More Cultural and Moral Decay

[ttribe]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Groups claim BYU removed LGBTQ+ resources meant for incoming students

This is unacceptable BYU. I am livid.  From the comments (a small sampling) :

Mormon university tears up support for LGBTQ+ students already forced to live in the closet

Thanks,

-Smac

Huh, seems like a little bit of forced outrage. I can't imagine they actually thought BYU would really distribute the fliers.

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So you think BYU did agree to distribute a flyer to incoming students on campus for a drag show with performers with sexually provocative stage names?

I suspect some functionary at the newspaper didn't do his job right.

I think the sexualization/grooming of children is nearly inherent in drag shows and story hours for kids.  

Again, drag shows are inherently sexualized and provocative, akin to sexually-suggestive Burlesque Shows, and not that far removed from strip clubs either.

Thanks,

-Smac

I’ve already mentioned it’s problematic to think BYU somehow approved handouts without looking at them, and I also don’t have any idea if the drag show flyer was the Handout in question. 

And for the record, I find it ludicrous that you think drag shows inherently involve grooming kids and are like sexually suggestive burlesque. Makes me think you’ve never been to a drag show. The one I went to personally featured Olivia Neutron-Bomb as the headliner and was, if not my cup of tea, pretty funny and not at all sexual. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Huh, seems like a little bit of forced outrage. I can't imagine they actually thought BYU would really distribute the fliers.

People seem to be suggesting that the group intentionally submitted a flyer they knew BYU would reject because they had it in for the school. Boy, gay people sure are devious!

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some of the things he taught were:

• "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3 NIV)
• Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Eph. 5:22-24)
• Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
• A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Tim. 2:11-15)"

But..but..but... that's scripture!  🥺

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Brigham Morris Young, one of the founders of the Young Men’s program in the church, would disagree with you.

 

From Wikipedia:

Young performed as Pattirini in north and central Utah venues from 1885 to the 1900s. He could produce a convincing falsetto, and many in the audience did not realize that Pattirini was Young. One of his performances as Madam Pattirini was for the last birthday celebration of LDS president "Lorenzo Snow" in April 1901.

Comparing the OP show to BMM is like comparing a music hall burlesque to a vegas strip club or a geisha to a street walker.

Any similarities in basic principle are purely coincidental.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Is that the point?

Is the OP about why BYU shouldn’t be maligned for not including the flyer?

I didn’t get that from the OP at all. 

You're correct though it is clear the topic thread has morphed into what smac is now addressing.

[Peacefully]

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some of the things he taught were:

• "But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor. 11:3 NIV)
• Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. (Eph. 5:22-24)
• Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. (1 Cor. 14:34-35)
• A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Tim. 2:11-15)"

I grew up in a church where this was practiced. Women were taught to be silent in church when men were present. We could not lead singing, prayer, or teach men. The LDS church is much better where women are concerned but we still have a ways to go, imho. Sorry to derail. 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Peacefully

[jkwilliams]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Comparing the OP show to BMM is like comparing a music hall burlesque to a vegas strip club or a geisha to a street walker.

Any similarities in basic principle are purely coincidental.

I dunno. The one I went to wasn’t particularly scandalous. The dresses were shorter, though. 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I dunno. The one I went to wasn’t particularly scandalous. The dresses were shorter, though. 

You read their names -a lot more sexual than Madam Pattirini.  Something tells me the content is more sexual and less comedic.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You read their names -a lot more sexual than Madam Pattirini.  Something tells me the content is more sexual and less comedic.

I agree that some of the names are not child-appropriate. But I have no idea what the content of the show is to be, and I don’t think they’re saying “family friendly” in order to groom kids. 

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Durangout said:

I have no words.  I’m just horrified and sickened

I've seen and heard more offensive/vulgar stuff on PG13 movies.

[smac97]

59 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’ve already mentioned it’s problematic to think BYU somehow approved handouts without looking at them, and I also don’t have any idea if the drag show flyer was the Handout in question. 

Okay.

59 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

And for the record, I find it ludicrous that you think drag shows inherently involve grooming kids and are like sexually suggestive burlesque. Makes me think you’ve never been to a drag show. The one I went to personally featured Olivia Neutron-Bomb as the headliner and was, if not my cup of tea, pretty funny and not at all sexual. 

I will concede that drag shows exist on a gradient, and that some are not overtly sexually provocative/suggestive.  But there sure seem to be plenty which are.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

Okay.

I will concede that drag shows exist on a gradient, and that some are not overtly sexually provocative/suggestive.  But there sure seem to be plenty which are.

Thanks,

-Smac

Of course there are. No one is disputing that. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Huh, seems like a little bit of forced outrage.

I agree.

1 hour ago, ttribe said:

I can't imagine they actually thought BYU would really distribute the fliers.

But it's not stopping them from using this story as ammunition against BYU (and, derivatively, against the Church).

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

But..but..but... that's scripture!  🥺

Yep.  Thank goodness we don't believe that the bible is infallible.   

[bluebell]

57 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

You're correct though it is clear the topic thread has morphed into what smac is now addressing.

Which is probably inevitable, but at the same time interesting because he has his own thread on it that he started.   

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I grew up in a church where this was practiced. Women were taught to be silent in church when men were present. We could not lead singing, prayer, or teach men. The LDS church is much better where women are concerned but we still have a ways to go, imho. Sorry to derail. 

People can use Christianity to do a lot of harm.  Just like they can use all good things to do evil I guess.   

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yep.  Thank goodness we don't believe that the bible is infallible.   

What if it said it in the Book of Mormon or D&C?

Would that make it more true?

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yep.  Thank goodness we don't believe that the bible is infallible.   

Yes to that!

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

What if it said it in the Book of Mormon or D&C?

Would that make it more true?

But it doesn't say it in there. And I'm sure that just kills those men who really want it to be true. 

[Vanguard]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Which is probably inevitable, but at the same time interesting because he has his own thread on it that he started.   

Noted though I believe when there are enough misrepresentations on this thread, it merits stepping in to steady the ship. ; ) 

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But it doesn't say it in there. And I'm sure that just kills those men who really want it to be true. 

Well it certainly explains why Paul was single when he wrote it.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Durangout said:

Attack the messenger and not the evil that is on display.  Got it.  By your understanding of the term virtue signaling…if I said murder was bad you would call me a Karen, right?  I’m ok with that.

I would call you a Karen for comparing crossdressing to murder.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I will concede that drag shows exist on a gradient, and that some are not overtly sexually provocative/suggestive.  But there sure seem to be plenty which are.

They also seem to be a preferred Trojan Horse in this particular historical moment, making it easy for 'progressive' apologists to respond with their trademark combination of mocking and outrage that we always see on these kinds of threads.

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

They also seem to be a preferred Trojan Horse in this particular historical moment, making it easy for 'progressive' apologists to respond with their trademark combination of mocking and outrage that we always see on these kinds of threads.

I wonder what the proper response is to the overwrought outrage porn that inevitably fills these threads.