Caffeine

[pogi]

On 8/28/2022 at 8:02 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Different today in what way? Higher gluten content?

 One type of gluten has increased significantly while another type has decreased significantly, but overall cumulative gluten content has not changed much.  The difficulty with nutritional science is that while we understand how individual dietary components effect health to some degree, we don't really understand the synergistic effect of these components well.   So, while overall there may not appear to be significant changes in the dietary profile of ancient vs modern grains, there is evidence of difference in health effects. 

There have been multiple small studies comparing health effects of Kamut ancient wheat vs modern wheat varieties with some compelling results.  While the studies have their limitations with sample size and equivalent environmental controls in how they are grown, they do show some interesting results from 8 different studies.  Here are some results:

Quote

 In particular, the Kamut flour had a significantly higher % amylose in starch (34.50% compared with 28.12%), higher protein content (16.36% compared with 13.98%) and higher contents of “antioxidant phytochemicals “(polyphenols, carotenoids, flavonoids) and 2,2-diphenyl-1-picrylhydrazyl (DPPH) antiradical activity. The Kamut semolina and flour also contained significantly higher levels of minerals, which could relate to the mineral availability on the growth sites as this strongly affects the mineral content of the grain.

Quote

The Kamut diet resulted in significant reductions in metabolic risk factors (total cholesterol, LDL cholesterol, blood glucose), improved redox status, increased serum potassium and magnesium and significant reductions in circulating levels of pro-inflammatory cytokines.

Quote

 A double-blinded randomised cross-over trial comparing products from Kamut and modern wheats (bread, biscuits, crackers, pasta) with 20 participants with moderate IBS showed amelioration of the severity of IBS symptoms with the Kamut diet only.

Quote

A randomised double blind crossover trial with 22 patients with acute coronary syndrome (ACS) showed reduced risk profiles for those on the Kamut diet, with reduced levels of blood glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol, improved redox status, and a significant reduction in the pro-inflammatory Tumor Necrosis Factor (TNF)-alpha. Finally, Whittaker et al. (2017) used similar grain fractions (although not identical based on the analyses presented) in a randomised double blind crossover trial with 21 patients with type 2 diabetes, showing an improved metabolic profile (reduced levels of blood glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and LDL cholesterol), reduced levels of reactive oxygen species, vascular endothelial growth factor and interleukin-Ira, and a significant increase in total antioxidant capacity.

Quote

These human intervention studies are complemented by a series of four papers by the group of Bordoni comparing the effects of Kamut and conventional bread and durum wheats in rats (Gianotti et al., 2011, Benedetti et al., 2012, Carnevali et al., 2014, Valli et al., 2016). These report benefits of Kamut in protecting against oxidative stress and anti-inflammatory properties, with one paper (Valli et al., 2016) also reporting benefits of Kamut compared with Italian Khorasan wheat.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824670/

While further research and better controls are needed, I found these results interesting.  With generations of hybridization and modification to be more pest resistant, drought resistant, with higher yields and more shelf stable, etc.  I think the cumulative holistic chemical makeup has been fairly significant despite not being able to point to a single major deviation or culprit for adverse effects on health.   When you combine these things with changes in modern processing, fertilization, pesticides, etc. I think that may explain why people seem to be having more reactions with wheat in modern times.   There may be other factors involved to, including the quantity of wheat we consume compared to previous generations, for example.  

Edited August 29, 2022 by pogi

[JAHS]

On 8/27/2022 at 9:39 PM, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

Technically speaking if you want to pass a temple recommend interview the WoW refers only to hot black coffee and hot black tea. Anything else is up to your own interpretation and judgment and personal medical condition. Anything you stop taking or start eating that improves your overall health, can also have a positive effect on your spiritual well-being.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Technically speaking if you want to pass a temple recommend interview the WoW refers only to hot black coffee and hot black tea.

Not according to the prophets:

Quote

In recent publications for Church members, Church leaders have clarified that several substances are prohibited by the Word of Wisdom, including vaping or e-cigarettes, green tea, and coffee-based products.

And from the link contained within the Official Church Statement:

Quote

The word coffee isn’t always in the name of coffee drinks. So, before you try what you think is just some new milkshake flavor, here are a couple of rules of thumb: (1) If you’re in a coffee shop (or any other shop that’s well-known for its coffee), the drink you’re ordering probably has coffee in it, so either never buy drinks at coffee shops or always ask if there’s coffee in it. (2) Drinks with names that include café or caffé, mocha, latte, espresso, or anything ending in -ccino are coffee and are against the Word of Wisdom.

Green tea and black tea are both made from the leaves of the exact same tea plant. The only difference is that the leaves in black tea are fermented and in green tea they’re not. They’re both tea and against the Word of Wisdom. Some drinks have tea in them but don’t advertise that fact, so always check the ingredients. Also, iced tea is still tea.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[JAHS]

30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

30 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Technically speaking if you want to pass a temple recommend interview the WoW refers only to hot black coffee and hot black tea.

Not according to the prophets:

Quote

In recent publications for Church members, Church leaders have clarified that several substances are prohibited by the Word of Wisdom, including vaping or e-cigarettes, green tea, and coffee-based products ...

The word coffee isn’t always in the name of coffee drinks. So, before you try what you think is just some new milkshake flavor, here are a couple of rules of thumb: (1) If you’re in a coffee shop (or any other shop that’s well-known for its coffee), the drink you’re ordering probably has coffee in it, so either never buy drinks at coffee shops or always ask if there’s coffee in it. (2) Drinks with names that include café or caffé, mocha, latte, espresso, or anything ending in -ccino are coffee and are against the Word of Wisdom.

Green tea and black tea are both made from the leaves of the exact same tea plant. The only difference is that the leaves in black tea are fermented and in green tea they’re not. They’re both tea and against the Word of Wisdom. Some drinks have tea in them but don’t advertise that fact, so always check the ingredients. Also, iced tea is still tea.

Well the original interpretation for "hot drinks" was hot black coffee and hot black tea. The list of additional items could go a lot longer than what has been said recently.  I have never had any of those things asked of me in any temple recommend interview, but I am smart enough to live the spirit of the law and avoid all those things and others by my own choice.  The main point is to avoid anything that can be addictive or harmful to the body.  I have known some Church leaders that drank Coke and Pepsi like it was an addiction, but still claim they live the word of wisdom. One has to make a personal assessment of how well he or she obeys the word of wisdom.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Well the original interpretation for "hot drinks" was hot black coffee and hot black tea.

I'd be interested to see a reference for this.

[InCognitus]

14 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Well the original interpretation for "hot drinks" was hot black coffee and hot black tea. The list of additional items could go a lot longer than what has been said recently.  I have never had any of those things asked of me in any temple recommend interview, but I am smart enough to live the spirit of the law and avoid all those things and others by my own choice.  The main point is to avoid anything that can be addictive or harmful to the body.  I have known some Church leaders that drank Coke and Pepsi like it was an addiction, but still claim they live the word of wisdom. One has to make a personal assessment of how well he or she obeys the word of wisdom.

One of the earliest statements that I know of on this topic was a statement from President Hyrum Smith, published in the Times and Seasons, Vol. 3, p. 800 (June 1, 1842) :

"And again `hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;' there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not.  I say it does refer to tea, and coffee."

I don't think the "hotness" of these drinks is the problem with them, or even the "strongness" of the "strong drinks" for alcoholic beverages.  This simply seems to be the common way of referring to them.

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

40 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Well the original interpretation for "hot drinks" was hot black coffee and hot black tea. The list of additional items could go a lot longer than what has been said recently.  I have never had any of those things asked of me in any temple recommend interview, but I am smart enough to live the spirit of the law and avoid all those things and others by my own choice.  The main point is to avoid anything that can be addictive or harmful to the body.  I have known some Church leaders that drank Coke and Pepsi like it was an addiction, but still claim they live the word of wisdom. One has to make a personal assessment of how well he or she obeys the word of wisdom.

One of the earliest statements that I know of on this topic was a statement from President Hyrum Smith, published in the Times and Seasons, Vol. 3, p. 800 (June 1, 1842) :

"And again `hot drinks are not for the body, or belly;' there are many who wonder what this can mean; whether it refers to tea, or coffee, or not.  I say it does refer to tea, and coffee."

I don't think the "hotness" of these drinks is the problem with them, or even the "strongness" of the "strong drinks" for alcoholic beverages.  This simply seems to be the common way of referring to them.

I have also heard that the scientific recommendation of the day for everyone was that hot drinks can damage the stomach if they are too hot. It was the temperature of the drink and not necessarily the ingredients that were to be avoided. 

[mrmarklin]

On 8/27/2022 at 9:39 PM, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

To each his own. I couldn’t survive without Diet Coke. 🥴

[JAHS]

42 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

49 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Well the original interpretation for "hot drinks" was hot black coffee and hot black tea.

I'd be interested to see a reference for this.

 Elder John A. Widtsoe, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reported the following:
“The Word of Wisdom contains certain very important warnings. It declares that alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee are not good for the body. The revelation says “hot drinks,” but before the revelation was a year old, “hot drinks” were defined to include tea and coffee” (Elder John A. Widtsoe, Conference Report, April 1926).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said to the Saints:
"I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

I doubt anyone drank them cold on purpose.

[JAHS]

7 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

To each his own. I couldn’t survive without Diet Coke. 🥴

I have known a few General Authorities who felt the same way.

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

 Elder John A. Widtsoe, of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reported the following:
“The Word of Wisdom contains certain very important warnings. It declares that alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee are not good for the body. The revelation says “hot drinks,” but before the revelation was a year old, “hot drinks” were defined to include tea and coffee” (Elder John A. Widtsoe, Conference Report, April 1926).

The Prophet Joseph Smith said to the Saints:
"I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said 'hot drinks' in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. Tea and coffee are what the Lord meant when he said 'hot drinks.'(Johnson, J. H., A Voice from the Mountains, p. 12)

I doubt anyone drank them cold on purpose.

Yep, the authoritative definition has been clear and consistent from the beginning: tea and coffee. No mention of colour or temperature.

[JAHS]

18 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep, the authoritative definition has been clear and consistent from the beginning: tea and coffee. No mention of colour or temperature.

Doesn't the word "hot" suggest temperature?

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Doesn't the word "hot" suggest temperature?

That word is not used in either of the explanations/clarifications your provided. The question is: What is meant by the term 'hot drinks' in the Word of Wisdom? And the answer is: tea and coffee. Tea doesn't cease being tea if one doesn't finish the entire cup straightaway, and I'm unaware of any prophet who has suggested that it does.

I made myself a hot chocolate at work this morning. Twice I popped it in the microwave to warm it back up from lukewarm. Did it ever cease being hot chocolate?

[Scott Lloyd]

45 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

To each his own. I couldn’t survive without Diet Coke. 🥴

 

37 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I have known a few General Authorities who felt the same way.

Which speaks to its habit-forming property and constitutes a very good reason to avoid it, does it not? (Unless you are engaging in overblown hyperbole when you say you “couldn’t survive” without it). 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[manol]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:47 PM, Calm said:

The spirit of the Word of Wisdom for me is to avoid in general things that aren’t healthy and those that alter mood artificially for recreational reasons.  I think it is very worthwhile to consciously make your life closer to what is your inspired ideal of lifestyle, whether spiritual, emotional, and physical.  (emphasis mine)

Agreed!!

For some people that may mean following the letter of the law when it comes to religious dietary restrictions.

And for some it may mean following the spirit of the law. 

"Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." -Jesus Christ

"The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."  - the Apostle Paul

"A Word of Wisdom... not by commandment or constraint..." - Joseph Smith

On 8/27/2022 at 11:39 PM, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.

On which two commandments hang all the law and the prophets?  (The Word of Wisdom isn't one of them.)  If you are better able to serve God and/or your neighbor with a little help from an occasional Monster, imo your priorities and your heart are in the right place. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by manol

[Tacenda]

I can't get over that green tea is a no no. When I was fully in I remember calling the church office building to ask about green tea. It's when I started my quest to prevent a most likely inherited early onset Alzheimer's situation and had heard of the benefits. I spoke with a sweet sister and she had me speak with someone, but now I don't remember what they said, haha. But wonder if members need to get a doctor's okay to be able to pass the WoW question. But hopefully they drink it and follow their own mind on it. If it's obedience the church wants than I draw the line on that one.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/top-10-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-green-tea

Edited August 31, 2022 by Tacenda

[Rivers]

 

[Stargazer]

On 8/28/2022 at 5:39 AM, Rivers said:

I work graveyard shifts.  I like to have a Monster every now and then.  I realize that I am technically not breaking the Word of Wisdom.  But I still have this nagging feeling that I am breaking the spirit of the law.  I know that I have no place to judge coffee and tea drinkers.  
 

As far as I know, there isn’t a logical reason why energy drinks are kosher while tea and coffee are not.  It’s an obedience thing.  Modern church leaders define “hot drinks” as specifically tea and coffee and expect us to abide by this restriction to be temple worthy.

But I am contemplating ditching the energy drinks to more fully comply with the spirit of the law and hopefully get more of those spiritual treasures promised in section 89.  Is this a worthwhile endeavor?

This comes up occasionally here (surprised you hadn't already seen the previous arguments over this), and what I am about to write will come across as a rant, for which I apologize in advance.

First of all, do what you think is right. My rant below is what I think is right. You're the one who must answer the temple recommend questions for yourself, not me.

Energy drinks can be quite unhealthy, apart from the caffeine. I, too, drink Monsters occasionally. My favorite used to be Monster Assault, but then they changed the formula and I can't abide the new taste. A previous bishop told me that his dad nearly died from drinking too many Monsters. I think he had an underlying health issue, but...

Here's the problem with this "breaking the spirit of the WoW". Every doggone thing you can consume can be used to break its spirit. This is because it is a health rule. Eat too many candy bars? Breaking the spirit (because of a host of possible problems). Drink too much water? Breaking the spirit (because hyponatremia). So why aren't sugar and water breaking the spirit? Because they are not the Word of Wisdom, that's why. Getting all hung up on "the spirit of" leads to Phariseeism. How many steps can you take on the Sabbath before you're breaking the Sabbath? The Pharisees had an answer. 

Caffeine is not in the Word of Wisdom. If it were, chocolate would be verboten, too (the cacao tree produces small amounts, in addition to theobromine, which has similar properties). Around thirty plant species are known to contain caffeine. Why hasn't the church put an interdict on members consuming products made from all these plants? Because caffeine is not in the Word of Wisdom.

The answer to your actual question is found in the Word of Wisdom. It says "hot drinks".  Regardless of the temperature, what were "hot drinks" in the time of Joseph Smith when this revelation was received? Joseph didn't record any specifics, but his brother Hyrum, who surely knew what it meant, said that it meant coffee and tea. Quite specifically. Surely the people at that time could heat up milk and drink it, but that isn't the Word of Wisdom, either. Now, it would have been nice if the Lord had specified which "hot drinks" He meant, but He didn't. 

So, eat candy bars, drink Monsters, colas, water, warm milk, peppermint tea, and so on. But stay the heck away from coffee and tea. Even if the caffeine has been removed, because again, the Word of Wisdom is not caffeine, it's coffee and tea. And by "tea" is meant the plant called by the scientific name camellia sinensis. Not peppermint tea, not chamomile tea, but what we call "black tea".  This includes Oolong tea, green tea, and every other form of camellia sinensis. 

I have known members who will not drink peppermint tea because of that word "tea". But the word "tea" means the plant camellia sinensis. It is always prepared by soaking its leaves in hot water to extract the soluble chemicals the plant is known for. This process of soaking in hot water is technically making an "infusion" of the plant material. But because the predominant way of preparing tea for drinking was to infuse the leaves, the word "tea" got reused in place of infusion. So people started saying "peppermint tea," possibly because "peppermint infusion" sounds odd. I suppose if you mixed tea leaves with peppermint leaves you could legitimately call the result "peppermint tea" though. 

Another slight problem with forbidding something because of the word "tea" being associated with it is that the people of the British Isles who are LDS would have to give up eating meals altogether, because any meal there can be referred to as a "tea." You know, "teatime"? It's a cultural thing, because tea is almost always drunk for meals in the British Isles, so eating a meal became synonymous with the beverage that was always drunk at the time. I ran into this when I first lived in England in 1969. I'm an American, and new to the country I visited one of my new friends from church, and I was about to head home in the late afternoon when my friend's mum ("mom" in Americanese) asked me if I wanted to stay for tea. I was shocked! Here they were active members of the church, the dad was a high councilor, and so forth, and they were inviting me to drink tea! I was shocked, said that I was expected to be home for dinner, and left at that point. They looked at me puzzled by my reaction, because I'm sure I looked spooked. I learned later that "stay for tea" in the evening meant having the evening meal, and no tea need be involved!! Breakfast isn't as frequently called "tea", so you could probably eat breakfast, but not the other meals.

Yes, I'm ranting. Because I am anti-Phariseeism.

Another thing, the WoW does not say you can't drink alcohol. It says you shouldn't drink wine or "strong drink", but "mild drinks" are OK. Now, I happen to believe that beer of low alcoholic content is "mild". But current understanding proscribes beer, so there we are, even if the WoW is talking about mild drinks made from grains, which obviously means beers. No problem, beer tastes like crap anyway.  How do I know? I wasn't born in the church. If alcohol itself was the problem, then you couldn't use some vegetable extracts, like vanilla, because alcohol is used to extract the flavors. And it's a pretty high percentage. Another problem would be eating fruit that has been off the vine or tree for a little too long, because the microorganisms that make alcohol from sugar get busy long before you might think.

Sorry for the rant.

 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Stargazer

[Rivers]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

 No problem, beer tastes like crap anyway.  

 

Agreed.  I tried non-alcoholic beer once.  I was told it tasted like the real thing.  Didn’t like it.  

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I can't get over that green tea is a no no. When I was fully in I remember calling the church office building to ask about green tea. It's when I started my quest to prevent a most likely inherited early onset Alzheimer's situation and had heard of the benefits. I spoke with a sweet sister and she had me speak with someone, but now I don't remember what they said, haha. But wonder if members need to get a doctor's okay to be able to pass the WoW question. But hopefully they drink it and follow their own mind on it. If it's obedience the church wants than I draw the line on that one.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/top-10-evidence-based-health-benefits-of-green-tea

Green tea and black tea are both tea. It would be inconsistent to allow the one and not the other. 
 

From Wikipedia: 

Green tea is a type of tea that is made from Camellia sinensis leaves and buds that have not undergone the same withering and oxidation process used to make oolong teasand black teas.^[1] 

Edited September 1, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Green tea and black tea are both tea. It would be inconsistent to allow the one and not the other. 

The difference between them is literally the same difference between a freshly cut avocado that has bright green flesh (green tea) and a cut avocado that has been allowed to sit out and go brown (black tea).

Edited September 1, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The difference between them is literally the same difference between a freshly cut avocado that has bright green flesh (green tea) and a cut avocado that has been allowed to sit out and go brown (black tea).

It's just that I don't think anyone has said a Monster is healthy like they say how green tea is, so one is against the WoW as far as getting a recommend and the other is not going to keep you from getting one. It doesn't make sense, and I think since we're able to drastically change the temple ceremony, why not the tea?

[BlueDreams]

14 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This comes up occasionally here (surprised you hadn't already seen the previous arguments over this), and what I am about to write will come across as a rant, for which I apologize in advance.

First of all, do what you think is right. My rant below is what I think is right. You're the one who must answer the temple recommend questions for yourself, not me.

Energy drinks can be quite unhealthy, apart from the caffeine. I, too, drink Monsters occasionally. My favorite used to be Monster Assault, but then they changed the formula and I can't abide the new taste. A previous bishop told me that his dad nearly died from drinking too many Monsters. I think he had an underlying health issue, but...

Here's the problem with this "breaking the spirit of the WoW". Every doggone thing you can consume can be used to break its spirit. This is because it is a health rule. Eat too many candy bars? Breaking the spirit (because of a host of possible problems). Drink too much water? Breaking the spirit (because hyponatremia). So why aren't sugar and water breaking the spirit? Because they are not the Word of Wisdom, that's why. Getting all hung up on "the spirit of" leads to Phariseeism. How many steps can you take on the Sabbath before you're breaking the Sabbath? The Pharisees had an answer. 

Caffeine is not in the Word of Wisdom. If it were, chocolate would be verboten, too (the cacao tree produces small amounts, in addition to theobromine, which has similar properties). Around thirty plant species are known to contain caffeine. Why hasn't the church put an interdict on members consuming products made from all these plants? Because caffeine is not in the Word of Wisdom.

The answer to your actual question is found in the Word of Wisdom. It says "hot drinks".  Regardless of the temperature, what were "hot drinks" in the time of Joseph Smith when this revelation was received? Joseph didn't record any specifics, but his brother Hyrum, who surely knew what it meant, said that it meant coffee and tea. Quite specifically. Surely the people at that time could heat up milk and drink it, but that isn't the Word of Wisdom, either. Now, it would have been nice if the Lord had specified which "hot drinks" He meant, but He didn't. 

So, eat candy bars, drink Monsters, colas, water, warm milk, peppermint tea, and so on. But stay the heck away from coffee and tea. Even if the caffeine has been removed, because again, the Word of Wisdom is not caffeine, it's coffee and tea. And by "tea" is meant the plant called by the scientific name camellia sinensis. Not peppermint tea, not chamomile tea, but what we call "black tea".  This includes Oolong tea, green tea, and every other form of camellia sinensis. 

I have known members who will not drink peppermint tea because of that word "tea". But the word "tea" means the plant camellia sinensis. It is always prepared by soaking its leaves in hot water to extract the soluble chemicals the plant is known for. This process of soaking in hot water is technically making an "infusion" of the plant material. But because the predominant way of preparing tea for drinking was to infuse the leaves, the word "tea" got reused in place of infusion. So people started saying "peppermint tea," possibly because "peppermint infusion" sounds odd. I suppose if you mixed tea leaves with peppermint leaves you could legitimately call the result "peppermint tea" though. 

Another slight problem with forbidding something because of the word "tea" being associated with it is that the people of the British Isles who are LDS would have to give up eating meals altogether, because any meal there can be referred to as a "tea." You know, "teatime"? It's a cultural thing, because tea is almost always drunk for meals in the British Isles, so eating a meal became synonymous with the beverage that was always drunk at the time. I ran into this when I first lived in England in 1969. I'm an American, and new to the country I visited one of my new friends from church, and I was about to head home in the late afternoon when my friend's mum ("mom" in Americanese) asked me if I wanted to stay for tea. I was shocked! Here they were active members of the church, the dad was a high councilor, and so forth, and they were inviting me to drink tea! I was shocked, said that I was expected to be home for dinner, and left at that point. They looked at me puzzled by my reaction, because I'm sure I looked spooked. I learned later that "stay for tea" in the evening meant having the evening meal, and no tea need be involved!! Breakfast isn't as frequently called "tea", so you could probably eat breakfast, but not the other meals.

Yes, I'm ranting. Because I am anti-Phariseeism.

Another thing, the WoW does not say you can't drink alcohol. It says you shouldn't drink wine or "strong drink", but "mild drinks" are OK. Now, I happen to believe that beer of low alcoholic content is "mild". But current understanding proscribes beer, so there we are, even if the WoW is talking about mild drinks made from grains, which obviously means beers. No problem, beer tastes like crap anyway.  How do I know? I wasn't born in the church. If alcohol itself was the problem, then you couldn't use some vegetable extracts, like vanilla, because alcohol is used to extract the flavors. And it's a pretty high percentage. Another problem would be eating fruit that has been off the vine or tree for a little too long, because the microorganisms that make alcohol from sugar get busy long before you might think.

Sorry for the rant.

 

Just as you may be ranting, this may be nit-picky. 
 

I’ve never thought of “spirit of the law” as necessarily a gateway to pharisaism. Usually when I think spirit of the law I’m think more what is the purpose or general principle behind the law and how may it apply to me. When I think of pharisaism I think more rigid interpretations that may often come from common assumptions and get out of hand. 
For example, my mother is one of those who over interprets tea to be anything with the word tea in it. Fruit tea, herbal tea it’s all the same to her. I could hand her a peppermint leaf, she would taste it, and then I would put said leaf in hot water and she would all the sudden hesitate or refuse it. Her hesitation isn’t based on a deep and personal exploration of the WoW. It’s a derivative of her culture and family traditions that had been particularly rigid. She has no reasoning behind it. Just an assumption that tea means tea and therefore she shouldn’t. 
my mom likewise doesn’t drink caffeinated drinks. Again, this is not from some “spirit of the law” moment where she was nudged to do it via spiritual promptings and/or careful study. It’s because it was suggested in the 90’s and that recommendation became law that should be done. That is pharisaical to me. I also don’t drink caffeinated sodas. Technically I barely drink any soda (basically none, if you don’t count the martinelli cut with soda water that I have around Xmas). Not because I feel I have to, but because my personal introspection and study has led me to avoid sodas and too much processed sugars in general. I still have a caffeinated tea that I drink when I need help with mild migraines or am at risk of getting one as I can’t take regular over the counter migraine pills (they make me dizzy/nauseous). I don’t expect everyone to be like me on this. And I don’t get the sweats if someone hands me some store-bought chocolate cake (ate a tiny bit this weekend). It just as a general principle I believe the WoW is about caring for one’s body with the best sources of food available and to avoid substances that can have a detrimental/controlling effect on us to receive the blessing of greater health and wisdom. People may like soda and processed sugar, but I haven’t met anyone crazy enough to state it’s inherently good for us. 

For the record I’m not a fan of pharisaical thought. It makes rules for rules sake with little meaning behind it. It increases rigidity and reduces both introspection and inspection as to the why for what a person does. I do think there’s value in “spirit of the law” processing as i defined it. 
 

with luv, 

BD 
 

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's just that I don't think anyone has said a Monster is healthy like they say how green tea is, so one is against the WoW as far as getting a recommend and the other is not going to keep you from getting one. It doesn't make sense, and I think since we're able to drastically change the temple ceremony, why not the tea?

To be fair, green tea can have problems with drinking it too, usually tied with the high caffeine levels, though lower that coffee and black tea. And many of the benefits are ones found with just following the WoW dietary suggestions (a largely plant based diet with more emphasis on seasonal and whole foods) without said side effects. I think there's this weird trend in our society to prop up one drink or food as some sort of health wonder, when really it's the aggregate diet that makes the biggest difference. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

To be fair, green tea can have problems with drinking it too, usually tied with the high caffeine levels, though lower that coffee and black tea. And many of the benefits are ones found with just following the WoW dietary suggestions (a largely plant based diet with more emphasis on seasonal and whole foods) without said side effects. I think there's this weird trend in our society to prop up one drink or food as some sort of health wonder, when really it's the aggregate diet that makes the biggest difference. 

 

With luv,

BD

 

I've only had an energy drink once, other than a few sips from people saying, "You have to try this!" It's nasty stuff, IMO. But I had to drive from Utah to Ohio alone, and about the middle of Wyoming, I was a little tired. I pulled off at a truck stop and had a short nap in the car, then I went in and bought an energy drink, which did the trick and kept me awake. My diet is very much in line with what you say above. I don't eat a lot of meat, and I avoid processed foods. Along with daily exercise and weight loss, I feel much better now than I did in my 40s.