Discovery of Photograph of Joseph Smith?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

They hired facial recognition experts to compare the daguerreotype to Smith’s death mask. The company reported back that 19 of 21 measured features matched, within a 95% confidence interval.

Another expert compared the daguerreotype’s facial features with those seen in the most famous oil painting of Joseph Smith, noting that the hairline and other features were a match and that both images showed the same “distinctive frown line near the left eyebrow,” the article states.

From the article quoted…

I think the top above paragraph probably works better in determining accuracy than trying to eyeball it. 95% confidence…would like to know how that compares to known photos and their death or life masks or what is usually accepted as ‘proving’ a photo is a particular person.
 

Since it doesn’t say how the second expert did the comparison, hard to know how much value to put into it….plus that is dependent on the painter being highly accurate. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, longview said:

The photo is an image of a really rugged frontiersman, the face of intelligence, lips set in tremendous endurance and the eyes of love, compassion and visionary seer.

I appreciate the compliment but the photo is definitely not me.

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, Duncan said:

the nose to me is what gives it away that it isn't the same person. In the death mask his nose is almost bulbous and the photo doesn't have anything like that. I could care less but I don't think they are the same person. In Joseph's two sons David and Joseph they have thinner noses and Lucy doesn't have that feature.

The more pointed nose in the painting doesn't look anything like the death mask either.  Keep in mind that he was shot multiple times and fell out of a 2 story building.  Who knows what kind of damage the nose sustained in the fall and inflammation is to be expected.  

59 minutes ago, Duncan said:

but this is from a society that married really young though, that's creepier to me. Besides who said she was wearing it, did she say that? or is there photo evidence of it?

It's from a photo.

Quote

“The locket shows up on prominent Smith family women through the years,” Mackay said. Bertha Madison Smith, who married one of Joseph Jr. and Emma’s sons, wore it in a portrait in 1869. In 1875, a granddaughter wore it in her wedding portrait, in which the locket was hanging from a chain.

It makes no sense that this would be worn prominently by different daughters and granddaughters and in wedding photos, no less, if it was a picture of anyone other than Joseph - certainly not Frederick.  That would make no sense.  

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, OGHoosier said:

His visage is harsher than I would have expected, though the uncomfortable nature of sitting for a daguerreotype would probably account for that. Those eyes are absolutely penetrating though.  

When using the old photographic methods where the subject had to sit for a long time they were normally told to not try to smile because they would not be able to hold a constant non moving smile  all the way through the exposure time. So they were told to just keep a straight face.

[Duncan]

Just now, pogi said:

The more pointed nose in the painting doesn't look anything like the death mask either.  Keep in mind that he was shot multiple times and fell out of a 2 story building.  Who knows what kind of damage the nose sustained in the fall and inflammation is to be expected.  

It's from a photo.

It makes no sense that this would be worn prominently by different daughters and granddaughters and in wedding photos, no less, if it was a picture of anyone other than Joseph - certainly not Frederick.  That would make no sense.  

That's what I am saying the noses are all different. I couldn't be less convinced it's the same person. I would love to see these photos of these women supposedly wearing it. How does Lachlan Mackay know that? it seems fishy. What I find odd or creepy is Bertha Madison Smith wearing a photo of her father in law, why would she do that? 

“The locket shows up on prominent Smith family women through the years,” Mackay said. Bertha Madison Smith, who married one of Joseph Jr. and Emma’s sons, wore it in a portrait in 1869. In 1875, a granddaughter wore it in her wedding portrait, in which the locket was hanging from a chain."

[OGHoosier]

4 minutes ago, JAHS said:

When using the old photographic methods where the subject had to sit for a long time they were normally told to not try to smile because they would not be able to hold a constant non moving smile  all the way through the exposure time. So they were told to just keep a straight face.

Yeah, that would account for the expression, but somehow his face is more...angular than I expected. 

I think I've been too influence by the chubby-cheeked Joseph from Joseph Smith: Prophet of the Restoration.

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, Duncan said:

That's what I am saying the noses are all different. I couldn't be less convinced it's the same person.

I'm trying to explain why they might all appear a bit different.  I personally think the painting and picture look really close, but no painting is going to be a perfect resemblance - that explains that difference.  Then you have the death mask - I also explained why that nose might look different from the picture too due to trauma and inflammation from a 2 story fall.   That seems perfectly reasonable as to why they might appear a bit different from each other.

25 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 would love to see these photos of these women supposedly wearing it. How does Lachlan Mackay know that? it seems fishy.

It doesn't seem that you read the article:

Quote

Meanwhile, Mackay and Romig tried to verify the find through historical research. Now that they knew the long-rumored daguerreotype was housed inside a locket, they realized that it had, in fact, been “hiding in plain sight” all this time.

Both of these credible historians researched historical records and found the photos with the locket in them.  I don't find any good reason to suspect them of lying, they would want to verify the authenticity just as much as anyone else.  It would be cool to see the photos though. 

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

What I find odd or creepy is Bertha Madison Smith wearing a photo of her father in law, why would she do that? 

Because he was the prophet of the restoration and the most prominent figure of extreme significance in their family history.  That does not seem weird at all to me.  He was what gave their family prominence in their community and church. Again from the article:

Quote

It’s believed that the locket remained in Emma’s possession until her death in 1879 and that she loaned it to female family members for special occasions. It eventually made its way to the family of the RLDS prophet Fred M. Smith (1874–1946), Joseph Jr.’s grandson and Larsen’s grandfather.

Makes sense to me.

If you don't believe it is Joseph Smith Jr. You have to come up with a more credible theory of who it could be.   

How many people have that prominent of a wrinkle line central to their left brow, let alone in the SAME family?  That is a very distinguishing characteristic.  Who else in their family line who has a prominent wrinkle line in that location would be so proudly worn from generation to generation in important family pictures and weddings?   Makes no sense that it would be anyone else.  

The history of the locket seals the deal for me.  There is no really reasonable alternative explanation. 

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm trying to explain why they might all appear a bit different.  I personally think the painting and picture look really close, but no painting is going to be a perfect resemblance - that explains that difference.  Then you have the death mask - I also explained why that nose might look different from the picture too due to trauma and inflammation from a 2 story fall.   That seems perfectly reasonable as to why they might appear a bit different from each other.

It doesn't seem that you read the article:

Both of these credible historians researched historical records and found the photos with the locket in them.  I don't find any good reason to suspect them of lying, they would want to verify the authenticity just as much as anyone else.  It would be cool to see the photos though. 

Because he was the prophet of the restoration and the most prominent figure of extreme significance in their family history.  That does not seem weird at all to me.  He was what gave their family prominence in their community and church. Again from the article:

Makes sense to me.

If you don't believe it is Joseph Smith Jr. You have to come up with a more credible theory of who it could be.   

How many people have that prominent of a wrinkle line central to their left brow, let alone in the SAME family?  That is a very distinguishing characteristic.  Who else in their family line who has a prominent wrinkle line in that location would be so proudly worn from generation to generation in important family pictures and weddings?   Makes no sense that it would be anyone else.  

The history of the locket seals the deal for me.  There is no really reasonable alternative explanation. 

Yes, it took me awhile to notice the wrinkle. That settles it for me. Plus, the death mask has those same deep eye sockets missing in the painting. The eyes and brows are quite different in the painting. With Emma's witness that the painting was not a good likeness, I think we have to go with the mask as the most accurate comparison.

And I've always wondered why JS was always shown with an almost Hollywood boyish look which never seemed to match his ability to elicit such sacrifice from so many. The photo looks like a grown up who would be taken seriously, although he looks a bit haggard and tired which makes sense at that time. 

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

It doesn't seem that you read the article:

I did read the article and I even quoted from it.

 

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Both of these credible historians researched historical records and found the photos with the locket in them.  I don't find any good reason to suspect them of lying, they would want to verify the authenticity just as much as anyone else.  It would be cool to see the photos though. 

I am not accusing them of lying but showing people these photos would help.

 

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Because he was the prophet of the restoration and the most prominent figure of extreme significance in their family history.  That does not seem weird at all to me.  He was what gave their family prominence in their community and church. Again from the article:

but why not someone else? it doesn't have to be Joseph Smith. Until those photos show up of them wearing it, it seems a big hole in the story

 

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

It’s believed

"believed" by people that want the story to be true though. For all we know they want notoriety, knowing that no other credible photo exists. Is there any documentary evidence he even sat for a photo? 

This doesn't help the case , that the article mentions because I read it, that Foster set up his photo shop until after Joseph's death in June. As I say it would help to see some evidence that Foster even took the photo. All that exists is circumstantial evidence that it is Joseph Smith, aside from the fact it doesn't look like him. 

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

How many people have that prominent of a wrinkle line central to their left brow, let alone in the SAME family?  That is a very distinguishing characteristic.  Who else in their family line who has a prominent wrinkle line in that location would be so proudly worn from generation to generation in important family pictures and weddings?   Makes no sense that it would be anyone else

that same wrinkle line exists in the painting, it's almost dead center, but it's not in the photo and it wouldn't be in the death mask

These are two totally different people, simple as. We won't even get into Joseph's hair color, which is different than the man in the photo has.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

Seems like a new one shows up every couple of years.
Apparently Joseph was photographed more than the Kardashians...

This one is plausible, but there's no guarantee it's any more accurate than the others.

[JAHS]

32 minutes ago, Duncan said:

That's what I am saying the noses are all different. I couldn't be less convinced it's the same person. I would love to see these photos of these women supposedly wearing it. How does Lachlan Mackay know that? it seems fishy. What I find odd or creepy is Bertha Madison Smith wearing a photo of her father in law, why would she do that? 

“The locket shows up on prominent Smith family women through the years,” Mackay said. Bertha Madison Smith, who married one of Joseph Jr. and Emma’s sons, wore it in a portrait in 1869. In 1875, a granddaughter wore it in her wedding portrait, in which the locket was hanging from a chain."

Here's a photo pf Emeline Griswold Smith who was also one of Joseph Smith III wife. Looks like she is wearing a locket in this photo. Can't tell if it's the same one.

.

[Duncan]

6 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's a photo pf Emeline Griswold Smith who was also one of Joseph Smith III wife. Looks like she is wearing a locket in this photo. Can't tell if it's the same one.

.

exactly, who can tell what , if any, photo is in it. it's far too blurry

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I did read the article and I even quoted from it.

 

I am not accusing them of lying but showing people these photos would help.

 

but why not someone else? it doesn't have to be Joseph Smith. Until those photos show up of them wearing it, it seems a big hole in the story

 

"believed" by people that want the story to be true though. For all we know they want notoriety, knowing that no other credible photo exists. Is there any documentary evidence he even sat for a photo? 

This doesn't help the case , that the article mentions because I read it, that Foster set up his photo shop until after Joseph's death in June. As I say it would help to see some evidence that Foster even took the photo. All that exists is circumstantial evidence that it is Joseph Smith, aside from the fact it doesn't look like him. 

that same wrinkle line exists in the painting, it's almost dead center, but not in the photo and it wouldn't in the death mask

Seeing the photos would help, I agree.  But the fact that we have the testimony of 2 credible eyewitnesses to the pictures is evidence enough for me.  If it was just one guy making the claim who had something to gain from it - I might question it more.  It is just unlikely that they would conspire up a story like that and place their credibility and reputation on the line with no monetary motivation to do so.

Yes, it is “the same”.  That is what I am saying.  It is definitely left of center in both the photo and painting.  It is not a common location for a prominent wrinkle like that.   None of his sons have anything like it in any pictures.  It doesn’t even closely resemble any of his offspring.  Who else could it possibly be?

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Seeing the photos would help, I agree.  But the fact that we have the testimony of 2 credible eyewitnesses to the pictures is evidence enough for me.  If it was just one guy making the claim who had something to gain from it - I might question it more.  It is just unlikely that they would conspire up a story like that and place their credibility and reputation on the line with no monetary motivation to do so.

Yes, it is “the same”.  That is what I am saying.  It is definitely left of center in both the photo and painting.  It is not a common location for a prominent wrinkle like that.   None of his sons have anything like it in any pictures.  It doesn’t even closely resemble any of his offspring.  Who else could it possibly be?

credible eyewitnesses provided by the people that found it, big cause for pause- where are these eyewitness testimonies written down? why not provide the public with what these eyewitnesses said and where they said it. Where are these photos of them wearing it, big holes here. Foster didn't set up shop until August 1844, after Joseph's death. The man in the photo doesn't have a wrinkle in the center or a prominent one at that. the painting certainly does. So far, no eyewitnesses, no photo evidence of them wearing it-which doesn't prove anyways it's Joseph Smith anyways, any written proof that Foster took a photo of Joseph Smith? the hair is different-. There needs to be more evidence coming forth to convince.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

credible eyewitnesses provided by the people that found it, big cause for pause- where are these eyewitness testimonies written down? why not provide the public with what these eyewitnesses said and where they said it. Where are these photos of them wearing it, big holes here. Foster didn't set up shop until August 1844, after Joseph's death. The man in the photo doesn't have a wrinkle in the center or a prominent one at that. the painting certainly does. So far, no eyewitnesses, no photo evidence of them wearing it-which doesn't prove anyways it's Joseph Smith anyways, any written proof that Foster took a photo of Joseph Smith? the hair is different-. There needs to be more evidence coming forth to convince.

There is an article in the John Whitmer Historical Association journal, which I believe has more details. Do you have access to that?

https://www.jwha.info

Edited July 21, 2022 by Calm

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is an article in the John Whitmer Historical Association journal, which I believe has more details. Do you have access to that?

https://www.jwha.info

Looks like they want you to pay $15 to read the JWHA Journal article

[Calm]

More info:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/at-long-last-a-photo-of-mormon-founder-joseph-smith-emerges/ar-AAZPwYz?

The locket and picture date to the right time. 
 

“Larsen reached out to Mackay, his nephew, who oversees Joseph Smith historic sites in Nauvoo, and the two then enlisted the help of Ronald Romig, who has spent three decades studying Smith family visual materials.

Together, they examined the photograph, using facial recognition software to compare it to the 1842 portrait by David Rogers, along with Smith’s death mask.

Thinking it could be a different Smith relative — Joseph’s brother Hyrum, for instance, who was gunned down the same day as the church founder — or some other member of the extended clan, the team looked for photographic evidence of any other potential candidates, Mackay said, but found none that fit the time frame.

They came across a May 1844 advertisement in a Latter-day Saint newspaper for lockets that included daguerreotypes, according to the newly published journal article, and multiple photos of prominent Smith women wearing what appears to be the locket.

Those helped answer the key question (that was missing or deceptive in Mark Hofmann’s murderous forgery case😞 provenance or a record of ownership.

To Mackay’s wife, Christin Mackay, president of the John Whitmer Historical Association who was tasked with looking for those photos, the role of women proved significant.

“What makes the locket compelling to me is that it was apparently passed down through the women in the family,” she said. “Emma was incredibly protective of Joseph’s image and not wanting it to be associated with polygamy. When someone asked to copy the [Rogers] portrait of Joseph, she declined and kept the portrait in her bedroom out of public view.”

The historian believes Emma handed down the daguerreotype through the women “because they wouldn’t be asked about it,” Christin Mackay said, while “Joseph III and his brothers would be.”

For generations, the Smith women “hid the locket in plain sight,” she said. “Frederick Madison Smith had only daughters, which may be why one of them [Lois] ended up with the locket.”

Still, Latter-day Saint officials urge caution.

“Every few years, potential donors bring artifacts to the Church History Library for review, including alleged photographs of the prophet Joseph Smith,” church spokesperson Kelly Smoot said Thursday. “Such artifacts are, of course, of great interest to the church.”

Though it was not mentioned specifically in the journal article, Latter-day Saint “historians, archivists and artifact experts were provided — by the item’s owner and the article’s authors — the opportunity to analyze the locket and photo and to review their findings prior to publication,” Smoot said in an emailed statement. “We concur that the daguerreotype and locket were created of the materials and methods appropriate to the 1840s. However, as nothing is definitively known about the locket’s history before 1992, we cannot draw a conclusion about who is pictured in the daguerreotype.””

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

My guess is the journal article has the pictures of the women wearing the locket.  I asked the friend who knows the historians working on this to report if there is additional documentation in the article when he has time (he got it today).

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[Duncan]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

There is an article in the John Whitmer Historical Association journal, which I believe has more details. Do you have access to that?

https://www.jwha.info

I don't! Thank you for the link!

[Calm]

Not sure you should be so grateful since it requires a fee. If you decide to buy it, share details please.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

Never thought I'd see this day, if true.

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The only thing that doesn't look quite right to me is the length and prominence of the nose, and possibly the skin around the mouth and chin.  The Daguerreotype makes him appear to be older around the mouth and chin (it looks like sagging skin), perhaps more than for someone who is 38 years old, and I'm comparing that to the death mask.  But I know from personal experiences in doing life masks that making a casting of a face tends to compress the skin a lot, so maybe that is the reason for the difference.   But the bone structure at the top of the nose and eye sockets looks exactly like the death mask:

 

 

The cheekbones chin and lips on the painting of Joseph look strikingly similar to cheekbones, chin and lips on the death mask. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by teddyaware

[jcake]

Hasn't this same photo shown up in the past and been disproven? It would be cool if it were really Joseph Smith, but I'll wait until more is known.

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, jcake said:

Hasn't this same photo shown up in the past and been disproven? It would be cool if it were really Joseph Smith, but I'll wait until more is known.

There have been others, but not this one.

[JAHS]

51 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The cheekbones chin and lips on the painting of Joseph look strikingly similar to cheekbones, chin and lips on the death mask. 

On the painting the ear lobes stop above the tip of the nose but on the daguerreotype they go down past the tip of the nose and are not the same shape. Of course the painting might just  not be very accurate for that feature.