Change to handbook, 19.3.6 RE: music in sacrament mtg

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Navidad said:

Is there never any acapella singing of hymns in the LDS church?

Do you mean congregational singing or special performances in front of the congregation?

At our last stake conference I was part of a men’s double quartet that sang “Nearer, My God, to Thee” without accompaniment. 
 

When I was ward choir director, I quite often led us in singing portions of pieces, if not in entirety, a cappella. 

[Kenngo1969]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 ... I thought of this one day in priesthood meeting. I don’t remember how long ago, now, but I know it has been at least a couple of years, because it predated the COVID shutdowns. ...

We've been dealing with this crap that long, now?!     

P.S.: I'd like to set the record for the most emoticons (each being different) used at the end of a post.  Do you think I'm close?  (Except ... crap, now that I added my "P.S.," that isn't the end of my post!  Oh, well! )

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

We had ‘Mary did you know’ sung Sunday. My spouse despises that song. He says, the scriptures are quite clear that Mary knew. She saw an angel and all that. 
 

I do think it makes it challenging for Bishops to approve songs. I was in wards where hymn book only was a thing for sacrament meeting. 

LDS scriptures and uniqueness are based on the reality of the appearance to and communication with Joseph Smith by angels, OT and NT saints, and the Father and Son. At the time of each of these events did he know what was to come in the future? Did he know the details? Did he know the details of how the LDS church would develop? Did he know how his own life would develop? When he had the first vision did he know that some time in the future he would translate the Book of Mormon? Did he know the details of future revelations, his death, who would succeed him? Wasn't he about the same age as Mary when she first learned of her calling?

Did he know all the future revelations contained in the D&C? I don't think so. I also don't think Mary knew any of the details of what was to come as the birth mother of Immanuel - God with us, His death on the cross, His resurrection, etc. In fact, after all the visits, supernatural revelations, scriptures, etc. as put forth in the LDS system of beliefs,  I doubt that even the most faithful LDS church member knows the details of what is yet to come.  For whatever it is worth, I love the words to the song. Of course I personally know Mark Lowry, the writer of the words, so I confess to a certain bias. I believe the words came to him in a sort of a revelation on a touring bus one evening. That is another story.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Navidad

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you mean congregational singing or special performances in front of the congregation?

At our last stake conference I was part of a men’s double quartet that sang “Nearer, My God, to Thee” without accompaniment. 
 

When I was ward choir director, I quite often led us in singing portions of pieces, if not in entirety, a cappella. 

I was specifically thinking of congregational singing. But I enjoy a capella special songs as well. Home Free is my very favorite singing group! We have traveled miles to attend their concerts. I love to listen also to the young folks of the various LDS acapella groups as well. Wonderful music.

[bsjkki]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

LDS scriptures and uniqueness are based on the reality of the appearance to and communication with Joseph Smith by angels, OT and NT saints, and the Father and Son. At the time of each of these events did he know what was to come in the future? Did he know the details? Did he know the details of how the LDS church would develop? Did he know how his own life would develop? When he had the first vision did he know that some time in the future he would translate the Book of Mormon? Did he know the details of future revelations, his death, who would succeed him? Wasn't he about the same age as Mary when she first learned of her calling?

Did he know all the future revelations contained in the D&C? I don't think so. I also don't think Mary knew any of the details of what was to come as the birth mother of Immanuel - God with us, His death on the cross, His resurrection, etc. In fact, after all the visits, supernatural revelations, scriptures, etc. as put forth in the LDS system of beliefs,  I doubt that even the most faithful LDS church member knows the details of what is to come.  For whatever it is worth, I love the words to the song. Of course I personally know Mark Lowry, the writer of the words, so I confess to a certain bias. I believe the words came to him in a sort of a revelation on a touring bus one evening. That is another story.

It is a well loved song by many. A favorite. LDS teachings have nothing to do with the song's controversies. It is all right there in Luke. The composer is good natured about the criticism...which comes from many different faith beliefs. 'Mary Did You Know' writer Mark Lowry good-natured over song's controversy (religionnews.com)

"But that phrase has gotten Lowry in trouble in recent years — seen as a kind of theological mansplaining.Listeners have complained that, yes, Mary knew that she was going to bear the Messiah, the promised salvation of Israel, and that, therefore, the rhetorical question upon which the song rests is either redundant or condescending,” author Joy Clarkson, host of the “Speaking with Joy” podcast, wrote in a 2018 article entitled, “Yes, Mary Knew.” That phrase has also inspired a series of sarcastic social media posts. “Mary did you know … that there’s a boy on his way to gift your newborn with a drum solo,” tweeted author and pastor Courtney Ellis. “Mary did you know we’ve been trying to reach you about your extended warranty,” tweeted Texas attorney Robert Callahan II. There’s even apparently a satire of the song, entitled “Mary Freaking Knew.” Lowry is pretty good-natured about the criticism of the song. He’s quick to admit it has shortcomings — which he thinks are more evident to his fellow Christians who are more familiar with theology than the average person who hears the song. The last thing he wanted to do was to insult Mary or anger his fellow believers. “I never meant for it to start a war or irritate people,” he said. “I definitely didn’t want that.”  ...

“I hope the song makes people think about the baby Jesus,” he said. “I hope it sends them running to Luke 1 to find out what Mary knew.”

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

We've been dealing with this crap that long, now?!     

It gives a new meaning to the letters "BC".

 

[InCognitus]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

I sang Come Thou Fount and Hie to Kolob in a sacrament service trio. Also sang a solo version of "Birthday of a King" one of my favorite Christmas songs in a Christmas sacrament meeting. With all due respect, our congregational singing is pretty bad. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. We sang a hymn this past Sunday that right there in the hymnbook said "Brightly" at the top left of the page. It was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I have only ever been to a sacrament service in two wards. Both of them were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! Is there never any acapella singing of hymns in the LDS church? That is a great tradition I miss. Sometimes my posts are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!

Your post reminded me of a Google search screen shot my daughter saved from around 2008.   Note Google's response:  "Did you mean.."?  (Apparently she didn't have the correct number of repetitions of the letter "o") :

Edited December 29, 2021 by InCognitus

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, Navidad said:

LDS scriptures and uniqueness are based on the reality of the appearance to and communication with Joseph Smith by angels, OT and NT saints, and the Father and Son. At the time of each of these events did he know what was to come in the future? Did he know the details? Did he know the details of how the LDS church would develop? Did he know how his own life would develop? When he had the first vision did he know that some time in the future he would translate the Book of Mormon? Did he know the details of future revelations, his death, who would succeed him? Wasn't he about the same age as Mary when she first learned of her calling?

Did he know all the future revelations contained in the D&C? I don't think so. I also don't think Mary knew any of the details of what was to come as the birth mother of Immanuel - God with us, His death on the cross, His resurrection, etc. In fact, after all the visits, supernatural revelations, scriptures, etc. as put forth in the LDS system of beliefs,  I doubt that even the most faithful LDS church member knows the details of what is yet to come.  For whatever it is worth, I love the words to the song. Of course I personally know Mark Lowry, the writer of the words, so I confess to a certain bias. I believe the words came to him in a sort of a revelation on a touring bus one evening. That is another story.

I think it is pretty evident that she knew that he was the promised Messiah.  She had the angel reveal to her much and she had further confirmation when she visited Elizabeth, and further still with the visitation of the shepherds come to witness the birth of their Lord...  She also had the prophecy of Simeon and at some point later the visitation of the wise men.  I think it is evident that she knew the basics.   She may not have known all the details in the song of causing blind to see, how he would die, etc. but she knew that he was the son of God and that he "would one day rule the nations", etc. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by pogi

[Fether]

18 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

at least now I can feel good about playing "come thou font" in sacrament

I do love a good song about fonts

[InCognitus]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

I do love a good song about fonts

Do you prefer sans seraph fonts , or with seraph(im)?

[Fether]

8 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Do you prefer sans seraph fonts , or with seraph(im)?

If you could play a song about Comic Sans, I would be ecstatic! But that may be a little too irreverent for sacrament meeting.

[Stargazer]

43 minutes ago, Fether said:

I do love a good song about fonts

I don't care what anyone says, I still like "Comic Sans".

[Peacefully]

11 hours ago, Navidad said:

I sang Come Thou Fount and Hie to Kolob in a sacrament service trio. Also sang a solo version of "Birthday of a King" one of my favorite Christmas songs in a Christmas sacrament meeting. With all due respect, our congregational singing is pretty bad. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. We sang a hymn this past Sunday that right there in the hymnbook said "Brightly" at the top left of the page. It was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I have only ever been to a sacrament service in two wards. Both of them were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! Is there never any acapella singing of hymns in the LDS church? That is a great tradition I miss. Sometimes my posts are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo longgggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg!

I learned to sing a capella in the Church of Christ. We even used shape note hymnals, but I learned to read music in band so I didn’t really use the shape notes. When I go home for a funeral we get to sing some of the old hymns a capella. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Peacefully

[Navidad]

38 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I learned to sing a capella in the Church of Christ. We even used shape note hymnals, but I learned to read music in band so I didn’t really use the shape notes. When I go home for a funeral we get to sing some of the old hymns a capella. 

Did you ever see the movie Cold Mountain? It features Church of Christ or Baptist groups singing shape notes. I loved that part of the movie.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Navidad

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I do love a good song about fonts

You guys are brutal.  

[HappyJackWagon]

The issue of music in the church interests me because it has long been a problem for me personally. Musical preferences that made their way into the handbook and/or popular LDS culture have felt very limiting and dismissive of very valid modes of worship. Personally, the organ and MoTab put me to sleep. Sure, I like some of the hymns and I enjoy singing them on occasion but there is so much more out there that has just been ignored or even vilified as improper, unrighteous/unsacred, or irreverent. But these are largely personal preferences of some leaders from yester-year that now feel to many like doctrine. IMO it has caused LDS church services to become stagnant as everything fits into a proper little cookie-cutter.

Music is just one example of personal preferences of leaders directing the course of worship for every member. I would love to see worship services evolve into expressions of worship that fit a broader community and is welcoming to different styles. For example, audio-visual could help improve services just as they add interest during conference talks. More upbeat music would be wonderful. And frankly removing "meeting" from Sacrament meeting would be fantastic. I like that the church seems to be more open to changes. Once leaders adopt changes it will then take the congregants a while to accept those, but it's a journey worth taking.

[MrShorty]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

Time to bust out the ol' banjo!

As one who rather enjoys country and bluegrass gospel music, I could get behind this movement. However, I suspect that, as with the prior handbook version, leadership roulette is still in play, so it would depend on whether or not my bishop would be on board.

However, it does make me wonder who is going to be the first bishop to have a Reverend Lovejoy moment, "Wait a minute! This sounds like Rock and/or Roll!"

If I want to take the whole thing seriously, though, it makes me ask myself the question, "Is there any musical instrument or style that just cannot be spiritual?" While, personally,  I prefer classical or country/bluegrass for my spiritual music, I recognize it as my own artistic preference, and not some kind of eternal truth. How far will we go with this? Are we really going to open up our choices for music in sacrament meeting, or is this mostly a change in wording but not a real change in beliefs/attitudes?

[HappyJackWagon]

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

As one who rather enjoys country and bluegrass gospel music, I could get behind this movement. However, I suspect that, as with the prior handbook version, leadership roulette is still in play, so it would depend on whether or not my bishop would be on board.

However, it does make me wonder who is going to be the first bishop to have a Reverend Lovejoy moment, "Wait a minute! This sounds like Rock and/or Roll!"

If I want to take the whole thing seriously, though, it makes me ask myself the question, "Is there any musical instrument or style that just cannot be spiritual?" While, personally,  I prefer classical or country/bluegrass for my spiritual music, I recognize it as my own artistic preference, and not some kind of eternal truth. How far will we go with this? Are we really going to open up our choices for music in sacrament meeting, or is this mostly a change in wording but not a real change in beliefs/attitudes?

Personally, I'd have a problem with death metal and I'd prefer not to have rap, yet we do allow for poetry to be read, so...

I also think the genre could be influenced by the theme and/or placement of the music within the service. For example, it would be unlikely to have anything fast paced leading into the sacrament, but a fast-paced song may be great to end the service and send people on their merry way feeling the enthusiasm of the spirit.

[Amulek]

20 hours ago, BRMC said:

Interesting.  We've had a variety of instruments in our Christmas service, and others, including a trombone.

In the states this would be a rarity, as (up until this latest revision) brass and percussion were both specifically listed as not being appropriate for sacrament meetings - even though, technically, the piano is a percussion instrument. But whatevs.

I think it's good that the handbook has been modified to better accommodate other cultures. In practice, however, I suspect it won't have much effect here in the states.

 

[Amulek]

18 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yes, I know you said it's not this one, so I apologize for the irrelevant, irreverent diversion, but I couldn't resist!

Most overrated song of all time.

Yeah, I said it. #SorryNotSorry

 

[rongo]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I don't care what anyone says, I still like "Comic Sans".

My kids had to point out that the "papyrus" at the end is in Comic Sans.  

 

I have noticed Comic Sans in business signage around, now that "I now know." Also, my kids pointed out that our district's busses use Times New Roman. I never used to notice fonts before. 

[Amulek]

14 hours ago, Navidad said:

Also sang a solo version of "Birthday of a King" one of my favorite Christmas songs in a Christmas sacrament meeting. With all due respect, our congregational singing is pretty bad. Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. We sang a hymn this past Sunday that right there in the hymnbook said "Brightly" at the top left of the page. It was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I have only ever been to a sacrament service in two wards. Both of them were sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

This is not uncommon - largely because the Venn diagram of (1) people who can play the piano/organ and are (2) cable of coming to church early (3) every Sunday and (4) able to sit on the stand away from their families tends to intersect squarely on elderly women who just can't keep the tempo like they used to. 

As a long time percussionist, I can say that starting out slow and then dragging ever slower is one of my musical pet peeves.

That being said, every time I start to feel this way I simply remind myself of how much better Sister So-and-so is doing than I could do in her place. And if she isn't an amazing instrumentalist, she's likely doing the best she can - and doing so completely thanklessly I might add.

Seriously, it's not like any musician can get up and perform in front of a room full of people and not know that they are playing too slowly or making any number of other mistakes. They know. And they still get up there every week - even though they know almost everyone in the congregation is siting there thinking that they aren't doing a good enough job. It's kind of heartbreaking when you think of it like that.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by Amulek

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

We had ‘Mary did you know’ sung Sunday. My spouse despises that song. He says, the scriptures are quite clear that Mary knew. She saw an angel and all that.

Count me in with your spouse and @bluebell on that one. The song has got too much of a condescending vibe for my liking.

 

Quote

I do think it makes it challenging for Bishops to approve songs. I was in wards where hymn book only was a thing for sacrament meeting. 

I think the Hymnal-only movement was sort of a push-back against all of that Janice Crap Perry stuff that was gaining popularity several years ago. I'm fine with them laying off the brakes a bit, but there's still a lot of "popular" stuff that you might find at Deseret Book that I still wouldn't want to listen to at church.

 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And if she isn't an amazing instrumentalist, she's likely doing the best she can - and doing so completely thanklessly, I might add.

My mom was one of those making the sacrifice. And it wasn’t easy as she was a perfectionist, but never had enough warning or time to practice as much as she wanted. So it is easy for me not to be annoyed.

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Did you ever see the movie Cold Mountain? It features Church of Christ or Baptist groups singing shape notes. I loved that part of the movie.

I don’t think so but I will have to check it out:)