Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith?

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

https://www.ldsdaily.com/world/joseph-smith-descendants-believe-theyve-discovered-a-photograph-of-joseph-smith/

Of course this relies on the testimony of the historian that you already are questioning the integrity of. 

While this quote provides evidence that Foster did indeed make a daguerreotype of Joseph Smith, it also raises a new question that may cast some doubt on the locket being a picture of Joseph Smith.  The locket itself is said to have the initials of Joseph Smith III, so why would Joseph Smith III claim that Foster took a picture of his father instead of simply saying "I actually have a picture of my father that Foster took"?   In some of the reports it is suggested that the family was trying to keep it private and hidden from the public, so maybe that is why he didn't admit to having it - maybe he didn't want to be hounded by the public for it.    
 

if he took it to the Library of Congress maybe he wanted to let them who owned it, is why he attached his name to it or someone else did? It seems the right evidence but wrong photo, it's this Carter photo of a painting or painting of a photo. I'm less and less convinced it's not Joseph Smith. It also seems dubious that Foster did take a photo of him, maybe Joseph Smith II took the photo of this Majors painting to the LofC. All of this though was argued out years ago though and it seems dubious as to the conclusions. 

[InCognitus]

8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

but her I am.

I believe that topic is being covered in a different thread.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Duncan said:

http://silverepicent.com/photofound/photofound/Photograph_Found/The_Photograph.html

according to this site, Joseph Smith III took this photo to the Library of Congress, not the one in the locket-which is telling

I thought this one was thought to be a photo of a painting or something…but I agree that JS III using this one suggests he thought it a good enough likeness.  He might have not wanted though to part with the locket or was worried the original might be damaged if copied or it might not have been his to use.

Emma died in 1879, the same year JS III copyrighted the photograph.  I wonder if he did it before or after, since the locket appears to have been Emma’s.  And would she have given it to JS III or to one of her daughter-in-laws? (Her only surviving daughter was Julia, who was adopted and while living with Emma when Emma died, died herself the following year.  She apparently had no children herself…a reason not to give her the locket if it was meant to stay in the family.)

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm just sitting here wondering how Scott can be so prickly about such a mundane topic. I thought I was over being surprised, but her I am.

A number of us are being nit picky about it.  It is a fantastic find if actually Joseph, so demands significant evidence imo.  Scott isn’t unusually invested in the subject, imo.

[ttribe]

16 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I believe that topic is being covered in a different thread.

Stupid typo!

[ttribe]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

A number of us are being nit picky about it.  It is a fantastic find if actually Joseph, so demands significant evidence imo.  Scott isn’t unusually invested in the subject, imo.

I'm referring to his response to pogi.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm referring to his response to pogi.

I think you are overstating his response and derailing into personal. (boardnannying…I should report myself)

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[InCognitus]

22 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Stupid typo!

I know, it was just funny.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Do you deny that the forensic rendition of the death mask looks like the death mask?

No. I just don’t think either looks much like the painting. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 

I wonder for those who think the man looks too old if you are thinking of more modern faces which are less exposed to sun, wind, and toil. Plus all the physical abuse and deprivation Joseph went through in his adult years (the times in jail, attacks).  It would be interesting to compare the wear and tear on this face to other 38 year olds living on the frontier from that time period. 

 

Wouldn’t those things be reflected in the death mask, though? 
 

Added later: It was common in those days to use a death mask to preserve a person’s likeness. One could perhaps examine death masks of other individuals to see if the image typically appears younger than a photograph of the same person. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No. I just don’t think either looks much like the painting. 

I guess that is the riddle for me...how could anyone really think that?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

Really?

I'm not buying it.    

 

And I don’t buy your opinion, regardless of how many times you re-post the images. 
 

The nose appears thinner and the bridge longer in the painting, the face much more gaunt and, yes, older. The death mask and associated forensic image are much more reflective of a man in his late 30s. I’ve seen the painting throughout my life and never liked it, precisely because it scarcely resembles other images of the prophet — which are suggested by the death mask. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And I don’t buy your opinion, regardless of how many times you re-post the images. 
 

The nose appears thinner in the painting, the face much more gaunt and, yes, older. The death mask and associated forensic image are much more reflective of a man in his late 30s. I’ve seen the painting throughout my life and never liked it, precisely because it scarcely resembles other images of the prophet — which are suggested by the death mask. 

You are free to your opinion.  But any artist would be proud of the resemblance between those two renditions.  I could see those two paintings being part of a collection or series from the same artist, honestly (with only slight differences in style).  

I see a resemblance in all of them, but a MUCH closer resemblance in the painting and the death mask rendition, than I see in the painting and the photo.  

How you could think that those two renditions don't resemble each other is beyond my ability to perceive.  Your descriptive words are not convincing my eyes.  Such is the mystery of perception I suppose.  

When you get down to the cold hard measurements, one thing that can't be denied is that the photo does indeed match the death mask at at 19 of 21 points of measurement of comparison.  With that many different points of likeness, it would be hard for them not to resemble each other.  

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

  I could see those two paintings being part of a collection or series from the same artist, honestly.  

We should get an artist or three to give their opinion. I don’t know your background or Scott’s…and all faces look too different or too alike to me (even my own), so I don’t trust my opinion here; but if one is trained, one will notice differences much more, just as a musician may catch errors or different intonations than an amateur might.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

 

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

I'm just sitting here wondering how Scott can be so prickly about such a mundane topic. I thought I was over being surprised, but here I am.

Maybe he doesn't approve of his look. After seeing the renditions in church publications for all these years that appear more angelic.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Tacenda

[teddyaware]

Has anyone here seen this one before? This one is said to have been discovered about 10 to 15 years ago, and it claims to feature the likenesses of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. If this is indeed a Daguerreotype of the prophet, it looks like he just walked out of a barber shop…

Edited July 22, 2022 by teddyaware

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

But any artist would be proud of the resemblance between those two renditions. 

Any true Scotsman?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Edited July 22, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Any true Scotsman?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

No, Scotsmen suck at art (just joking, in case you can’t see that either).

 

[Rain]

 

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I bet the church would rather it not be him, because to me, the photo doesn't have the same light/spark in the face as does the portraits of Joseph. I'll just say it, the guy in the photo doesn't look like a nice guy, and that is so sad how judgy that sounds. Also, the nose looking straight on doesn't seem like it's as arched but if he were to turn sideways you might then see the arch.

I have no opinions of if it is Joseph or not, but I find it interesting what you said here. It is the first picture of "Joseph Smith" that I have liked.  All the paintings have bothered me. Funny how our experiences change our perceptions.

---

Not a reply to Tacenda, but to the thread in general - as far as the age everyone is talking about I think it could go either way.  All my life people have thought I was younger and sometimes far younger than I am. And that has held whether I was under, over or average weight.  Sometimes age is really hard to tell.  I went out with a guy in high school that looked aged enough that the picture and him look about the same age. The guy was 18. 

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

It is the first picture of what Joseph Smith is supposed to look like that I have liked.  All the paintings have bothered me.

Same!

 

[Calm]

From another friend, not a historian, but a scholar and gentleman  :

”Discussions I’ve been privy to have indicated that the death mask may have accentuated Joseph and Hyrum’s features. Their bodies were exposed to hot, humid, summer air for 24 hours before the masks were created; this could have caused the extremities (including eyes, nose, and lips) to become bloated.

 

Here’s an image of the daguerreotype (flipped to correct the mirror-reverse that was typical of most daguerreotypes) next to an image of the death mask. The hairline certainly matches, and the other features seem to line up.”

 

 

I have lived in Illinois for several years. Late June was not pleasant in my view many of those years.  Humidity was nasty. I assume that hadn’t changed much. And we know it was hot.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/physical-evidence-at-carthage-jail-and-what-it-reveals-about-the-assassination-of-joseph-and-hyrum-smith/

Edited July 23, 2022 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Has anyone here seen this one before? This one is said to have been discovered about 10 to 15 years ago, and it claims to feature the likenesses of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. If this is indeed a Daguerreotype of the prophet, it looks like he just walked out of a barber shop…

My mother had that one framed on her bookcase.  Back when she still believed in the gospel.

[Calm]

“Death Masks of Hyrum and Joseph Smith
The two oldest known sets of death masks of Hyrum and Joseph Smith are located in the Museum of Church History and Art in Salt Lake City (Fig. 1). The so-called Dibble masks, which are on permanent display in the Museum, first appear in the historical record in 1849, but the date and circumstances of their creation are uncertain. The original death mask molds were made from the faces of the martyred brothers sometime prior to the public viewing on June 29, 1844, and are not extant. It is believed that George Cannon, who participated in making the original molds, originally owned this set of masks. Upon Cannon’s death in August 1844, it is believed that William Rowley ob- tained the masks, since a September 1849 letter reports that Philo Dibble had recently purchased the masks from “Brother Rowley.”20 The “pedestal” death masks—so named for the rough form or pedestal that extends from the back of each mask—are of less certain provenance. This set of masks has been in the possession of the LDS Church since at least the 1930s. Mark Staker, mu- seum curator, has proposed that these masks were copies of the Dibble masks made by John Taylor in 1849.21

One important detail differentiates the two sets: the chins of the Dibble masks have been broken off and repaired. Notably, the original chin of the Dibble Hyrum mask was lost and a new, larger chin was formed on the mask. Because the pedestal masks have not been significantly damaged, I consider them to be more accurate and have chosen to use them in the forensic images included in this article. However, I’ve duplicated the steps of this study using the Dibble masks as well and have arrived at the same approximate results and conclusions.
Mention should be made here about the reliability of Joseph’s death mask, because some doubt it is an accurate representation of his face in life. Specifically, some claim that the violent events of his death created facial fractures which distorted his lower face, making the mask elongated compared to his actual face in life.22 However, the accuracy of the proportions of his mask to his face in life can be easily demonstrated. On June 25, 1842, Joseph sat for profile artist Sutcliffe Maudsley, who traced the profiles of his subjects in order to produce his artwork.23 Comparisons of the mask to Maudsley’s drawings reveal a near-exact profile match: the forehead, nose, lips and chin all align very closely (Fig. 2). The only reasonable explanation for the close- ness of this match is that both Maudsley’s drawings and the death masks were derived from Joseph’s natural, undistorted head.”

https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Skulls-and-Crossed-Bones-A-Forensic-Study-of-the-Remains-of-Hyrum-and-Joseph-Smith.pdf

Edited July 23, 2022 by Calm

[JAHS]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

From another friend, not a historian, but a scholar and gentleman  :

”Discussions I’ve been privy to have indicated that the death mask may have accentuated Joseph and Hyrum’s features. Their bodies were exposed to hot, humid, summer air for 24 hours before the masks were created; this could have caused the extremities (including eyes, nose, and lips) to become bloated.

 

Here’s an image of the daguerreotype (flipped to correct the mirror-reverse that was typical of most daguerreotypes) next to an image of the death mask. The hairline certainly matches, and the other features seem to line up.”

 

 

I have lived in Illinois for several years. Late June was not pleasant in my view many of those years.  Humidity was nasty. I assume that hadn’t changed much. And we know it was hot.

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/physical-evidence-at-carthage-jail-and-what-it-reveals-about-the-assassination-of-joseph-and-hyrum-smith/

Both of those look like they have been photo shopped to give their heads and faces the same shape.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

Both of those look like they have been photo shopped to give their heads and faces the same shape.

Yes, the daguerreotype has been trimmed to match the mask shape for easier comparison 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Calm