More Cultural and Moral Decay

[Calm]

Just now, california boy said:

I did the AIDS Lifecycle (bike) ride from San Francisco to Los Angeles for several years.  Their was this one drag queen that would dress up in a completely different outfit every day of the week long ride and stand at the top of the steepest hill of the day to encourage riders to make it up the hill.  Sometimes they would almost get to the top and she would run down and push their bikes up the last little bit, helping them reach their goal.  One day, I was having a meal and this man came and set next to me.  We started talking and it was only by him telling me that he was the drag queen that I had seen at the top of the hill did I recognize him.

I am guessing that dressing up as a woman gives the person complete freedom to become someone that they totally are not.  They can hide behind the outrageous make up, over the top wigs and flashy dresses.  You see them as someone completely different.  I think for many drag queens, they want to hide behind that second persona.  Like my friend that I met this week, it allowed him to shed completely this shy, very introverted self, to become something, even briefly, totally different that he couldn't be, for whatever reason, in real life.   

A man dressing as a man is just a change of clothing.  A man dressing as a woman, allows for a complete transformation.  Maybe rewatch Victor/Victoria or Some Like it Hot to give you a better idea of the difference.

Would you be okay with someone dressing up as a different ethnicity in order to allow for a complete transformation?  If not, why not and why for drag?  Serious question, I want to understand the thought process, not criticize it…though I might criticize it later given my feelings in general about cultural appropriation.

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

Nehor, can you explain the difference than to me between men performing drag and whites performing war dances in full regalia?  
 

I have never ever called drag performing grooming and I don’t see how it can be.

Sure, white people doing a war dance in native dress is probably taking something sacred and important to people and holding it up to ridicule.

Drag queen acts are not really a caricature of womanhood in general. In modern times particularly they are a caricature of emasculated manhood. It is what popular society said gay men are. There is a degree of weaponization in taking that label and turning it around. Other gay guys fought back by going hypermasculine. It is the people at the bottom of the social totem pole punching up. I get some of this as a bisexual guy. Many women will not continue to date me if I tell them and I disclose early for this reason. Many reasons are given like not being okay with anyone who would be up for doing those “things”, not being able to respect me as a man because of the weird submissive connotations some people have about gay sex, worry that I will cheat with anyone and everything that is human, fear of competing with men and women, etc. Most don’t give a reason and just say it wouldn’t work out. One of the reasons I am still single and don’t actively try to date anymore.

Assuming a drag show is a caricature aimed at women is a dubious proposition at best.

Even if it were (and I am not conceding that) it is still not likely to be remembered as an equivalent of the minstrel show. It is more likely to be the equivalent of a minority comic making fun of white people.

[california boy]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Nehor, can you explain the difference than to me between men performing drag and whites performing war dances in full regalia for entertainment or for them to express their inner warrior?  (Not being sarcastic here)
 

I have never ever called drag performing grooming and I don’t see how it can be.

Plus I have never been comfortable with drag performances from my youth because to me it feeds female stereotyping.

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Calm said:

Would you be okay with someone dressing up as a different ethnicity in order to allow for a complete transformation?  If not, why not and why for drag?  Serious question, I want to understand the thought process, not criticize it…though I might criticize it later given my feelings in general about cultural appropriation.

 

 

Maybe to better understand your question, can you tell me what part of drag you have seen that you feel these gay men are appropriating?  When you see a drag performer. what part of their performance do you identify with and feel that has been appropriated and should ONLY be preserved for women?

Edited September 3, 2022 by california boy

[Calm]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Assuming a drag show is a caricature aimed at women is a dubious proposition at best.

I am not saying it is aimed at women, it just often uses caricatures of women rather than realistic portrayals.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Calm said:

I am not saying it is aimed at women, it just often uses caricatures of women rather than realistic portrayals.

It is not meant to be realistic.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is more likely to be the equivalent of a minority comic making fun of white people.

Why?  Women have been oppressed in most cultures for eons.  They are often classified with minorities due to inequalities even now.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is not meant to be realistic.

Is blackface or other ethnic appropriation for entertainment meant to be realistic? (I am not saying drag is identical to blackface though I have known women who feel that way, but I can see overlapping).  Maybe putting blackface and such into the category of cultural appropriation is incorrect, but that is how I have heard it being used as well as the more adapting a lifestyle version, basically taking what is identified with one group, clothing, mannerisms, appearance, etc. and taking it as one’s own to do with, to interpret as one wants rather than seeing it as part of another’s culture and not a possession.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Calm

[california boy]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am not saying it is aimed at women, it just often uses caricatures of women rather than realistic portrayals.

There is a segment of drag that does try and do realistic portrayals.  The most popular are Cher, Madonna, Lady Gaga, Liza Minelle, Dolly Parton, Adele, and other gay icons.  Their performances are done to honor these women who have accepted them as gay men for who they are when others would not.   And these women have all responded to those that have taken their performances and honored the men who have done those performances.

I went to a Cher concert a couple of years ago at Las Vegas.  During her performance, she specifically called out all those men who "is more Cher than I am".

Edited September 3, 2022 by california boy

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why?  Women have been oppressed in most cultures for eons.  They are often classified with minorities due to inequalities even now.

Because gay men are not the culture oppressing women and if it is a caricature it is almost always of women near the top of the society ladder.

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is blackface or other ethnic appropriation for entertainment meant to be realistic? (I am not saying drag is identical to blackface though I have known women who feel that way, but I can see overlapping).  Maybe putting blackface and such into the category of cultural appropriation is incorrect, but that is how I have heard it being used as well as the more adapting a lifestyle version, basically taking what is identified with one group, clothing, mannerisms, appearance, etc. and taking it as one’s own to do with, to interpret as one wants rather than seeing it as part of another’s culture and not a possession.

It is not realistic but blackface and minstrel shows turned black people into a stock character. A drag queen performance is not designed to reduce women to a punchline or a stereotype. If that were the goal there would only be drag queens that can ‘pass’ as women.

[Calm]

Just now, california boy said:

There is a segment of drag that does try and do realistic portrayals.  The most popular are Cher, Madonna, Lady Gaga, Liza Minelle, Dolly Parton, Adele, and other gay icons.  Their performances are done to honor these women who have accepted them as gay men for who they are when others would not.   And these women have all responded to those that have taken their performances and honored the men who have done those performances.

I can see how that works out to be mutually respectful.  I do feel more comfortable when it is a specific woman who has openly expressed her appreciation for the impersonation.  What about other cases though?  How would you address those examples that seem to pick what is seen as a feminine characteristic and pushes it to more extreme behaviour, like flirting.  Someone mentioned Flip Wilson earlier and I remember as a kid cringing when I heard him do the Devil made me do it routine because it felt to me like mockery of Christians who believed in the Devil as well as portraying women in general as childish, refusing to accept responsibility.  I was a too serious kid, what can I say…too many serious talks about symbolism and archetypes and how it all influences us with my mom and too many psych and anthropology books, good and bad ones.  I couldn’t see much difference between watching a Geraldine performance and watching Disney’s “Red Man” in Peter Pan back then.  I have a somewhat more nuanced view these days, but l still personally see a lot of overlap.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because gay men are not the culture oppressing women and if it is a caricature it is almost always of women near the top of the society ladder.

Gay men are men last I checked.  And if you don’t think gay men pull male privilege over women sometimes, I am surprised.  White women certainly pull whites privilege way too often.   I have seen both privileges operate in my own extended family.  Seen it elsewhere as well. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Because gay men are not the culture oppressing women and if it is a caricature it is almost always of women near the top of the society ladder.

It is not realistic but blackface and minstrel shows turned black people into a stock character. A drag queen performance is not designed to reduce women to a punchline or a stereotype. If that were the goal there would only be drag queens that can ‘pass’ as women.

Not really in my view. I am not following the logic. What blackface character passed as Black?  And I have unfortunately heard whites defend blackface because it was just a cartoon like character and not meant to be all blacks etc and blacks were taking it way too serious what was meant to be just a little fun dress up.  It was embarrassing listening to it (since it was from family or friend, thankfully decades ago).

Just because something is not intended to work in a certain way does not mean it doesn’t end up with that kind of influence.  To me seeing the kind of behaviour and appearance drag elevates as feminine, that just makes that stereotype that much more embedded in our culture.  Pink is for girls becomes more so, not less because men pretending to be girls wear a lot of pink (and I use girls intentionally). 

And I will be honest and say that it is coming across as not letting concerns of those that feel they are targeted be taken seriously. I have heard concerns of Native Americans disliking logos, etc as they aren’t realistic, they don’t apply to any real people and stuff I am hearing here.  This reminds me of that kind of stuff.  I feel like you all are convincing me the more radical position has some validity.  

And while I know that a lot of women are comfortable with drag, I wonder how much is that cultural upbringing that has for a very long time allowed men to define our roles for us. I don’t know any way of how to test that though.  At this point I don’t see enough reason to assume it is true.  

Edited September 3, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

I need to take a break.  The room is spinning and not because of the discussion, lol. Stupid allergies.  I give my brain about 30 minutes before it goes primal if I don’t do some major relaxation and avoid the serious stuff for the rest of the night.

I sincerely want to understand, but I also need to have women in general and as individuals understood as well, even some of those I don’t agree with all the time.  And so far I am not picking up on that part, but I greatly appreciate the effort and have hope it may get there somehow.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Calm

[california boy]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can see how that works out to be mutually respectful.  I do feel more comfortable when it is a specific woman who has openly expressed her appreciation for the impersonation.  What about other cases though?  How would you address those examples that seem to pick what is seen as a feminine characteristic and pushes it to more extreme behaviour, like flirting.  Someone mentioned Flip Wilson earlier and I remember as a kid cringing when I heard him do the Devil made me do it routine because it felt to me like mockery of Christians who believed in the Devil as well as portraying women in general as childish, refusing to accept responsibility.  I was a too serious kid, what can I say…too many serious talks about symbolism and archetypes and how it all influences us with my mom and too many psych and anthropology books, good and bad ones.  I couldn’t see much difference between watching a Geraldine performance and watching Disney’s “Red Man” in Peter Pan back then.  I have a somewhat more nuanced view these days, but l still personally see a lot of overlap.

You certainly bring up some good points.  Honestly, I have never heard this being an issue for women.  Like I said earlier, I haven't been to that many drag shows.  But the ones I have been to have had women (mostly straight women) attend and they seemed to love it and get into the spirit of the performance.  

I remember when RuPaul Drag Show first aired. I didn't think it would be very interesting and over the years I have maybe watched it only a couple of times.  Yet this is the 14th season.  I haven't seen a big social protest bringing up some of the issues you are asking about.  Have you?  I am just wondering how many women feel that it is comparable to black face or culture appropriation.  

[Calm]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

The FAIR response was SO out of line.  All about judgemental assumptions interpreted in the worse possible way.  As others have pointed out, reading a story to children (with their parents right there, unless you believe that parents let their children wander to the library on their own) is not grooming.  

I did a search on Cassandra’s blog and I found the term “grooming” only once and it was used in the other version of care of appearance, nothing to do with abuse.

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It’s also in total opposition to church teachings to “socially transition” one’s gender via changes to dress, grooming, name or pronouns, yet the pamphlet boldly offers help in obtaining “affirming clothing,” meaning clothes to appear as the opposite gender or as “non-binary,” neither male nor female. The last resource listed there, Genderbands, was unfamiliar to me, so with the enterprising spirit so sadly lacking among paid journalists, I looked them up on Instagram.

I am assuming there are other parts that imply grooming is occurring that I missed.  My interpretation was her focus was that activists were promoting behaviours and ideas contrary to church doctrine and practices, such as in the above quote.  Could you point implied grooming (as in victims for abuse) comments  out to me as to me FAIR’s stuff would benefit from avoiding that usage, but if she isn’t using the word then I will need to show if the description isn’t accurate if it isn’t.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, california boy said:

You certainly bring up some good points.  Honestly, I have never heard this being an issue for women.  Like I said earlier, I haven't been to that many drag shows.  But the ones I have been to have had women (mostly straight women) attend and they seemed to love it and get into the spirit of the performance.  

I remember when RuPaul Drag Show first aired. I didn't think it would be very interesting and over the years I have maybe watched it only a couple of times.  Yet this is the 14th season.  I haven't seen a big social protest bringing up some of the issues you are asking about.  Have you?  I am just wondering how many women feel that it is comparable to black face or culture appropriation.  

I have no clue the percentage.  I have come across it reading on occasion over the decades, more in the past and unfortunately not sources I can easily find…maybe I will try and find some tomorrow…and I have heard it in private discussions, but it wasn’t something that was a cause for any of them, rather a frustration and a feeling it was one of many things, so unlikely that it would be publicized much when there are other, more immediate issues.

[Calm]

So have to focus on something to keep the world from tilting and this is the only thing feeling like it is occupying my mind right now (besides picking up a few last odds and ends for finishing off the house and it is stupid for me to shop when I am like this, I have learned from experience). So basically I am reading a few paragraphs at the beginning and at the end to see if relevant. I am not saying I agree with this article since I have not read it, but I thought it would be helpful to hear other voices on this issue and the first one that popped up to “drag insults women” (which is the most common phrasing I remember) was this one that appears to be right on point… which makes me a bit wary to post it, but I may forget about it if I wait, lol.  What I have read is more absolute than my own position, but similar to what I have heard in the past..

https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3209&context=cklawreview

“This entire society reifies the concept that the behavior of women should be dictated by men because men know best. Men know that marriage is best for women; men know that child rearing is best for women; men know that getting paid and recognized less is best for women. I do not really think that men also need to be man able to say that they know-and will demonstrate-how perfectly lean and curveless women should look in their evening gowns.
Glamour drag, which depends on downplaying the incongruity, minimizing the contrast between performer and performed, and concealing the "masculine" within the "feminine," makes clear the prescriptive nature of all drag. The point of glamour drag is not to tell jokes but to perform the feminine. The only reason to hire a man for this purpose-when there are plenty of women available, by definition more experienced and better qualified-is to give men the continued right and privilege to determine the content of the feminine. Just as white people in blackface announced and established the limits of African-Americans' behavior, men in dresses announce, establish, and enforce the limits of what will be expected of, and tolerated from, women.
Minstrel performances of cake-walking took the dance out of its compulsory context to present African-Americans as feckless and jolly in servitude. Similarly, glamour drag takes glamour out of its context, which is the need women have to use sexual attractiveness to secure male protection in a society that punishes women who are without it. And if even those sober-faced performances are funny, it must be because women themselves are a joke. "Look at how vain and foolish they are!" "Look how self-absorbed!" "Look how
trivial!" "Aren't women funny when they want sex?" "And aren't they hilarious when they don't?"
Thus, drag's humor depends entirely on the audience's willingness to believe that women are rightfully the butt of every joke. Does it seem humorless to refuse to participate? Well, it was precisely the fact that blackface impersonation was a joke -played by white people, for white people, through the medium of and on black people-that led ultimately to its condemnation. In fact, Ralph Ellison's 1958 essay-perhaps the single most important scholarly contribution to the eradication of blackface-is called Change the Joke and Slip the Yoke.46 Ellison points out first that what have been taken by white audiences to be the archetypes of the black experience are, in fact, its stereotypes.47 He then addresses the defense of high spirits and boyish fun, saying,
Down at the deep dark bottom of the melting pot, where the private is public and the public private, where black is white and white black, where the immoral becomes moral and the moral is anything that makes one feel good (or that one has the power to sustain), the white man's relish is apt to be the black man's gall.
It is not at all odd that this black-faced figure of white fun is for Negroes a symbol of everything they rejected in the white man's thinking about race, in themselves and in their own group. 48
Likewise, the drag queen is a symbol of everything women reject in men's thinking about gender, and the relish of drag performance- by performer and audience alike-is every woman's gall.”

Edited September 3, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

https://thecritic.co.uk/how-drag-degrades-women/
 

“This context reinforces how a drag night to raise funds for homeless youth was incredibly inappropriate. Drag at its core is misogynistic; it is men portraying women as sexually objectified caricatures. Drag performers frequently reduce women to hyper sexualised, big breasted, big haired bimbos….

In what other circumstance is it acceptable to woop and clap when a member of the privileged group uses ridicule against an oppressed group? To rub salt in the wounds, these men build their careers off of the tools of female oppression — gender stereotypes and sexual objectification — and re-entrench them in performances where they are portrayed as just a laugh and a lark.”

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Would you be okay with someone dressing up as a different ethnicity in order to allow for a complete transformation?  If not, why not and why for drag?  Serious question, I want to understand the thought process, not criticize it…though I might criticize it later given my feelings in general about cultural appropriation.

Yes, if there was a consensus or even a large group of people within an ethnic group that had issues with someone performing an ethnic group, then I would.  If it was a handful of activists trying to speak for a non existent outrage within the community, then probably not.

These kinds of issues is all about being sensitive to others without succumbing to a world where everyone is offended over every little creative license someone takes.  I believe there is a balance on all of these kinds of issues.  It is more about respecting others than making a blanket statement that has to fit all situations.  

[Calm]

I like this article quite a bit from the viewpoint of a drag queen as I think he gets it a lot, but  I still think he misses a bit of how some women see drag as just another way of men saying they do whatever better than women, diminishing women’s contributions and core. 
 

https://slate.com/human-interest/2015/02/is-mary-cheney-right-about-drag-being-like-blackface.html

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I did a search on Cassandra’s blog and I found the term “grooming” only once and it was used in the other version of care of appearance, nothing to do with abuse.

I am assuming there are other parts that imply grooming is occurring that I missed.  My interpretation was her focus was that activists were promoting behaviours and ideas contrary to church doctrine and practices, such as in the above quote.  Could you point implied grooming (as in victims for abuse) comments  out to me as to me FAIR’s stuff would benefit from avoiding that usage, but if she isn’t using the word then I will need to show if the description isn’t accurate if it isn’t.

It is more than just the grooming accusation.  It is the outrage that she writes about as she represents FAIR because drag queens dare to do something that doesn't fit into her religious beliefs. There is a HUGE difference in stating that drag queens do not conform to the religious beliefs of the Church of the Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and an outrage that someone would dare to exercise their own beliefs of what is appropriate for their children.  FAIR is NOT the moral judgement bar for other peoples beliefs.

Here are some of the problematic quotes from her outrage.

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 Because parents deserve to know what’s being pushed on their children by rogue activists at BYU, because it could profoundly harm their faith, and their mental and physical health.

Is there really an expectation that BYU run everything past the parents of every student that it makes available to students?  Or is it only anything that has to do with LGBT issues?  If it is only LGBT issues, then yeah, she comes across as homophobic without any moral authority to speak for BYU.

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But anyone curious enough to spend thirty seconds searching for more depth will find genuinely shocking details.   It’s distressing that parents aren’t getting that detail from the news.

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But a peep at the actual pamphlet provides a startling detail–this is not just a humdrum invitation to a rainbow-themed party.

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 But this year’s drag show, as publicly advertised by the RaYnbow Collective on Instagram, and set for this very weekend, looks to be rather more…flamboyant:

Clutch your pearls.  A drag show that is flamboyant!!!  Yeah that is something worth getting outraged about.

Genuinely shocking details???  Oh my. Poor little sheltered 18 year old college students.  Is not part of the responsibility of BYU to prepare these students to become a part of society at some point?  What happens if their first job in the REAL world there is actually a gay person working there?   

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Some of the troubled souls who organized this event and designed this flier are current BYU students.

Here we go.  If you are LGBT you are a troubled soul that needs to be fixed or at the very least shamed.

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Activists are setting a trap for those trying to both be true to their faith and to sincerely love their LGBT friends and family. 

There it is.  Activist are setting a trap.  Grooming these students to leave their religion and join the drag queen cult.

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 If “support” for the LGBT community requires normalizing drag shows, which requires abandonment of basic virtue and sanity beyond what anyone of good faith could reasonably expect, then LGBT young adults are emotionally pressured into believing their loved ones will never “support” them.  This alienates LGBT students from their families and church leaders, poisons their faith in the church, and emotionally bonds them to the activists.

Somehow attending a drag show requires someone to abandon their virtue and sanity.  It poisons their faith??  Really.  Just how fragile is their faith?  Sorry, but no one requires anyone to commit to abandoning their faith if they dare to attend a drag show.  

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It shouldn’t have to be said, but: no student who promotes and attends, let alone organizes, a drag show should continue to enjoy tithing-subsidized attendance at a church institution.

Then part of the interview questions that should be asked by every bishop before attending is "Have you ever attended a drag show before?"  Until that is part of the application process, she doesn't get to make that a requirement for attending BYU in my opinion.

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The Deseret News reports, the pamphlet includes “information about campus resources for LGBT students, such as counseling.” However, there are only a select few BYU resources included on the pamphlet that are official:

Is that now a requirement?  Only official resources can be used if you are a student at BYU?  No one is allowed to go off campus to deal with mental and physical problems that may come up while a student at BYU?  Are students allowed to talk to non member friends while attending BYU or do they have to also be approved friends? How about a family friend that a student might seek out for advice?  Not allowed either??

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LGBT students at BYU are not traditionally known for being in need of Planned Parenthood’s most famous services, for reasons both biological and doctrinal. But it’s a new era of progress, and Planned Parenthood has found a new strategy for amassing impressive profits: prescribing cross-sex hormones to transgender-identifying young adults. Taking cross-sex hormones to attempt to change one’s gender is in total opposition to church teachings and therefore totally inappropriate to promote at BYU. 

 

What?  By listing Planned Parenthood, your child is going to obviously start taking drugs to change their sex?  And if it is not listed in the brochure, then there is some guarantee offered by BYU that your child will not be transgender?  Sorry, but a listing of Planned Parenthood is not going to make your child transgender.  Where in the brochure does it state that Planned Parenthood is a source for hormonal drugs??  FAIR is just making crap up to stoke fear.

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It’s hardly believable, but an unknown number of BYU freshmen may have just been referred to Planned Parenthood for cross-sex hormones and medical gender “transition.” 

Where is the actually factual data to support this accusation, or does FAIR just make this stuff up to stoke fear against the LGBT community.  Cause that is what it looks like to me.

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“Top surgery” means permanently removing a woman’s healthy breasts because she wishes to “transition” to male, or to implant false breasts on a male chest to help him “transition” to female. 

Now FAIR has got the student on the operating table ready to remove breasts or implant false breasts as needed.   Please.  That is not how these things are done.  A person doesn't just walk in to ANY organization and asks to have their breasts removed.  Do you not see how the language in this article is ginning up unfounded fear and outrage over something that has no credibility?

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It’s horrifying that a “resource” nearly provided to all BYU freshmen (and possibly distributed to at least some of them) encourages such dangerous, spiritually treacherous, and family-destroying procedures.

What is horrifying is that a spokesman for a supposed credible organization has cooked all this fear and outrage over a one line listing of Planned Parenthood as a resource. 

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To reiterate, a group of BYU activists came extremely close to introducing the entire freshman class to extreme transgender activism. This network was poised to infect as many students as they could with an ideology that leads them directly away from Christ and His church’s teachings, their covenants, their grounding in a true understanding of biology and family relationships, and their parents’ influence. The activists came so excruciatingly close despite recent egregious behavior (last year’s drag show) and ample evidence they couldn’t possibly be trusted to provide “resources” to new students. 

Once again, all of this outrage is all based on one listing for Planned Parenthood.  And the supposition that if your precious little 18 year old child seeing that listing is going to come back to you by the end of the semester with a changed gender.  Wow, as she stated, a group of BYU activists came extremely close to your child being recruited to the transgender cult.  

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But it’s still imperative to honestly acknowledge who these activists are and what they actually believe. A BYU Freshman reading news coverage of this incident would probably conclude the only thing at stake here was the selfless efforts of big-hearted “allies” who just want to care for marginalized students.

Really?  she is being imperatively honest about just what these activists were trying to do to her precious child?  

I think it is the student that is the sane one and probably will conclude correctly that it was the selfless efforts of a big-hearted alliance that is offering some resource material to those students that have been trying to navigate what it is like to be LGBT in the Church.  If one is straight, I highly doubt the resources would even be looked at.

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It’s completely horrifying that the groups who produced the “resource” continue to have some access to BYU administration and presence on campus

Now it is horrifying that an LGBT group even has the ability to talk with school officials?  Yeah, they should be forced underground.  That will keep your child from becoming gay.  

I have had enough of this overblown horrifying stoking of fear and distortion on what this pamphlet is about.  If you care anything about the credibility of FAIR, you should be outraged as well that she presents herself as an official spokesman for the organization that you have long supported and care so deeply about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

It is more than just the grooming accusation.

But where was the grooming accusation?  I don’t remember reading it.  I tend to focus on one aspect at a time if I am thinking of encouraging someone to modify their writing, so this is what I am focusing on here because using grooming appropriately is important imo and a good place to start for better communication.  I will address the rest of the material in a bit.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

This seems thoughtful, well written so far, but only managed a bit. Got to sign off and go to sleep. Will finish in afternoon probably, maybe tomorrow night.  Things got neglected yesterday.  Got to put more effort into reality today.
 

https://eliesheva.medium.com/what-drag-queen-culture-does-to-women-via-rupauls-drag-race-5814c544d0ae

“But here’s where it starts to get messy: when the historically dominant sex, men, are empowered and emboldened to strut, ‘sashay’ and develop their female alter egos to a point that seems to cross a line into an extreme, hyperactive caricaturization of overblown female stereotypes. When is drag queen imagery insulting and belittling? If there is truly a movement to make traditionally feminine beauty genderless, what comes first? The mainstreaming or the extreme?

The way I see it, as a woman, the characterization of a reality TV drag queen series is not ‘gay men are this at the extreme’ or even ‘men can be this at the extreme’ but ‘this is a cartoonish portrayal of overblown women stereotypes now being owned and developed by men for entertainment/a personal fulfillment.’

Maybe I feel this way because I haven’t been all that exposed to real-life drag queens or drag shows. Maybe it’s the time I’m living in. Maybe I’m right, and there is something here to poke at — a misunderstood wound.” 

———

Also just glanced at this one thinking it was the above and this part jumped out and it reminded me of a lot of criticisms I have heard from other women

 https://www.feministcurrent.com/2014/04/25/why-has-drag-escaped-critique-from-feminists-and-the-lgbtq-community/

“In a 2006 paper, entitled “Imitating Others As Control: Is Drag Sexist/Racist?” Kirsten Anderberg writes:

“When men dress in drag and supposedly imitate women, it is most often very sexist in a remarkably similar way to the whites imitating racial minorities… All the things I have shunned as part of the ancient ‘cult of womanhood,’ all the superficial, commercialized, and fake aspects of ‘femininity’ that I have fought to be freed from, these men were embracing as their ‘womanhood!’ Tons of make up, huge dyed bouffant hair-dos, binding lingerie, heels, nylons, shaving…and these men in drag who were supposedly acting like women, also acted giddy, stupid, shallow…it is odd to me that this could be seen as anything but blatant sexism.””

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

But where was the grooming accusation?  I don’t remember reading it.  I tend to focus on one aspect at a time if I am thinking of encouraging someone to modify their writing, so this is what I am focusing on here because using grooming appropriately is important imo and a good place to start for better communication.  I will address the rest of the material in a bit.

Quote

Activists are setting a trap for those trying to both be true to their faith and to sincerely love their LGBT friends and family

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[Calm]

10 minutes ago, california boy said:

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I checked with Cassandra and she is not referring to children at all in her blog, except in that they are parts of families.  On this you have misread her completely.  I was wondering why I couldn’t remember any such references or find them.

Cassandra:  ”My *only* argument against drag shows is they're offensive to womanhood. I could have said more and may do so in the future, but that's all I said. I never say anything about them in re children at all…

I did say drag shows are "a sexualized depersonalization of half of Heavenly Father’s children," i.e. women. Half of Heavenly Father's children are women.”