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More Cultural and Moral Decay


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1 hour ago, blackstrap said:

Just another example of men doing something women do... but with more flair ... and camp. (runs for cover !)

Looking like a drag queen as a man = "He's so good at makeup!"

Looking like a drag queen as a woman = "Oh my goodness, how is she so bad at makeup."

:lol:

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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

I was going to say that drag in itself doesn't seem to indicate moral or cultural decadence.

It doesn't?  Even when the performers have sexually provocative stage names like "Ana Lee Kage" ("an*l leakage") and "Jenna Tailia" ("genitalia")?

Plus, it looks like this ad was submitted for distribution by BYU to incoming students.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

It's real. Again, what is the big deal?

I'm working today, and didn't get time to search it out. I don't know, maybe I need to get some soul searching done. Also, I thought it was for young students not college. So I think it's fine! But for the very young, they wouldn't quite get the costumes as much as they would other characters.

Edited by Tacenda
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7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It doesn't?  Even when the performers have sexually provocative stage names like "Ana Lee Kage" ("an*l leakage") and "Jenna Tailia" ("genitalia")?

Plus, it looks like this ad was submitted for distribution by BYU to incoming students.

Thanks,

-Smac

Jenna Talia is clever and funny. The other is inappropriate for kids and a bit nauseating. Given that BYU threw out all LGBTQ materials given by outside groups, I very much doubt they distributed it. 

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm neutral on it.  There is no way for me to righteously judge them individually, and I've been commanded not to judge unrighteously.  And that's what I would be doing if I condemned them.

Does the following testimony from the Apostle Paul help your mind to more finely tune what is  unacceptable, damning behavior in the eyes of God? Or is this just another one of those dismissible quotes from a supposed spiritually unenlightened knuckle dragger? And this in spite of the fact that that he personally encountered Christ several times and was even transported to the highest heaven where he saw and heard things so sacred and spiritually profound that he was forbidden to communicate them to any man?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.                
 
(1 Corinthians 6)

 

 


 

Edited by teddyaware
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37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Jenna Talia is clever and funny.

Do you think an ad for a drag show with a performer with this name is something that BYU should be distributing to its incoming students on campus?

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The other is inappropriate for kids and a bit nauseating.

So "inappropriate for kids and a bit nauseating," yet you also seemed to criticize other people's objections ("I guess some people can't imagine a 'family friendly' drag show. *shrug*").

Personally, I don't see how any drag show can be reasonably characterized as "Family-Friendly" and appropriate for "All Ages."  See, e.g., here:

Quote
Why drag queen performances are not appropriate for children
By Debra Soh | June 27, 2022 06:00 AM
 

Last week, the Washington Post ran  a column  in defense of Drag Queen Story Hour. The issue of whether drag performances are harmful or wholesome has been hotly debated, with politicians including Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis proposing laws to ban them for child audiences.

Let’s be clear, the injection of drag queens into children’s consciousnesses goes beyond innocently sitting in a classroom reading storybooks. Kids are being brought to performances that are marketed as kid-friendly, despite being, in many cases, sexually explicit. For  example , at an event in Dallas, Texas, earlier this month, drag queens accepted cash tips from young children while writhing suggestively in front of a particularly memorable neon sign that read, "It’s not gonna lick itself." An additional extension of this, as  I’ve written  before, is children themselves partaking in drag and performing for adult audiences.

As someone who grew up in the gay community with many drag queens as friends, I don’t think it’s appropriate for kids to be exposed to any of this any more than a child should be taken to a strip club or restaurant chain that is known for revealing staff uniforms.

 

I agree with this.  Drag shows are inherently sexualized and provocative, akin to sexually-suggestive Burlesque Shows, and not that far removed from strip clubs either.

Quote

Those defending drag shows as harmless entertainment have framed critics as driven by anti-gay sentiments.

Yep.  And the attempt at gaslighting - at shutting down criticism (of drag shows for kids, drag queen story hour at libraries, etc.) by characterizing detractors as haters and bigots - doesn't seem to be working (and not for lack of trying).

Quote

But calling out the grooming aspect of this behavior has nothing to do with drag queens being gay.

Yep.  "Grooming."  That is the pervy part of this.  As permissive and sexualized and "tolerant" as our society has become, deliberately exposing small children to highly-sexualized displays is grooming behavior.  

Quote

If anything, gay people have long fought negative and false stereotypes about being sexual predators, and the last thing activists should want to do is resurface those fears.

You would think that, but then along comes RaYnbow Coalition and seemingly ties gay people at the hip to an event that is sexualizing and grooming children.

Quote

If these were instead women dancing provocatively, giving lap dances, and removing their clothing in front of child onlookers, I’m certain staff and fellow audience members would be disgusted and appalled. The dancers would surely be asked to leave, and there is a high probability that Child Protective Services would be called on parents, as well.

Yep.  And yet the RaYnbow Coalition is inviting BYU students and Latter-day Saint families to participate in this highly sexualized stuff.

Quote

Encouraging children to touch strangers in areas of the body that are usually covered by undergarments and desensitizing kids to overt depictions of adult sexuality is dangerous territory. The reasons for concern are laid bare in recent  news  of a Pennsylvania drag queen arrested on child pornography charges.

Yep.  And yet the RaYnbow Coalition...

Quote

A child is not a prop to be used for political statements or for showing off that one is open-minded and "hip." The fact that some parents see no issue and support this trend is where the focus of discussion should be.

A very good point.

BYU should be commended for refusing to promote an activity calculated toward the sexualization and grooming of children.

37 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Given that BYU threw out all LGBTQ materials given by outside groups, I very much doubt they distributed it. 

That's the point.  BYU threw out the materials rather than distributing them.  

BYU is now being excoriated for not distributing to its incoming students on campus an ad for a drag show featuring performers with sexually provocative stage names like "Ana Lee Kage" and "Jenna Tailia."

Thanks,

-Smac

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26 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Does the following testimony from the Apostle Paul help your mind to more finely tune what is  unacceptable, damning behavior in the eyes of God? Or is this just another one of those dismissible quotes from a supposed spiritually unenlightened knuckle dragger? And this in spite of the fact that that he personally encountered Christ several times and was even transported to the highest heaven where he saw and heard things so sacred and spiritually profound that he was forbidden to communicate them to any man?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.                
 
(1 Corinthians 6)

 

 


 

and what of repentance? If you actually read the scriptures you would know the Apostle Paul wrote this BEFORE he had a vision of Heaven. 

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7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

That's the point.  BYU threw out the materials rather than distributing them.  

BYU is now being excoriated for not distributing to its incoming students on campus an ad for a drag show featuring performers with sexually provocative stage names like "Ana Lee Kage" and "Jenna Tailia."

Thanks,

-Smac

Is that the point?

Is the OP about why BYU shouldn’t be maligned for not including the flyer?

I didn’t get that from the OP at all. 

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9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yep.  "Grooming."  That is the pervy part of this.  As permissive and sexualized and "tolerant" as our society has become, deliberately exposing small children to highly-sexualized displays is grooming behavior.  

It is wrong, yes. But it is not grooming. Grooming is when an adult befriends a child for the purposes of gaining trust and access in order to commit CSA. Google "grooming definition"

The use of the grooming in these situations is wrong and very annoying.

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33 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Does the following testimony from the Apostle Paul help your mind to more finely tune what is  unacceptable, damning behavior in the eyes of God? Or is this just another one of those dismissible quotes from a supposed spiritually unenlightened knuckle dragger? And this in spite of the fact that that he personally encountered Christ several times and was even transported to the highest heaven where he saw and heard things so sacred and spiritually profound that he was forbidden to communicate them to any man?

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.                
 
(1 Corinthians 6)

 

 


 

You always sound so angry.

FOX News fan? ;) 

You seem to be setting Paul up as the ultimate authority here. That's a bold choice. I definitely wouldn't call him a "knuckle dragger" like you did, but he was certainly a product of his time and environment. He also believed that the end of days was imminent. Or immediate (for those in Rio Linda) so his teachings should be viewed in that prism. Of course that didn't turn out to be correct but I'm sure he's 100% on everything else.

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20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

BYU is now being excoriated for not distributing to its incoming students on campus an ad for a drag show featuring performers with sexually provocative stage names like "Ana Lee Kage" and "Jenna Tailia."

Where is this excoriation happening?

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16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Do you think an ad for a drag show with a performer with this name is something that BYU should be distributing to its incoming students on campus?

So "inappropriate for kids and a bit nauseating," yet you also seemed to criticize other people's objections ("I guess some people can't imagine a 'family friendly' drag show. *shrug*").

Personally, I don't see how any drag show can be reasonably characterized as "Family-Friendly" and appropriate for "All Ages."  See, e.g., here:

I agree with this.  Drag shows are inherently sexualized and provocative, akin to sexually-suggestive Burlesque Shows, and not that far removed from strip clubs either.

Yep.  And the attempt at gaslighting - at shutting down criticism (of drag shows for kids, drag queen story hour at libraries, etc.) by characterizing detractors as haters and bigots - doesn't seem to be working (and not for lack of trying).

Yep.  "Grooming."  That is the pervy part of this.  As permissive and sexualized and "tolerant" as our society has become, deliberately exposing small children to highly-sexualized displays is grooming behavior.  

You would think that, but then along comes RaYnbow Coalition and seemingly ties gay people at the hip to an event that is sexualizing and grooming children.

Yep.  And yet the RaYnbow Coalition is inviting BYU students and Latter-day Saint families to participate in this highly sexualized stuff.

Yep.  And yet the RaYnbow Coalition...

A very good point.

BYU should be commended for refusing to promote an activity calculated toward the sexualization and grooming of children.

That's the point.  BYU threw out the materials rather than distributing them.  

BYU is now being excoriated for not distributing to its incoming students on campus an ad for a drag show featuring performers with sexually provocative stage names like "Ana Lee Kage" and "Jenna Tailia."

Thanks,

-Smac

So, you imagine that BYU agreed to distribute materials they hadn’t looked at and therefore were surprised at the last minute? That’s not how they do things. 

As for the inherent wickedness of drag shows, I grew up watching Bugs Bunny, Flip Wilson’s Geraldine, and Dame Edna and somehow have reached the age of 57 without ever having tucked, donned a sequined mini-dress, and sung a Cher medley. 

Saying that all drag shows are inherently salacious is like pointing to Game of Thrones to show that all television is inappropriate for children. 

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35 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It is wrong, yes. But it is not grooming. Grooming is when an adult befriends a child for the purposes of gaining trust and access in order to commit CSA. Google "grooming definition"

The use of the grooming in these situations is wrong and very annoying.

I dunno.  From the article I quoted previously:

Quote

Encouraging children to touch strangers in areas of the body that are usually covered by undergarments and desensitizing kids to overt depictions of adult sexuality is dangerous territory.

And here:

Quote

If these were instead women dancing provocatively, giving lap dances, and removing their clothing in front of child onlookers, I’m certain staff and fellow audience members would be disgusted and appalled. The dancers would surely be asked to leave, and there is a high probability that Child Protective Services would be called on parents, as well.

I think efforts to acclimatize children to sexually provocative interactions with adults is indeed "dangerous territory."  And it may amount to "grooming" as defined here:

Quote

Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a minor,[1][2] and sometimes the child's family, to lower the child's inhibitions with the objective of sexual abuse.[3][4] Child grooming is also regularly used to lure minors into various illicit businesses such as child trafficking, child prostitution, cybersex trafficking,[5] or the production of child pornography.[6][7][8]

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Given that BYU threw out all LGBTQ materials given by outside groups, I very much doubt they distributed it. 

I am limited for time so I didn’t read Smac’s other thread on this or this one as closely as I should have, but did they throw out all the queer material or just some?  If it was all one handout stuck in the student newspaper, it would have to be all thrown out, but perhaps it was multiple pages (and that is why it was called a pamphlet).  Anyone know for sure?

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33 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Where is this excoriation happening?

Groups claim BYU removed LGBTQ+ resources meant for incoming students

Quote

Though a TikTok video posted she posted Thursday, Orr said the pamphlets were "full of resources, of housing, of scholarships, of therapy resources, for LGBTQ youth that are going to BYU."

"Today BYU broke their contract and they destroyed them," she said. "They took them out of those baskets and they destroyed them and I’m so mad. I’m so mad at BYU right now."

Within hours, there were thousands of likes and comments on Orr's post, many also expressing their outrage.

"It was blasted so fast," Orr said. "And what it shows is that the reason it’s getting so much attention and traction is because it’s unacceptable. It’s because it’s not okay."

This is unacceptable BYU. I am livid.  From the comments (a small sampling) :

Quote

Why anyone would go to BYU for any reason whatsoever is a mystery to me.

They are saying you are not welcome and we don’t care about what you go through… they should lose their NCAA accreditation

Why would anyone think BYU would do the right thing?! How anyone goes there is beyond me.

Glad this is coming out before I applied to grad school there… I refuse to attend a place like this😡😑

Disappointed and angry to be a BYU alum. See y’all on September 3rd 🌈

I got accepted to BYU. My dream school since I could remember. Decided not to go due to their policies.

The hatred shouldn’t keep surprising me. But it does. 💔

Ive literally never heard a positive thing from BYU

I’m so sorry. That is not ok. They will answer for it…

Best decision I made for myself was leaving BYU

These students are just trying to progress in their education. It is absolutely disgusting that they would do that!

we already know how bad #BYU sucks.

Mormon university tears up support for LGBTQ+ students already forced to live in the closet

Quote

“This decision is disappointing and disheartening, especially when we consider our experiences as freshmen feeling lonely, isolated, and unsupported as queer students. Unfortunately, it follows a consistent pattern of BYU breaking its promises and agreements with LGBTQ+ students,” said RaYnbow Collective.

...

John Valdez, the executive director of The OUT Foundation which supports LGBTQ+ alumni and current students of BYU, told PinkNews: “BYU’s policies are harmful to the emotional and intellectual development of queer students on campus.”

“Queer students are often othered and made to feel less than their heteronormative peers. Queer relationships are banned; if a student dares to explore a relationship, in what is normally considered to be an integral part of the college experience, they also risk losing their access to their education, on-campus jobs, and even housing.”

Valdez of OUT Foundation added: “Queer expression is not allowed on campus; protests surrounding homophobic policies, exploration of gender identity, and even queer-centric art have all been shut down by the university.”

Thanks,

-Smac

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4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am limited for time so I didn’t read Smac’s other thread on this or this one as closely as I should have, but did they throw out all the queer material or just some?  If it was all one handout stuck in the student newspaper, it would have to be all thrown out, but perhaps it was multiple pages (and that is why it was called a pamphlet).  Anyone know for sure?

The news items on this are, I think, unclear.  I think there was both A) a "pamphlet" (included in the welcome basket/bag) that includes "resources" for LGBT students, and also B) an advertisement for the drag show (sexually provocative stage names and all).

If that is the case, and if the "contract" with the student paper covered both (the pamphlet and the advertising insert), then I could see BYU pulling both and refunding the entirety of the money paid.

Thanks,

-Smac

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10 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am limited for time so I didn’t read Smac’s other thread on this or this one as closely as I should have, but did they throw out all the queer material or just some?  If it was all one handout stuck in the student newspaper, it would have to be all thrown out, but perhaps it was multiple pages (and that is why it was called a pamphlet).  Anyone know for sure?

It just defies logic to think BYU approved a pamphlet or ad or whatever it is without having seen it, and then, at the last minute, discovered it was inappropriate and threw it out. The only possible way they could have been surprised by the content is if the providers made unauthorized changes without informing BYU and were discovered in that fact. In that case, one would expect BYU would say that's what happened. They didn't.

As I recall, every Freshman Orientation week, the Daily Universe puts out a special non-news edition that is kind of a guide to the campus and its amenities for freshmen. Sometimes it has been part of a gift bag, with BYU t-shirts and other stuff provided by sponsors. So, I don't necessarily see a conflict between the labeling it as an ad or part of a gift bag. It could easily have been both. Either way, there is no way BYU doesn't screen such material ahead of time. And as far as I can tell, the flyer for the drag show isn't necessarily what was thrown out, but I could be wrong. Smac seems to make the connection, but I'm reserving judgment.

As I said, my point here is that a drag show in itself is not necessarily a sign of moral or cultural decadence. Sister Dottie S. Dixon was a bit of a cultural fixture in Utah for decades, after all. 

Edited by jkwilliams
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9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What did he teach, if you don't mind me asking?

Some of the things he taught were:

  • "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3 NIV)
  • Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Eph. 5:22-24)
  • Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
  • A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Tim. 2:11-15)"
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51 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

So, you imagine that BYU agreed to distribute materials they hadn’t looked at and therefore were surprised at the last minute? That’s not how they do things. 

So you think BYU did agree to distribute a flyer to incoming students on campus for a drag show with performers with sexually provocative stage names?

I suspect some functionary at the newspaper didn't do his job right.

51 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As for the inherent wickedness of drag shows, I grew up watching Bugs Bunny, Flip Wilson’s Geraldine, and Dame Edna and somehow have reached the age of 57 without ever having tucked, donned a sequined mini-dress, and sung a Cher medley. 

I think the sexualization/grooming of children is nearly inherent in drag shows and story hours for kids.  

51 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Saying that all drag shows are inherently salacious is like pointing to Game of Thrones to show that all television is inappropriate for children. 

Again, drag shows are inherently sexualized and provocative, akin to sexually-suggestive Burlesque Shows, and not that far removed from strip clubs either.

Thanks,

-Smac

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9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some of the things he taught were:

  • "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3 NIV)
  • Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Eph. 5:22-24)
  • Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
  • A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Tim. 2:11-15)"

Shite!

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