The lies we tell ourselves (sorry, a bit of a long read)

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

28 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Sometimes all you need is for someone to give you a different perspective, not coddle you like a little baby. 

Maybe take a break from this thread, and troll another one? 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:30 AM, Islander said:

But must resort to lies, fabrications and magical thinking?

I must say I always enjoy a chuckle when one religious person describes another sincere believers belief as “lies, fabrications, and magical thinking”

[Vanguard]

On 9/7/2022 at 1:08 PM, jkwilliams said:

You find a man by the side of the road with a javelin through his chest. Rather than call an ambulance, you say, "You have two choices: tough it out, or just die."

That reminds me of an accident I had been involved in ~30 years ago where I rear-ended a car at a stop sign. I hit the car pretty good and rammed my face into the steering column in the process. An onlooker rushed to my aid exclaiming "Sh*t happens! That's life! You're going to make this!" or some such. It actually helped me keep my focus and sanity. She was definitely trying to summon up some inner desire to get through. : )

[Jerry Atric]

41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Getting psychiatric help is not coddling anyone like a little baby. That is just completely messed up. 

The mom had the kid all screwed up. He had seen numerous therapist, tried numerous medications, nothing was working for his depression. Psychiatric help isn't always the answer. 

[Vanguard]

7 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

Yes that could and I think should be included in any conversation someone has with someone who is seriously considering killing himself or herself.  I don't recommend drive-by comments by anyone who doesn't have time for anything but a short statement.  My "tough it out" and "Hang on!" statements in quotation marks were not intended to represent short all-inclusive conversations wherein those statements would be the only words uttered.  Those were meant to represent the themes of the statements involved in conversations with people seriously considering suicide.  I might even sing them a song if I thought that might help them to get in a more positive mood.  Or play a song for them.  Something like this, maybe: 

 

Now I'm channeling something deep inside! I LOVE this song - 

 

[Calm]

Jim, If you dropped the “tough it out” and just went with “hang on”, which if I understand you correctly conveys your idea sufficiently, I wouldn’t be disagreeing with you that much.  There are so many connotations attached to “tough it out” that such can too easily be misinterpreted by someone whose thinking is already distorted (which is how they can consider suicide as a logical response in our culture).  In discussions people should ask for clarification, but someone who is sick, either in body or soul, you are in essence offering water to a very thirsty, injured person who isn’t sure they even want to drink and to expect them to be the ones who filter it for purity before drinking, when they are injured isn’t an effective approach.

If you (speaking generally) intend to take on the responsibility of caring for someone thinking of killing themselves, I really admire you because it is a risk for you as well as them.  I also think because it is a massive risk, if you refuse to take professional counsel where you can and just assume you know best (again speaking generally) already and don’t try to better prepare yourself for the effort, that is stupid and sinful, putting one’s own pride as more value than ensuring you offer the best help possible that you can.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Calm

[Jerry Atric]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

So explain to me how telling someone nothing is going to change, so they might as well just keep running in place till they keel over naturally rather than speeding up the process is going to help.  Serious question.  What makes this work for some men?

Because sometimes life isn't what you want it to be. A lot of people today are depressed because they were never taught about failure. Most people are deathly afraid of failure. They were raised what I like to call trophy children. Their parents spent years telling them all they had to do is show up and that was good enough. Their parents spent 99.9% of the time telling them how special they are, how they're always right. Their parents gave them everything they ever wanted and never made them work for it. 

One of the worst things you can do to a young man/boy is give him a trophy for just showing up, for just being on a team. Men need to fail, and fail hard when they're young. Men need to understand failure is good. Men need to learn that failure is something you'll encounter for the rest of your life and failure is a good thing. Parents don't teach that anymore and that's why so many young men are confused and also scared to express what they feel inside. They see failure as weakness. They don't want you disappoint so they keep everything bottled up inside and they start hating life. Men have become soft and it's taking a toll on us. 

[jkwilliams]

I can relate to this song Brian Wilson wrote when he was suicidal. I have learned to distinguish between thoughts of giving up and making plans for action. I have the former all the time, but the latter haven’t happened in 15 years. 

 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because sometimes life isn't what you want it to be. A lot of people today are depressed because they were never taught about failure. Most people are deathly afraid of failure. They were raised what I like to call trophy children. Their parents spent years telling them all they had to do is show up and that was good enough. Their parents spent 99.9% of the time telling them how special they are, how they're always right. Their parents gave them everything they ever wanted and never made them work for it. 

One of the worst things you can do to a young man/boy is give him a trophy for just showing up, for just being on a team. Men need to fail, and fail hard when they're young. Men need to understand failure is good. Men need to learn that failure is something you'll encounter for the rest of your life and failure is a good thing. Parents don't teach that anymore and that's why so many young men are confused and also scared to express what they feel inside. They see failure as weakness. They don't want you disappoint so they keep everything bottled up inside and they start hating life. Men have become soft and it's taking a toll on us. 

So teaching men that all they have to look forward to is failure is a counter to telling them there is only success?  Doesn’t sound all that effective to me.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Jim Dandy said:

Giving people like that the idea that they need to "tough it out" as they continue to look for love from someone else, because it isn't always easy and may take a while to find a good partner, is a positive endeavor. 

I agree.  But you aren’t just telling them to tough it out in that case.  You are telling them there is hope for better things.

[Jerry Atric]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

So teaching men that all they have to look forward to is failure is a counter to telling them there is only success?  Doesn’t sound all that effective to me.

It's not one or the other. My point is, parents today only teach success and that's detrimental to a young man's mental health. Learning how to fail gracefully at an early age is key for a young man's well being. 

[Peacefully]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

 

I think this increases the probability of more suicides.

Sadly, I agree. Anyone with the attitude of Islander and Jerry Atric can stay away from my family and me if we are ever in these circumstances. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Peacefully

[Jerry Atric]

9 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Sadly, I agree. Anyone with the attitude of Islander and Jerry Atric can stay away from my family and me if we are ever in these circumstances. 

Fine with me. Cats are evil!

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

58 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because sometimes life isn't what you want it to be. A lot of people today are depressed because they were never taught about failure. Most people are deathly afraid of failure. They were raised what I like to call trophy children. Their parents spent years telling them all they had to do is show up and that was good enough. Their parents spent 99.9% of the time telling them how special they are, how they're always right. Their parents gave them everything they ever wanted and never made them work for it. 

One of the worst things you can do to a young man/boy is give him a trophy for just showing up, for just being on a team. Men need to fail, and fail hard when they're young. Men need to understand failure is good. Men need to learn that failure is something you'll encounter for the rest of your life and failure is a good thing. Parents don't teach that anymore and that's why so many young men are confused and also scared to express what they feel inside. They see failure as weakness. They don't want you disappoint so they keep everything bottled up inside and they start hating life. Men have become soft and it's taking a toll on us. 

Paragraph #1, very simple remarks, for very complex problems. Also, 99.9% of parents have done this to those you describe? You would need to live 1,000 years without stopping almost anywhere, and you still would not meet these 99.9% of parents you ascribe this too. 
 

Paragraph #2, oh why bother! 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Paragraph #1, very simple remarks, for very complex problems. Also, 99.9% of parents have done this to those you describe? You would need to live 1,000 years without stopping almost anywhere, and you still would not meet these 99.9% of parents you ascribe this too. 
 

Paragraph #2, oh why bother! 

Love your responses here, Bill.  Out of points again, but plan on repping you when I get more.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Jerry Atric said:

Because sometimes life isn't what you want it to be. A lot of people today are depressed because they were never taught about failure. Most people are deathly afraid of failure. They were raised what I like to call trophy children. Their parents spent years telling them all they had to do is show up and that was good enough. Their parents spent 99.9% of the time telling them how special they are, how they're always right. Their parents gave them everything they ever wanted and never made them work for it. 

One of the worst things you can do to a young man/boy is give him a trophy for just showing up, for just being on a team. Men need to fail, and fail hard when they're young. Men need to understand failure is good. Men need to learn that failure is something you'll encounter for the rest of your life and failure is a good thing. Parents don't teach that anymore and that's why so many young men are confused and also scared to express what they feel inside. They see failure as weakness. They don't want you disappoint so they keep everything bottled up inside and they start hating life. Men have become soft and it's taking a toll on us. 

The generation that got a participation trophy for just being born in a fortunate generation sure love to lecture others about the dangers of participation trophies. Also, kids aren’t stupid. They know what a participation trophy is and that it is nothing more than a reminder of having fun doing something. They know what it means to win and lose. The rising generation has more experience with losing than they know what to do with.

Then toxic masculinity about how weak young guys are. “Be hypermasculine!” No wonder so many guys are going non-binary on gender.

[Jerry Atric]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

The rising generation has more experience with losing than they know what to do with

Oh boy! What scares me is you're actually serious. 

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, Jerry Atric said:

Oh boy! What scares me is you're actually serious. 

I am not a part of the rising generation if you think this is some kind of tough guy talk.

It is an acknowledgement that their economic prospects are low, their world is more unstable, and their opportunities more limited in many ways. Plus we bequeathed them a full-blown impending disaster that they get to wrestle with.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:15 PM, Jim Dandy said:

Conveying to someone how we all need to "tough it out" sometimes should be part of a conversation to help someone develop a more positive perspective.  Things do get hard sometimes.  

Two things…

1) You are seeking to soften you position with the quote I included.

2) When my wife was truly depressed, not eating, and felt herself to be a burden, shortly before I left the Army. Her Mother made it worse, when she called asking if it was drugs. I explained to her, don’t let me hear from you for a very long time. My Mama when I took my wife to my Mama and Daddy’s house, for the next two weeks, until I got out of the Army. Upon seeing my wife, she excused herself, went into the kitchen. When I went out to see what she was doing, she was weeping uncontrollably, as my wife weighed only 85lbs  Once my Mama got her emotions under control, she spent the next three months saving the life of my wife. As far as I was concerned, I was acting much like you, saying things like, “snap out of it”, or “get a grip”, and toughen up”. Then due to my health, and after a serious car crash, my depression got worse, I became very depressed, and I apologized to her for years. True depression is not something that you, “snap out of”, or many of your other insensitive comments listed above. I truly pray that you never find out what true depression is like. My health has gone on so long, about 7-8 weeks ago, I almost died. During my entire stay in the hospital, where neither my doctors, nor I, were sure I would ever go home. Not once, did my wife say, “snap out of it”, because of my mini-depression, which continues as I spend almost everyday, and every hour in bed. 

[Tacenda]

On 9/8/2022 at 3:30 PM, Jerry Atric said:

It's not one or the other. My point is, parents today only teach success and that's detrimental to a young man's mental health. Learning how to fail gracefully at an early age is key for a young man's well being. 

I see where you're coming from. I hope I'm not guilty of doing these things with my children. And I can't stand it when I'm in a class sub'g and the teacher wants me to give out awards or tickets for good behavior. I do hand them out, but I tend to think they should do it because it's the right thing to do instead of just for a ticket. But maybe there's a happy balance.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Two things…

1) You are seeking to soften you position with the quote I included.

2) When my wife was truly depressed, not eating, and felt herself to be a burden, shortly before I left the Army. Her Mother made it worse, when she called asking if it was drugs. I explained to her, don’t let me hear from you for a very long time. My Mama when I took my wife to my Mama and Daddy’s house, for the next two weeks, until I got out of the Army. Upon seeing my wife, she excused herself, went into the kitchen. When I went out to see what she was doing, she was weeping uncontrollably, as my wife weighed only 85lbs  Once my Mama got her emotions under control, she spent the next three months saving the life of my wife. As far as I was concerned, I was acting much like you, saying things like, “snap out of it”, or “get a grip”, and toughen up”. Then due to my health, and after a serious car crash, my depression got worse, I became very depressed, and I apologized to her for years. True depression is not something that you, “snap out of”, or many of your other insensitive comments listed above. I truly pray that you never find out what true depression is like. My health has gone on so long, about 7-8 weeks ago, I almost died. During my entire stay in the hospital, where neither my doctors, nor I, were sure I would ever go home. Not once, did my wife say, “snap out of it”, because of my mini-depression, which continues as I spend almost everyday, and every hour in bed. 

Life is really fragile, we all could be rolling along just fine, and boom something takes away that security and then the house of cards come crashing down. And the depression is inescapable. No matter how one tries to "snap out of it", they can't. And often times it's chemical, and very difficult to treat. For me I haven't suffered like I know many do, but do have days that I've held on until another day before wanting it all to end, because most likely things do get better. But for others, it goes for a long period of time with no relief. Most people like yourself, can't comprehend it until they've gone through it themselves. I'm sure your wife totally understands, and appreciates your empathy! 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 hours ago, Jim Dandy said:

Papa, have you ever had anyone misunderstand what you were saying?  My point was that there are times when we should encourage people to "hang on" and "tough it out" when they are going through very hard times in their life.  The flip side is also true,  in that there are also other times when we should NOT tell people to hang on or to tough it out during hard times.  There are times to let go, and there are also times to hang on.  We just went through Ecclesiastes in Sunday School so you should have been freshly made aware that there is a time for everything under the sun. A time to be sad and a time to be angry,  A time to have patience and a time to do what needs to be done.

I hope your wife is going through better times now.  Life does get very hard for all of us at some times in our lives and we all just need to hang on as well as we can when we are going through those hard times in our lives rather than kill ourselves. 

I get misunderstood all the time, well most of the time. Jim, you seem to be walking back, or softening you early comments, which is great. Some were very harsh, and seemed to lack compassion for those who are truly suffering. This illness of depression can be awful, but even more tragic, terminal. In my 65+ years, I have had such awful illness, that it has led to depression. In fact, you couldn’t know,  it 7 weeks ago, I almost died. Had my wife not called an ambulance, the doctors said I would have died. Two weeks ago Sunday, my wife found me lying on the bed, slipping into a diabetic coma. So for some it is hard to “just get over it”, or “snap out of it”, or any of your other advices. Just tread lightly, and speak kindly. We are a forgiving group. Kindness is a powerful medicine, would you agree? 

[Hamba Tuhan]

I met with a member in his home last night (and the night before). He's an elderly convert of just a few years, and he lost his wife just a few months ago. She had two children from an earlier marriage, neither of them members. One of them, the stepson, hanged himself at home last week. He had no relationship with his stepfather, but this has been devastating to his sister. She asked if she could speak with me last night.

Her first question was how we as a faith community feel about suicide. I assured her that we leave all judgement up to the Lord, who a) fully understands the intricacies of each person's individual situation, b) is far more merciful than any of us, and c) has plans in place to bless each of us with every blessing that He can before the end comes. There is and can be no other answer, and consequently it was precisely what she needed to hear.

Like her brother, this woman is completely non-religious, but she then asked if there was some kind of a 'blessing for the dead' we could provide. Having no religious background, she didn't really know what she was asking for, but it was important that she was asking for it! There will be no funeral; instead, they'll hold an informal memorial service at the lake shore after the cremation, and I'll offer a prayer at that. In addition, they are planning to plant a tree/bush at one of the houses, and the ashes will be buried at the roots of that. Having consulted the Handbook already, I offered to dedicate that as the brother's final resting place, and this will probably happen as well.

Truth is good ... something young Joseph Smith seems to have started comprehending from the untruths spoken to his family following the death of his unbaptised brother.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I met with a member in his home last night (and the night before). He's an elderly convert of just a few years, and he lost his wife just a few months ago. She had two children from an earlier marriage, neither of them members. One of them, the stepson, hanged himself at home last week. He had no relationship with his stepfather, but this has been devastating to his sister. She asked if she could speak with me last night.

Her first question was how we as a faith community feel about suicide. I assured her that we leave all judgement up to the Lord, who a) fully understands the intricacies of each person's individual situation, b) is far more merciful than any of us, and c) has plans in place to bless each of us with every blessing that He can before the end comes. There is and can be no other answer, and consequently it was precisely what she needed to hear.

Like her brother, this woman is completely non-religious, but she then asked if there was some kind of a 'blessing for the dead' we could provide. Having no religious background, she didn't really know what she was asking for, but it was important that she was asking for it! There will be no funeral; instead, they'll hold an informal memorial service at the lake shore after the cremation, and I'll offer a prayer at that. In addition, they are planning to plant a tree/bush at one of the houses, and the ashes will be buried at the roots of that. Having consulted the Handbook already, I offered to dedicate that as the brother's final resting place, and this will probably happen as well.

Truth is good ... something young Joseph Smith seems to have started comprehending from the untruths spoken to his family following the death of his unbaptised brother.

Love it! I believe there's a reason Joseph put that out of families' minds that someone is going to hell if they're not baptized and love that part of the gospel!  And now with family members that commit suicide we've had excellent talks in general conference that assures the families that heavenly father is aware of their loved ones' reasons for and loves them no matter what and love how those talks help the saints continue to alleviate those fears. What a good man you are and knowing the right words to say and helping with the memorial! I know I show disbelief in the church but the service in the church is one where I will always take that part of my faith with me and cherish it. I know there are cases where members drop the ball, but we all don't realize what each other is going through. And most of the time members are there for so many. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

We've had excellent talks in general conference that assures the families that heavenly father is aware of their loved ones' reasons for and loves them no matter what and love how those talks help the saints continue to alleviate those fears. What a good man you are and knowing the right words to say and helping with the memorial!

How grateful we should be for prophets to teach us truth! I wouldn't even know what the 'right words' might be without access to revealed doctrines.