Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith?

[Scott Lloyd]

I remain unconvinced. 
 

The subject of the photo looks older than 38 — by as much as 10 years. The death mask, on the other hand looks about right for that age. 
 

It was common for women to wear lockets back then. 

[Tacenda]

Something came to me while watching this YouTube: I think this recent photo looks similar to Brigham Young and I remember a story that after Joseph's death, while speaking to a congregation some in the audience thought Joseph Smith came back because while Brigham was speaking they saw Joseph and that testified to them that Brigham should be the next president of the church. Now I can see how that could occur.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Tacenda

[pogi]

Never mind, misunderstood 

Edited July 22, 2022 by pogi

[CA Steve]

I think if it turns out to be an actual photo of Joseph Smith that would be incredibly cool but  I have problems with this actually being him.

As others have said it does not look to be someone under forty.  Secondly I am skeptical that a locket like that was not opened by someone who owned it and the photo discovered long before 2022, especially given how easily the current owner was able to pry it open. Whomever put that photo in there would have known who it was, and if it was Joseph Smith, that type of information would have been passed down with the locket. Maybe it is a close male relative from the Joseph Smith III line?

[Duncan]

 

[teddyaware]

13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I remain unconvinced. 
 

The subject of the photo looks older than 38 — by as much as 10 years. The death mask, on the other hand looks about right for that age. 
 

It was common for women to wear lockets back then. 

Here’s a forensic artist’s rendition of Joseph based on his death mask. To me it looks much like the other renditions of Joseph’s face we’ve seen throughout the years, and observe how the death mask rendition doesn’t look anything like the gentleman in the recently discovered photo.

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by teddyaware

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Here’s a forensic artist’s rendition of Joseph based on his death mask. To me it looks much like the other renditions of Joseph’s face we’ve seen throughout the years, and observe how the death mask rendition doesn’t look anything like the gentleman in recently discovered photo.

 

Like someone mentioned could it be that Joseph's nose/face was injured and puffy afterwards?

[teddyaware]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Like someone mentioned could it be that Joseph's nose/face was injured and puffy afterwards?

As I understand it, the process of injury caused facial  “puffiness” doesn’t occur unless the individual is alive long enough for the body to generate the puffiness, and Joseph was stone cold dead very soon after leaping from the window (probably less than a minute)..

[Tacenda]

I bet the church would rather it not be him, because to me, the photo doesn't have the same light/spark in the face as does the portraits of Joseph. I'll just say it, the guy in the photo doesn't look like a nice guy, and that is so sad how judgy that sounds. Also, the nose looking straight on doesn't seem like it's as arched but if he were to turn sideways you might then see the arch.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Tacenda

[Rain]

 

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

the nose to me is what gives it away that it isn't the same person. In the death mask his nose is almost bulbous and the photo doesn't have anything like that. I could care less but I don't think they are the same person. In Joseph's two sons David and Joseph they have thinner noses and Lucy doesn't have that feature.

They don't look alike to me either, but having dabled in painting a little bit I know both style and ability play an important part to what it looks like.  In my limited experience it is much easier to make a building recognizable than a face.

But then I have a facial recognition problem so who knows.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I think if it turns out to be an actual photo of Joseph Smith that would be incredibly cool but  I have problems with this actually being him.

As others have said it does not look to be someone under forty.  Secondly I am skeptical that a locket like that was not opened by someone who owned it and the photo discovered long before 2022, especially given how easily the current owner was able to pry it open. Whomever put that photo in there would have known who it was, and if it was Joseph Smith, that type of information would have been passed down with the locket. Maybe it is a close male relative from the Joseph Smith III line?

I think age is actually difficult to judge on a visual basis, especially across time periods. Oftentimes we'll judge people of earlier times our own age to actually be older than ourselves. There's many factors at play: longevity, nutrition, habitual exposure, hygiene, and fashions can all impact our visual perception of age.

[manol]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As I understand it, the process of injury caused facial “puffiness” doesn’t occur unless the individual is alive long enough for the body to generate the puffiness, and Joseph was stone cold dead very soon after leaping from the window (probably less than a minute)..

Agreed.  My recollection is that there was at least one shoving-match/fight (culminating in shots fired by Joseph) at the door before the final assault that breached the door, and a nose injury could have occurred then. 

Regarding the death mask, the jaw muscles would have relaxed so the lower jaw could have dropped relative to its normal position (like when someone falls asleep in a recliner), de-emphasizing the chin and accentuating the cheek bones.

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 I'll just say it, the guy in the photo doesn't look like a nice guy, and that is so sad how judgy that sounds.

The guy in the photo rocks that hair-do much better than the guy in the portrait does.  That's not a hair-do most men could get away with, and I never thought the guy in the portrait did. 

I grew up in a household with someone who looked a lot like the guy in the photo so I have a positive association with his appearance, but can understand your reaction as well. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by manol

[pogi]

never mind

Edited July 22, 2022 by pogi

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, manol said:

Agreed.  My recollection is that there was at least one shoving-match/fight (culminating in shots fired by Joseph) at the door before the final assault that breached the door, and a nose injury could have occurred then. 

Regarding the death mask, the jaw muscles would have relaxed so the lower jaw could have dropped relative to its normal position (like when someone falls asleep in a recliner), de-emphasizing the chin and accentuating the cheek bones.

The guy in the photo rocks that hair-do much better than the guy in the portrait does.  That's not a hair-do most men could get away with, and I never though the guy in the portrait did. 

I grew up in a household with someone who looked a lot like the guy in the photo so I have a positive association with his appearance, but I can understand your reaction as well. 

I had a visceral reaction and it may be from that. Might be a thing from my past, or the photo reminded me of someone I didn't like. 

[InCognitus]

Is Mark Hofmann out of jail?   Maybe he's into photos now.

[Calm]

From my friend, summary of the JWHA journal article…

Pro…

”This is actually quite exciting. They show photos of outside and inside the locket. Photos of some Smith women wearing the locket in their photos. They explain in detail the provenance of the locket. 

Then, it really gets fun. They show comparisons to the painting and the death mask. Then they have the painting and the photo and circle point on each that correspond with each other. They then show a cutaway with half the face being the photo and the other half the painting. And to make it even more interesting, they superimpose/overlay the photo onto the painting and it is striking how the features correspond.”

Con….

“I should mention that Gracia Jones, a descendant of Joseph and Emma Smith, wrote that initially she seriously doubted it’s Joseph Smith but now at least has an open mind but wants to see more evidence. Jay Dee Bawdon, who has done Joseph Smith sculptures, definitely doesn’t think it’s Joseph Smith. He gave some very good reasons regarding facial features why he doesn’t think it’s Joseph Smith.”

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[InCognitus]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Jay Dee Bawdon, who has done Joseph Smith sculptures, definitely doesn’t think it’s Joseph Smith. He gave some very good reasons regarding facial features why he doesn’t think it’s Joseph Smith.”

These are some of the same reasons I have problems with the photo too, the face in the photo doesn't have the same bone structure as the death mask.

Some arguments have been made in this thread about possible face and nose swelling after Joseph's ordeal in Carthage causing the death mask to show exaggerated nose features.  But making a plaster casting of a face would counteract any of those issues, because applying layers of plaster to a face causes slight compression of the skin, while wrinkles and lines in the face would still show up in the plaster casting.  I have a plaster life mask that I made of myself when I was 17, and the bone and cartilage in my nose is just as prominent in the casting as it was (and is) in real life, even though the casting shows slight evidence of the weight of the plaster on my cheeks and the tip of my nose (in the area of my nose where there is no bone or cartilage).   

And I still think the man in the photo looks to be several years older than a 38 year old man.  

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Here’s a forensic artist’s rendition of Joseph based on his death mask. To me it looks much like the other renditions of Joseph’s face we’ve seen throughout the years, and observe how the death mask rendition doesn’t look anything like the gentleman in the recently discovered photo.

 

Thanks for this. 
 

While the locket photo does look like the painting, I’ve never felt that the painting bears much of a resemblance to the death mask. 

[pogi]

45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks for this. 
 

While the locket photo does look like the painting, I’ve never felt that the painting bears much of a resemblance to the death mask. 

And yet the forensic artist rendition of the death mask (which looks very much like the death mask) looks very much like the painting (which doesn't look like the death mask, according to you), which does look like the picture...figure that riddle out! 

Edited July 22, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

I wonder for those who think the man looks too old if you are thinking of more modern faces which are less exposed to sun, wind, and toil. Plus all the physical abuse and deprivation Joseph went through in his adult years (the times in jail, attacks).  It would be interesting to compare the wear and tear on this face to other 38 year olds living on the frontier from that time period. 
 

There are probably collections one could use to compare as the process was quite popular back then, not sure how to access them online. Maybe find a list of famous people the same age as Joseph and find any daguerreotype of them around that age. Then compare lifestyles and facial wear and tear. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[Duncan]

http://silverepicent.com/photofound/photofound/Photograph_Found/The_Photograph.html

according to this site, Joseph Smith III took this photo to the Library of Congress, not the one in the locket-which is telling

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, pogi said:

And yet the forensic artist rendition of the death mask (which looks very much like the death mask) looks very much like the painting (which doesn't look like the death mask, according to you), which does look like the picture...figure that riddle out! 

I don’t agree that either the forensic rendition from the death mask or the death mask itself looks much like the painting. So the “riddle” is of your own manufacture and is not binding on me. 

[pogi]

23 hours ago, Duncan said:

I wonder if there is any documentary evidence of Joseph sitting for a photo?

Quote

 

Both Larsen and Mackay now believe the daguerreotype is of Joseph Smith. They also believe the photo was taken by Lucian Foster, a convert to the Church who lived with the Smith family before the martyrdom. Mackay shared that Joseph Smith III repeatedly claimed Foster had made a daguerreotype of his father.

“ The family believed that there was one made, and there have been historians from both traditions (Community of Christ and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) who believe that there was one somewhere in the Joseph Smith III family,” he said.

 

https://www.ldsdaily.com/world/joseph-smith-descendants-believe-theyve-discovered-a-photograph-of-joseph-smith/

Of course this relies on the testimony of the historian that you already are questioning the integrity of. 

While this quote provides evidence that Foster did indeed make a daguerreotype of Joseph Smith, it also raises a new question that may cast some doubt on the locket being a picture of Joseph Smith.  The locket itself is said to have the initials of Joseph Smith III, so why would Joseph Smith III claim that Foster took a picture of his father instead of simply saying "I actually have a picture of my father that Foster took"?   In some of the reports it is suggested that the family was trying to keep it private and hidden from the public, so maybe that is why he didn't admit to having it - maybe he didn't want to be hounded by the public for it.    
 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t agree that either the forensic rendition from the death mask or the death mask itself looks much like the painting. So the “riddle” is of your own manufacture and is not binding on me. 

Do you deny that the forensic rendition of the death mask looks like the death mask?

[ttribe]

34 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you deny that the forensic rendition of the death mask looks like the death mask?

I'm just sitting here wondering how Scott can be so prickly about such a mundane topic. I thought I was over being surprised, but here I am.

Edited July 22, 2022 by ttribe