You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you.” Isa. 26:3. “But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint”. Isa. 40:31. “The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.” Deut. 31:8.
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16:33. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Mat. 11:28-29. “Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.” James 1:2-3.

I submit that if it is true that the Spirit of Lord dwells in us, if we have been washed by the blood of the Lamb and brought into the family of God, chosen from before the foundations of the earth to receive the covenant and endowment in which we stand, appointed to rule with Him in the house of the Lord forever, if we are truly rooted and grounded in the Love of Christ by the Gospel and Priesthood that bears His name; we would not let go. He will not let us go. Because amid darkness, our thoughts would be turned to Him, and the promises He has made to us. And His thoughts will be our thoughts and our will His will. Here is a scripture for reflection:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1John 2:19

I leave you with the words of the Lord to Joseph:
If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;
If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;
And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.
The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?
Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. D&C 122

[Raingirl]

You seem to be proud of yourself for unrighteously passing judgment on people in their profound grief and pain. And obviously have no qualms about exploiting someone else’s tragedy for your own self-righteous (imaginary) gain. 

[Senator]

5 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

You seem to be proud of yourself for unrighteously passing judgment on people in their profound grief and pain. And obviously have no qualms about exploiting someone else’s tragedy for your own self-righteous (imaginary) gain. 

Daaamn, girl!

Straight for the jugular....

[ttribe]

What an absolutely disgustingly inappropriate post in the aftermath of a suicide, not to mention during Suicide Awareness Week.

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

I can think of only 2 reasons why people kill themselves.  Either despair or impatience.  They either feel so bad about their life or their situation in life that they want to end it all, or they have faith that their life will be better on the other side of the veil and they don't want to wait for a natural death.  Both reasons are not good reasons for people choosing to end one's mortal life.  We're supposed to tough it out and learn from all of our experiences. To kill ourselves robs us of learning from some of them. 

I feel sad about this, but I'm not in despair, and I believe our Savior will help all of us learn and grow from this experience. Even those who are now dead can still learn and grow from their experiences.

You have no idea what it's like to reach that level of despair (I do). A person in that degree of pain is incapable of making rational choices and "toughing it out." Depression and suicide don't work that way. All the person can think about is the pain and how to end it. If there is a God, only he can judge these things. To pronounce one way or another on such a situation shows a complete lack of perspective and a high level of arrogance.

Edited September 7, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Rain]

57 minutes ago, Islander said:

My apologies for the long post ut it could not be helped. 
Unfortunately, a member of our ward committed suicide a few days ago. The memorial service was this past Saturday. A man of 40, left behind his pregnant wife and 3 children. I can not begin to imagine the devastation and multi-generational impact of his death. It is a loss and event that is hard to quantify in terms of the chaos, grief and long-term impact. The family is shaken to its core, as anyone can imagine.

The service was very well attended. They have lots of family in the community as well as out of state. It was moving and, I believe, provided some comfort and reassurance to the family amid their suffering. I rather not delve into the potential reasons for the suicide since there is still a law enforcement inquiry ongoing. For the purposes of the post, I don’t believe it matters.
What stroke me in a perplexing way was the many, many instances in the service that participants made mention of “the family being reunited across the veil”. And how “he will be watching and waiting for his family from beyond the veil.”  

I understand that the family is in desperate need of support and affirmation about the future. I understand that it is very human to attempt to mitigate profound pain and despair; to explain the unexplainable and bring some measure of peace to their tormented hearts. But must resort to lies, fabrications and magical thinking?

 

57 minutes ago, Islander said:

Or should we rely on the promises of the Lord, His unfailing love and steadfast arm to uphold and provide in times of dread and need?

Yes, we should and that's why we treat those who pass with grace because in the end we really have no idea how God will judge the person.  Meanwhile since President Kimball said it is usually through others that God meets our needs I'm ok if people try to comfort each other even IF it's not exactly the way God would do it.

57 minutes ago, Islander said:

Should we offer by way of consolation words that are clearly outside of what the Lord has revealed and spoken?
It is the Lord our God the Author of all life. It is His Gift and we were created in His image and for His glory. He is the ONLY ONE that can determine when and how we leave this world.  “My times are in your hands” (Psalm 31:15). God is the giver of life. “He gives, and He takes away” (Job 1:21) Suicide, the taking of one’s own life, is ungodly because it rejects God’s gift of life. No man or woman should presume to take God’s authority upon themselves to end his or her own life. I am a clinician and my field of practice touches on the behavioral sciences. This was not a case of chronic depression which, I suggest, would place this situation on a very different category.

Again and again, the Lord promises that no matter how difficult and hostile this life becomes and strained our existence, He will be with us every step of the way. To disbelieve the words of God is to call Him a liar and to reject His stretched out hand; it is to say “I do not believe you, Lord”. Here are but a few of His promises to those that love the Lord and are called by His name:

“So do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.” Isa. 41:10. “You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you.” Isa. 26:3. “But those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint”. Isa. 40:31. “The LORD himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged.” Deut. 31:8.
“I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.” John 16:33. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Mat. 11:28-29. “Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance.” James 1:2-3.

I submit that if it is true that the Spirit of Lord dwells in us, if we have been washed by the blood of the Lamb and brought into the family of God, chosen from before the foundations of the earth to receive the covenant and endowment in which we stand, appointed to rule with Him in the house of the Lord forever, if we are truly rooted and grounded in the Love of Christ by the Gospel and Priesthood that bears His name; we would not let go. He will not let us go. Because amid darkness, our thoughts would be turned to Him, and the promises He has made to us. And His thoughts will be our thoughts and our will His will. Here is a scripture for reflection:

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1John 2:19

I leave you with the words of the Lord to Joseph:
If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;
If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;
And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.
The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?
Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever. D&C 122

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Jim Dandy said:

Actually, I have felt that level of despair.  Several times in my life.  You don't know what I have experienced and it is arrogant for you to presume you do.  Next time try asking me about what I have experienced.

The only thing we can't judge correctly in this situation is what kind of person that person was, and still is.  We shouldn't say he is or was a bad person.  He did make a bad decision by choosing to kill himself, but we all have made bad decisions.

I still feel sad for the man, and for those who loved him and will miss him.  I wish he had chosen to stick around and get through whatever challenging situation he was going through.  Some of us could have probably helped him, and his family.

As it is now all we can do is whatever good we can do now.  The past is gone and there is nothing any of us can do to change what is now in the past.

I’m surprised a survivor of a suicide attempt would tell people to “tough it out.” Shockingly bad advice. 

[Meadowchik]

You don't know. 

[Bernard Gui]

We cannot determine what is going on in the mind of another person that would lead him/her to taking such a drastic final step. Only God can know this.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jim Dandy said:

In my vernacular the only 2 choices left on the table at that level of despair are "tough it out" or "yes I'm going to do it, now I just need to actually kill myself".

You're still here so apparently you did what I would call "tough it out" too.  

Nah, I got a 3-day stay in a psych hospital and some medication and therapy. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jim Dandy said:

And you are no longer seriously thinking about killing yourself, I hope.  Good decision to tough it out from then until now.

That's not what happened. I didn't just decide to tough it out. That's absurd.

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

You might want to read what I have read about Wittgenstein and language games.  What you think of as "toughing it out" isn't necessarily what I think of as "toughing it out".  I did decide to "tough it out" by continuing to live even in very hard times, for me.

Nothing absurd about it.

Esoteric word games in this context are imo ungenerous and frankly self-absorbed poor communication.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m surprised a survivor of a suicide attempt would tell people to “tough it out.” Shockingly bad advice. 

Using simple logic, would I be correct in deducing that you believe the better advice would be to tell a deeply depressed person to not “tough it out” and opt instead to go ahead and commit suicide? If I’ve deduced incorrectly, what would be good advice that wouldn’t include strong encouragement to hold and not commit suicide?

Edited September 7, 2022 by teddyaware

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Using simple logic, would I be I correct in deducing that you believe the better advice would be to tell a deeply depressed person to not “tough it out” and opt instead to go ahead and commit suicide? If I’ve deduced incorrectly, what would be good advice that wouldn’t include strong encouragement to hold and not commit suicide?

That's the worst logic I've heard in a long time. This thread really makes me despair for humanity. 

[Meadowchik]

3 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Using simple logic, would I be I correct in deducing that you believe the better advice would be to tell a deeply depressed person to not “tough it out” and opt instead to go ahead and commit suicide? If I’ve deduced incorrectly, what would be good advice that wouldn’t include strong encouragement to hold and not commit suicide?

Good grief, there are more than two options. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Good grief, there are more than two options. 

You find a man by the side of the road with a javelin through his chest. Rather than call an ambulance, you say, "You have two choices: tough it out, or just die."

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

Communication and language games RE:Wittgenstein refers to how words are used and understood by the people using those words even when those people understand the words differently.  The point should be to understand what is meant by those words.

As I said, in my hard times when I felt despair and was contemplating killing myself, my 2 choices as I then saw them were to either kill myself or tough it out by going through those hard times.   

Then you chimed in to say you thought toughing it out was an absurd idea and that nobody who ever contemplated committing suicide would ever think of "toughing it out".  I'm glad I didn't talk to you when I thought about killing myself.

No one said that. I'm assuming Wittgenstein's word games don't include making stuff up. This is the most disturbing thread I've read in years. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

You have no idea what it's like to reach that level of despair (I do). A person in that degree of pain is incapable of making rational choices and "toughing it out." Depression and suicide don't work that way. All the person can think about is the pain and how to end it. If there is a God, only he can judge these things. To pronounce one way or another on such a situation shows a complete lack of perspective and a high level of arrogance.

One of my friends once described it as feeling as though you are trapped on the top floor of a burning building, unable to escape. If the only choices you can see are between suffering a slow, horrible, agonizing death or voluntarily jumping out a window and ending things immediately, you can maybe understand why some people might decide go with the latter. It isn't that they want to die; it's just that they can't see any other way possible to escape the pain.

I could never, in a million years, be able to bring myself to judge someone who has had to live with that kind of pain and suffering. And for those who are unable to withhold judgement, I'm happy to remind them the Lord has promised that he will judge us with the same judgement that we meet out upon others.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Amulek

[teddyaware]

38 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's the worst logic I've heard in a long time. This thread really makes me despair for humanity. 

Then why don’t you explain yourself? What other options are there other than saying hang on and don’t commit suicide or don’t bother to hang on and do commit suicide? And would you also please explicitly explain to me how you find my logic faulty? I’m thinking it’s possible that my logic is actually spot-on, and you know it, so you gave a glib, non-responsive answer because you know there is no third option.

Edited September 7, 2022 by teddyaware

[jkwilliams]

24 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

How about saying "Hang on!  I called an ambulance and they'll be here very soon!" or "Hang on! I'll take you to the hospital myself!  My pickup truck is right here and I know how to drive very fast!"

In my vernacular "Hang on!" would mean pretty much the same thing I would be saying if I was instead saying "Tough it out!"  Rather than to tell the guy with a javelin to just go ahead and die.,

I appreciate the clarification, as that’s what should happen. Hang on, help is coming! is much different from Tough it out! In my case, my wife took me to the ER, and I got help.

[teddyaware]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I appreciate the clarification, as that’s what should happen. Hang on, help is coming! is much different from Tough it out! In my case, my wife took me to the ER, and I got help.

He didn’t say “tough it out on you own without seeking any help.” There are surely millions of people who have bravely battled through a multitude of life’s difficulties while simultaneously also seeking help from others. Why would someone jump to the conclusion that the expression “toughing it out” (i.e. not giving up) wouldn’t also include the possibility of seeking outside help? It’s like you’re bending over backward to be contrarian. 

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

He didn’t say “tough it out on you own without seeking any help.” There are surely millions of people who have bravely battled through a multitude of life’s difficulties while simultaneously also seeking help from others. Why would someone jump to the conclusion that the expression “toughing it out” (i.e. not giving up) wouldn’t also include the possibility of seeking outside help? It’s like you’re bending over backward to be contrarian. 

So, now I’m being criticized for agreeing with his revised statements. Yup, I guess that means I’m a contrarian. Sheesh. 

[ttribe]

52 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Then why don’t you explain yourself? What other options are there other than saying hang on and don’t commit suicide or don’t bother to hang on and do commit suicide? And would you also please explicitly explain to me how you find my logic faulty? I’m thinking it’s possible that my logic is actually spot-on, and you know it, so you gave a glib, non-responsive answer because you know there is no third option.

Given your long history of posts on this board wherein you show no apparent evidence of having a working understanding of empathy, I can safely say that you are the least qualified member of this board to be commenting on this issue.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jim Dandy said:

I'm glad she did, and I imagine she was probably saying something like "Hang on! or "Tough it out" as she did what she did, and as you did what you did, which somehow didn't result in you killing yourself, apparently.

I like what often results in communication.  I share a thought and you share a thought and then by continuing to communicate with each other we both gradually begin to understand each other.  We still may not agree but I think understanding is wonderful. 

I think we do agree, actually. We just misunderstood each other. And for the record, I am never glib or contrarian about depression and suicide. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Jim Dandy said:

Okay, I'll resist the urge to ask what you mean by saying you are never glib or contrarian and instead I will simply believe you believe you never are glib or contrarian about depression and suicide. 

I’m always glib and contrarian, just not about that.