Caffeine

[Rivers]

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

[Calm]

The spirit of the Word of Wisdom for me is to avoid in general things that aren’t healthy and those that alter mood artificially for recreational reasons.  I think it is very worthwhile to consciously make your life closer to what is your inspired ideal of lifestyle, whether spiritual, emotional, and physical.  It is showing respect for your soul (body, mind, spirit) as well as the commandments.

Energy drinks do both but using for work is different than just to have fun (apparently mixing energy drinks and alcohol is a big thing…and dangerous), so for me they are out as well…though I only used them a couple of times when I started caring for my mom, thinking it might help give me enough energy to put in a decent amount of time for errands and cleaning her place along with the hour’s drive…not really that helpful and no sleep that night, so never been tempting for me.

But it’s not like I am avoiding mood altering drugs for medicinal purposes, though the mood altering is more side effect for me than purpose.

Energy drinks are not particularly healthy, so even without the Word of Wisdom it is wise to ditch them imo.  Graveyard shift is a pain though and depending on your work, it may be wise to keep some No Doze around just in case, especially if there is a safety issue. (better to eat something healthy with that, a piece of fruit rather than sugar for more lasting energy).  But use the minimum dose you can handle.  I used a quarter of one when I had to drive but had bad nights.  More than enough because I rarely used it.

Also since caffeine can take ten hours (20 for me) to clear the body enough, it can interfere with sleep when you finally can sleep.  Best to limit caffeine except in emergencies for that reason.  At the very least, only have it early in your shift, absolutely not within four hours of your bedtime.

 Ways to help increase wakefulness and/or prevent sleep disorders:

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/shift-work-disorder/tips/staying-awake

——-

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/energy-drinks

Quote

Large amounts of caffeine may cause serious heart and blood vessel problems such as heart rhythm disturbances and increases in heart rate and blood pressure. Caffeine also may harm children’s still-developing cardiovascular and nervous systems. 

Caffeine use may also be associated with anxiety, sleep problems, digestive problems, and dehydration.

Guarana, commonly included in energy drinks, contains caffeine. Therefore, the addition of guarana increases the drink’s total caffeine content. 

People who combine caffeinated drinks with alcohol may not be able to tell how intoxicated they are; they may feel less intoxicated than they would if they had not consumed caffeine, but their motor coordination and reaction time may be just as impaired.

Excessive energy drink consumption may disrupt teens’ sleep patterns and may be associated with increased risk-taking behavior.

A single 16-oz. container of an energy drink may contain 54 to 62 grams of added sugar; this exceeds the maximum amount of added sugars recommended for an entire day.

PS:  I have cut down salt for about two years as a recommendation for helping with Meniere’s.  After a bad flare up (back to bucket holding) after eating donuts (Olive Garden ones, lol) for a birthday celebration, I decided to drop my sugar intake as well.  I feel so much better overall, though it hasn’t removed all the vertigo and stuff.  I was having major heartburn due to lying down after eating all the time too and that has gone.  Digestion is much better.   Caffeine can affect your gut as well, btw.  Sleep disorder is better too, I am working on tapering down my meds by at least a third.

Not saying eliminate sugar completely, but I think it’s smart to cut down.  Losing 15 lbs in 6 months without even trying was nice as well and I wasn’t even eating that much sugar (my mom made everything from scratch, I have always prefer plain yogurt to sweetened, couldn’t stand cold cereals because of the sugary milk even as a kid, never made cakes or cookies or dessert that much).  Less cravings under stress too (I tend to eat to sedate.) You might have less problems staying awake at night if you cut down refined sugars.  Whole fruit for a quick lift or sweet craving instead, dried if not possible to keep fresh fruit around.  Dried mango is my candy now.  Monkfruit sugar is what I use to replace white and brown sugar in cooking.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[blackstrap]

My spouse gets sick eating wheat products. Should she eat them anyway because the WoW says they are good for man? 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, blackstrap said:

My spouse gets sick eating wheat products. Should she eat them anyway because the WoW says they are good for man? 

She is Woman, so it doesn’t apply.

I don’t think God intended it as a rigid guideline myself.  I knew a kid who had to live off of cornstarch fed through a tube to his stomach.  (Can’t remember if I asked his mom if it was supplemented with the necessary vitamins and stuff as I couldn’t see how he could survive on it, but I may have misunderstood the details though I swear I asked if he could eat other stuff as well and it was minimal if at all; there is however, something called glycogen storage disorder where cornstarch is used throughout the day, perhaps he had the more severe kind, but still could eat a few other things…wish I had kept in touch, but life got real crowded.). Kind of a miracle he was still alive at 8 or 9 iirc when we left Canada.  He was a funny guy, great sense of humor, never acted like his life was hard.  Never knew a different life so maybe that helped.  Wonder how he is doing, if he is still around cracking jokes.  Anyway, for him the WoW would be very, very limited if abiding by the principle of it and not the itemized details.  If it is Glycogen Storage Disease, it looks like there is a new drug that has been out for a couple of years so maybe he finally can have pancakes and waffles.  I need to track down their last name as of course I am spacing on it and see if they are on FB.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

Yes!

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

As a rereading of D&C 89 will show, the Word of Wisdom was initially advisory in nature. Later, under prophetic direction, some of it was made binding as a commandment, amounting to a test of obedience for the Latter-day Saints. 
 

But there is much of the revelation that is still advisory in nature, and failure to heed it does not amount (for now) to the breaking of God’s law. 
 

I see the Word of Wisdom as having an element of “he who hath ears to hear let him hear.” That is to say, we can evaluate those substances that are strictly forbidden, determine for ourselves what it is that makes them harmful, and decide for ourselves what other substances are available to us that might have similarly harmful properties. 
 

Thus, I have never embraced the consumption of any caffeine-containing beverages, even after the Church has made clear in recent years that soda with caffeine is not prohibited under the Word of Wisdom. 
 

So I applaud you for cutting out caffeine, even though consuming it will not necessarily affect your status as one of God’s covenant people, the same way I might applaud you for eschewing debt, even though taking it on is not likely to put your status as a member of the Church at risk. 
 

[CA Steve]

Old joke.

You can the difference between an active Mormon and inactive one by the temperature of the caffeine they drink.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

I would say so, given you are inclined to follow the spirit of the word of wisdom.

[pogi]

8 hours ago, blackstrap said:

My spouse gets sick eating wheat products. Should she eat them anyway because the WoW says they are good for man? 

She would probably be fine eating wheat varieties from the period of the WoW.  Modern wheat is nothing like it was even 100 years ago and people are commonly getting sick from it as a result - even if they are not celiac.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Old joke.

You can the difference between an active Mormon and inactive one by the temperature of the caffeine they drink.

So old it has mold growing on its mold. 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

She would probably be fine eating wheat varieties from the period of the WoW.  Modern wheat is nothing like it was even 100 years ago and people are commonly getting sick from it as a result - even if they are not celiac.

Different today in what way? Higher gluten content?

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

Old joke.

You can the difference between an active Mormon and inactive one by the temperature of the caffeine they drink.

Many years ago when our children were young, in one of our family home evenings we asked our kids a series "good vs. bad" questions (I think it was on paper where they would write their answers).  One of the important questions was this:

Is it good to be active in the church?

To our surprise our daughter answered this question "NO".  When we asked her why she said no, she said:  "We're supposed to be reverent in church".

Good answers, but wrong context.  

So I suppose it could be argued that the "active" members likely are the caffeine drinkers.

Edited August 28, 2022 by InCognitus

[MrShorty]

I find myself a bit conflicted here. I am inclined to agree with you that it is good and prudent and wise to avoid energy drinks. On the other hand, I have encountered enough LDS naturopaths who have all kinds of interesting additions and extensions for the word of wisdom, that I find myself reticent to try to put a choice to abstain from energy drinks under the word of wisdom umbrella. I don't know exactly how to really understand this, but I find myself wanting to err on the side of personally choosing what I will and won't consume and labeling it personal choice without trying to make it about what God wants for me or referencing scripture or D&C 89 or anything.

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Different today in what way? Higher gluten content?

Not much. Personally, I think it's more the refining process most of our grains in western diets go through. That alters wheat a lot more than what's happened to it via genetic selection in the last century (though this has led to far less genetic diversity in food, which has other problems). 

This is a somewhat tangential example, but corn is a great/easy example example. When it was grown by natives in the americas, they would  process it using a process called nixtalization. This released much of the nutrients for digestion for humans. This process was lost when it was exported out and the corn became inadequately nutritious, needing other supplemental foods. Fast forward today. Corn tortillas in a grocery story, of flimsy weak things that have a bland flavor. I recently learned how to make nixtalized masa for tortillas and the flavor alone is worlds above. It's more satiating and more fibrous. That applies for just about every grain you can think of. Our processing for a smooth uniform flavor in wheats/other grains often strip it of nutrients and insoluble fibers. The fibers are essential for gut health and the nutrients means we are less satiated and need more food to have a similar effect if we had had whole-grains that were less/better processed. 

 

With luv,

BD

[BlueDreams]

11 hours ago, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

If you're feeling prompted to do so, then go for it. I mean it's energy drinks...they're not known for being bastions of health by anyone's stretch of the imagination. I'm pretty sure there is exact 2 people in the whole world that believe they're drinking those things for their health. 

That said, I try to be cautious with how I speak about the WoW to others. Namely because I veer on the health freak side of things and people can find it off putting to have me pontificate too much on this. Plus some of my practices are not current common interpretations of the WoW. For example I'm a vegetarian. I would eat meat if I absolute have to....like if it were that or starvation/malnutrition. But I don't live in a time where that's a thing. So I don't. Plus it makes me super bloated. Like painfully so. Do I find aspects of that in the WoW. Yes, personally I do. But I steer away from insisting that that is truly what's taught in it and proclaiming it to the masses, because it's guidance that some may not be able to live by or that their body has other more pressing needs.

For example I had a friend who tried my diet when trying to get healthier from a diet of largely ultra-processed foods. I litterally fed and cooked for her whatever I was eating and she paid half the groceries. Her body did not take it well....often clearing out her bowels soon after a heavier whole-grain meal. Plus she couldn't cook these meals herself. Though she may notice the magic of a homemade butternut squash soup (Of feeling satisfied on smaller amounts and having energy after a meal + YUM!), she couldn't replicate it. It was a diet that was unsustainable for her and not where she needed to be in terms of what she took from the WoW in balance with her overall spiritual and temporal development. Though parts of the word of wisdom have moved more to command then general advice, I think there's wisdom in there that several parts are still guidelines more so that absolutes and I try to avoid placing my diet as the absolute standard for understanding/living the WoW.

There are diets that also have to have some variation. For example my daughter cannot eat a ton of protein or she risks serious illness and potentially acoma, brain damage, or death if allows to go out of control. All grains are higher protein. This means her diet naturally will have less grains than most, even though it's described as the "staff of life" in the WoW. What is generally true, is less true for her and what it means to follow the "spirit of the law" around the WoW will be different for her long term than it was for me.

That said, the WoW is something I deeply cherish and have found many of the blessings promised in it by having it guide my own choices around what I take into my body. So if this feels like where you need to go to better live the WoW and guided by the Spirit, then I commend you in your own journey in figuring that out and doing so.  

With luv,

BD 

[Rain]

59 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Not much. Personally, I think it's more the refining process most of our grains in western diets go through. That alters wheat a lot more than what's happened to it via genetic selection in the last century (though this has led to far less genetic diversity in food, which has other problems). 

This is a somewhat tangential example, but corn is a great/easy example example. When it was grown by natives in the americas, they would  process it using a process called nixtalization. This released much of the nutrients for digestion for humans. This process was lost when it was exported out and the corn became inadequately nutritious, needing other supplemental foods. Fast forward today. Corn tortillas in a grocery story, of flimsy weak things that have a bland flavor. I recently learned how to make nixtalized masa for tortillas and the flavor alone is worlds above. It's more satiating and more fibrous. That applies for just about every grain you can think of. Our processing for a smooth uniform flavor in wheats/other grains often strip it of nutrients and insoluble fibers. The fibers are essential for gut health and the nutrients means we are less satiated and need more food to have a similar effect if we had had whole-grains that were less/better processed. 

 

With luv,

BD

Would you share how you do the corn please?

[MustardSeed]

Sometimes, directives are personal.  Sounds like you are being told to do something, whether it is a directive for the masses or not.  I’d bet there’s a reason for that for you.  In which case, it’s always worth it to listen IMO 

[Calm]

Also https://www.seriouseats.com/nixtamalized-corn-tortilla-masa-recipe

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

If you're feeling prompted to do so, then go for it. I mean it's energy drinks...they're not known for being bastions of health by anyone's stretch of the imagination. I'm pretty sure there is exact 2 people in the whole world that believe they're drinking those things for their health. 

That said, I try to be cautious with how I speak about the WoW to others. Namely because I veer on the health freak side of things and people can find it off putting to have me pontificate too much on this. Plus some of my practices are not current common interpretations of the WoW. For example I'm a vegetarian. I would eat meat if I absolute have to....like if it were that or starvation/malnutrition. But I don't live in a time where that's a thing. So I don't. Plus it makes me super bloated. Like painfully so. Do I find aspects of that in the WoW. Yes, personally I do. But I steer away from insisting that that is truly what's taught in it and proclaiming it to the masses, because it's guidance that some may not be able to live by or that their body has other more pressing needs.

For example I had a friend who tried my diet when trying to get healthier from a diet of largely ultra-processed foods. I litterally fed and cooked for her whatever I was eating and she paid half the groceries. Her body did not take it well....often clearing out her bowels soon after a heavier whole-grain meal. Plus she couldn't cook these meals herself. Though she may notice the magic of a homemade butternut squash soup (Of feeling satisfied on smaller amounts and having energy after a meal + YUM!), she couldn't replicate it. It was a diet that was unsustainable for her and not where she needed to be in terms of what she took from the WoW in balance with her overall spiritual and temporal development. Though parts of the word of wisdom have moved more to command then general advice, I think there's wisdom in there that several parts are still guidelines more so that absolutes and I try to avoid placing my diet as the absolute standard for understanding/living the WoW.

There are diets that also have to have some variation. For example my daughter cannot eat a ton of protein or she risks serious illness and potentially acoma, brain damage, or death if allows to go out of control. All grains are higher protein. This means her diet naturally will have less grains than most, even though it's described as the "staff of life" in the WoW. What is generally true, is less true for her and what it means to follow the "spirit of the law" around the WoW will be different for her long term than it was for me.

That said, the WoW is something I deeply cherish and have found many of the blessings promised in it by having it guide my own choices around what I take into my body. So if this feels like where you need to go to better live the WoW and guided by the Spirit, then I commend you in your own journey in figuring that out and doing so.  

With luv,

BD 

I hope this stays in the realm of the topic, have you tried kefir?

I've been hoping my family tries it, but starting to wonder if I'm one of those crazy people that thinks what works for them will work for everyone. 

And for @Rivers question, I think they've done studies on Monster, and it should be a concern if you get dehydrated, have trouble sleeping or have heart conditions. But like to think of the great quote of everything in moderation. 

[DT_]

16 hours ago, Rivers said:

But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law. 

Don't feel bad, nutritional science is a complete mess right now.

[Rain]

17 hours ago, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  

 

I'm a type 1 diabetic of 44 years.  About 15 years ago I started wondering if I should give up caffeine.  Wasn't hard at home, but there is rarely a choice of drinks, besides water, that is both caffeine and sugar free at restaurants, parties, conferences, work etc.

I finally prayed about it and felt I should give it up and that for me it was part of the WoW.  I didn't feel it was that way for anyone else.  The cool thing was that after about 24 years of diabetes my kidneys were starting to be affected and once I gave up the caffeine the tests went back to normal till a couple of years ago (now they are sometimes normal and sometimes just out of range.)

Anyway, I don't think that the WoW really mattered for that, but personal revelation really did.

I do remember a conference talk years ago, can't remember who or what it was, that said something to the effect of there are a whole lot of of things that the WoW doesn't mention, but it would be wise to discontinue those substances if you found they were detrimental.

17 hours ago, Rivers said:

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

 

[BlueDreams]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

Would you share how you do the corn please?

Calm beat me to it. It's been a day full of family and I haven't had any down time from church on. I would add that I bought my cooking lime via amazon. I couldn't find one at a store near me and could find time to look at my local hispanic foods store. I use a powerful blender/food processor to mash my corn with a little water and a tiny bit of olive oil. You also should probably lean to cautious when blending in water. The last batch I made I added too much water to the blender and had to add whole wheat flour to absorb some of it. They still tasted super good. I like using my cheapo tortilla press and use an oiled ziploc bag with one side cut to slip in the tortilla balls and then remove it more easily from the press without breaking it. When cooking you want a medium high heat on your pan and flip it once its easily mobile on the pan. I cook it a little less on the second side so it's a little more bendy and then I put them on a plate and cover them with a lid to retain moisture. 2 cups of dried corn usually makes me 15-18 small tortillas. Also they mention a corn with a bigger kernal. I had homegrown popcorn on hand, which kernals are a little smaller than regular popcorn. I didn't notice a difference. 

The last time I made it, I added for toppings a soy chorizo sauteed in olive oil with sliced baby carrots (the short way), bell pepper, a little garlic, onion, and sage I think (I switch it up depending on what I have in the garden/fridge). condiments included some garden greens, diced fresh tomato, and a little plan whole-milk yogurt as a sour-cream substitute. They were delish!

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 29, 2022 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hope this stays in the realm of the topic, have you tried kefir?

I've been hoping my family tries it, but starting to wonder if I'm one of those crazy people that thinks what works for them will work for everyone. 

And for @Rivers question, I think they've done studies on Monster, and it should be a concern if you get dehydrated, have trouble sleeping or have heart conditions. But like to think of the great quote of everything in moderation. 

I haven't. I think I have a friend who likes it a lot. My diet at this point is probably best described as whole food, plant based vegetarian. I eat a little bit of egg (1-2 a day...usually 1) and sometimes dairy. Dairy's usually plain yogurt. I buy cow's milk maybe twice a year and have to be judicious with my cheese intake as it can be a migraine trigger in larger amounts. I've learned to like certain vegan cheeses this year especially because of this. Most of my milk is almond or coconut. I really love homemade cashew/almond milk, and have a soft spot for oatmilk if I can find it unsweetened in the store. Also a fan of coconut yogurt, though I'm still perfecting how to make that one at home.  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 29, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I haven't. I think I have a friend who likes it a lot. My diet at this point is probably best described as whole food. plant based vegetarian. I eat a little bit of egg (1-2 a day...usually 1) and sometimes dairy. Dairy's usually plain yogurt. I buy cow's milk maybe twice a year and have to be judicious with my cheese intake as it can be a migraine trigger in larger amounts. I've learned to like certain vegan cheeses this year especially because of this. Most my milk is almond or coconut. I really love homemade cashew/almond milk, and have a soft spot for oatmilk if I can find it unsweetened in the store. Also a fan of coconut yogurt, though I'm still perfecting how to make that one at home.  

 

With luv,

BD

Thanks for taking some time to respond.

[Calm]

weird…ignore

Edited August 29, 2022 by Calm